Iran and Pakistan from an Afghan prospective

[Nick]

welcome Nick.

you said Iran is our 2nd enemy who is our 1st? Pakistan?

I am interested in your views now.

I will appreciate you starting two separate threads explaining your stance on those 2 countries or the Afghan enemies.


I look forward to your contributions welcome here.

I created this topic for one friend who seems to be interested in the above topic, or maybe the reasons behind my claim.

Before I start I would like to have a general understand of the environment. In terms peoples personal believe towards these two nation.




Therefore I would like to have your views regarding these 2 countries.
It doesn't have to be formal just few general point-form lines would be enough.



For those who lack history behind their creation or general knowledge of their geographical locations, religion, or politics may request for Further Info.



BTW PLEASE NOTE I AM TALKING IN TERMS OF NATION-STATE , NOT Its individuals.

[Talal]

^ You mistake our goodwill for something else..we aren't on "our knees" for anything. We simply want good relations and a stable Afghanistan because as a Muslim nation thats what we should aspire Afghanistan to be, a stable and prosperous country. But where did you get the idea that we "are on our knees". I didnt want to drag these kind of comments in here but when people here make silly remarks then it does inflame

As one top-level Afghan official said, wryly, "We love India, but we fear Pakistan. That is a stronger emotion.''

Times of India

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/Is-Indias-neighbourhood-set-to-get-even-more-dangerous/articleshow/5541012.cms

[Talal]

^Pakistan is on its knees because its scared of a stable and friendly Afghanistan especially if its an ally with India. Who is Pakistan to decide the fate of Afghanistan? Lets not derail this thread and wait for Nicks reply before you respond.

I think you didnt read the comment made by one of your officials

As one top-level Afghan official said, wryly, "We love India, but we fear Pakistan. That is a stronger emotion.''

Whose on knees ?

I am not derailing this thread but merely pointing out the facts, i had no intention of posting that comment but the "attitude" forced me to clear our position in regards to Afghanistan. We aren't on our knees, never were and never will be infront of anyone, the government might be a US puppet but they have seen what the people will do to the government if they sideline national interests.

I posted a quote from an Afghan Official, if you have something like that then post it, otherwise refrain from making inflammatory remarks. And like i said Afghan intelligence is already on Indian payroll and India for one has realised that attacking us through Afghanistan will only hurt them. We did to the taliban in one year what 40 nations couldnt do in 10 years, so please keep this discussion to facts that are realistic. Again dont make inflammatory comments without any proof.

[Talal]

^Strategic depth speaks for itself.

Oh the irony! You killed your own frankenstein, oooh ! I am impressed. Try that on someone else.

Pakistani officials FEAR AFGHANISTAN and you can research on this if you are educated enough.

Leave it at this and wait for Nicks post.

I will not reply to you any further since you are begging the question and going in circles.

perhaps i am not educated enough, but you seem to allude to the fact that you infact have done the research so how about you present it here ? and you made a statement and then i made a statement and backed it up... honestly there couldnt be a more baltant statement to disillusion you than this statement about the ground realities

As one top-level Afghan official said, wryly, "We love India, but we fear Pakistan. That is a stronger emotion.''

I posted it again because i think you might have looked over it, nevertheless i await yours and nicks research

[Talal]

^ Nick didnt make that statement about us being on our knees lol, you did..its not nicks job to cover for you is it ? .. I did my research and i think you saw that research "twice' how about sharing some of yours

[Talal]

^ yh sure next time just dont make statements that tend to inflame, because that does derail the thread.

[kunar1990]

^ yh sure next time just dont make statements that tend to inflame, because that does derail the thread.

What do you expect? You are after all on a pashtun forum and the majority of us don't like your Punjabistan.

[Nick]

I am so sorry My friends. I had some things to do and therefore for this topic I had no time to visit. Well For me I have been on this Battle for some time. I openly discuss things, as long as things go formal, and nothing personal. Although this topic is a bit of sore due to the fact, we are all considered <Muslims> and therefore must be Brothers and sisters, which is true to some extend. However when comes to Land/Power mixed with politics that’s when even a brother ready to kill another blood brother, I have seen it like many other Afghans, our world was divided fights happening in our own families, where Politics was the main cause father vs son and Brother vs Brother, uncle vs uncle and father vs uncle. It was either warlords, or Hezb from which you had to choose.

Pakistan at its Present State, and influence over Pashtuns.
Personally as I tried to explained I have no problem with the majority of people supporting Pakistan ie Punjabis/Sindhis/Mahajurs, as this Pakistan we know today has truly been considered their homeland, even for some few Afghan race despite being less then 3 million, which we often consider “Lost Pashtuns” mainly in the city of Karachi, Hyderabad and Rahulpindi, and other places of Punjab/Sindh where its traditionally home of Hindu-Muslim Culture, is now home to Pashtuns as well.
I guess you could argue that NWFP also has Punjabis thanks pre-plan of British which completed by 1970s the policy of “State-fund” for those willing to move into NWFP, vis-versa Pashtuns must sign-up for Pakistanis Passport in order to due Business in Karachi, although this sound weird to us that how would a country would ask its citizens to have passport in order to travel from one city to another. Imagine you need Passport to go from NY into LA or from Kabul into Julalabad. Well in those days of 1960-70s it was a problem because British never enforced such policy other than the Business Card which you had to buy for cheap price and did your everyday business (Although some argues that Card was removed in much of India under the Government of India Act 1935 but not in all areas specially areas presenting a threat to British Raj, therefore it was still required until 1947) Anyways for Pakistan forcing Afghans to applying for Pakistani citizenship was an excuse in making sure they have full control of those who don’t accept Pakistan, which mainly included Eastern Pakistan, NWFP, and Baluchistan. In the 1970s-1980s Pakistani export was at its highest, and also had greatest number of Manpower amongst the Islamic nations, and travelling abroad meant Business, and jobs, therefore Pashtun were even under more pressure to accept Pakistani Passports, and gain VISA to travel abroad such as to Dubai, UAE etc etc.




Pakistan vs Afghanistan
Pakistan from day one was never favoured by Afghans, to many Punjabis/Sindhis 1947 was the lucky year but for many Afghans it was a sad year. In fact this is why many Afghans blamed Zahir Shah for being a “Sleepy King” because he had enough power to use it, and what you know he was in Italy watching horse racing. He had many excuse for not attacking Pakistan, such as obeying Ghaffar Khan’s request in 1946 not to interfere and his empathy for Hindu Muslim of India having their own Islamic nation, Badshah Khan warned “If British saw such action from Afghanistan their policy could change, the request also made by Gandhi himself and the other excuse was b) British was still active until 1956. I personally think Zahir Shah was scared that his new agreement with Western nations could be in jeopardy or scared of another British invasion. What-ever the excuses maybe the one simple fact that most Afghans do share is that Zahir was asleep, its like he wasn’t even alive, representing Afghanistan, we all agree this one word “Go” mean all tribes ready to attack, and would of taken our land back and free from British, but many argue, how come Nader shah didn’t make this move, how come others before them made no attempt to retake what has been ours, many from Government side say “Wasn’t attack of 1919 enough” I personally would say “NO”. Indeed this was curse which Afghans still feel that being selfish as we were before creation of Pakistan, now we suffer and once a nation under our own hands is now threaten us, taken our land and present itself as a menace towards Afghan sovereignty. Indeed A salute to British for creating such monster, a nation acting like a Kufar, but goes by the name of Islamic Republic, Indeed a Salute to its creator.

[Nick]

Well what about our enemy number 2 yep Regarding Iran. Ok Well this is so tricky, but I hope my Shia Brothers are not hurt because most of the times we can't even talk about Iran because our Rich/wealthy Ismaili and Shia brothers always get upset and reject my views. If you guys are here stay come please.

[inqilab]

Iran Helped Invade Afghanistan

This is an old article but exposes the treacherous Iranis

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-06-09-iran-taliban_x.htm

Members of Iran's Revolutionary Guards fought alongside and advised the Afghan rebels who helped U.S. forces topple Afghanistan's Taliban regime in the months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the guards' former leader says.
In an interview by e-mail, Mohsen Rezaie, a candidate in Iran's presidential elections next week, says the United States has not given Iran enough credit. He says Iran played an "important role in the overthrow of the Taliban" in 2001 (Related: Full text of interview).
Even before U.S. forces entered Afghanistan, Iran backed the Northern Alliance, a loose coalition of warlords and militias from the Tajik, Uzbek and Hazara minorities. The alliance fought the ruling Taliban, a regime dominated by majority Pashtuns that imposed a harsh Sunni Islamic government.
Current and former U.S. troops and officials confirm Iranians were present with the Northern Alliance as U.S. forces organized the rebels in 2001. They say U.S. forces had no interaction with the Iranians. They deny the Iranians made meaningful contributions on the battlefield.
Rezaie is the first to claim that Iran played a key role in capturing the Afghan capital, Kabul, at the climax of the war.
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman says he has "no knowledge of (Iranian) assistance." The CIA refused to comment.
Former CIA Afghan team leader Gary Schroen says there were two Iranian guard colonels attached to a Northern Alliance commander, Bismullah Khan, outside Kabul when U.S. Special Forces arrived in September 2001.
Schroen, author of First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan, says, "There was never any (U.S.) interaction (with the Iranians), but we saw them." He downplayed the Iranian role.
"We knew they were on the ground," says John McLaughlin, former deputy director of the CIA.
Two officers who served with Task Force Dagger, the Special Forces group that conducted the first U.S. military operations in Afghanistan, say they knew Iranian agents or troops were present.
One, an Army Special Forces officer, says Iranians in the Northern Alliance stronghold of Mazar-e-Sharif were sabotaging U.S. efforts by competing for the loyalty of local warlords. An Army Special Forces battalion commander says he encountered an Iranian intelligence agent in Kunduz, scene of one of the war's biggest battles. A third Army officer says U.S. forces reported the presence of Iranians in the city of Herat with alliance leader and warlord Ismail Khan. All three spoke on condition they not be named.
Predominantly Shiite Iran nearly went to war against the Taliban after the massacre of Afghan Shiites and nine Iranians in Mazar-e-Sharif in 1998.
The Bush administration became the prime backer of the Northern Alliance after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told CBS' Face the Nation on Nov. 11, 2001, two days before the fall of Kabul, that there were places in Afghanistan "where there are some Iranian liaison people, as well as some American liaison people" working with the same Afghan forces.
James Dobbins, a former State Department official who worked with diplomats from Iran and other Afghan neighbors to create the first post-Taliban government, says the Iranians "were equipping and paying the Northern Alliance. Russia and India were also helping, but at the time, Iran was the most active."
It is unclear how many Iranians were present at the fall of Kabul. Rezaie says "some" guard commanders were there. "They were special forces for urban warfare (with) experience ... during the Iran-Iraq War (1980-88). They were very effective and active ... but American Army propaganda quickly claimed most of these achievements in its own name."
The Bush administration would have been loath to praise the Iranians, in particular the Revolutionary Guards. The guards are Iran's main vehicle for supporting groups the United States regards as terrorists, such as Hezbollah in Lebanon, says Kenneth Katzman, an Iran expert at the Congressional Research Service in Washington.
In 2002, President Bush labeled Iran a member of an "axis of evil" along with Iraq and North Korea.
After the fall of the Taliban, Iran offered to help train and equip a new Afghan army, Dobbins says. The offer was rebuffed by the Bush administration, which accused Tehran of giving safe passage to fleeing members of al-Qaeda, backing Palestinian militants and trying to develop nuclear weapons.
Rezaie, 50, one of eight candidates permitted to run by Iran's clerical regime, appeared to be underlining Iran's role to draw attention to his candidacy and show a desire to improve relations with the United States. Other candidates in the election, including the front-runner, former president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, promise they would improve ties broken 25 years ago while Iran was holding U.S. diplomats hostage.
Rezaie says that "everything is possible" to restore relations. He praised the late Ronald Reagan and former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright for reaching out to Iran and says, "If they (the Americans) make us a rational offer," he will push for closer cooperation.
Contributing: Sean D. Naylor of Army Times, an independent publication owned by Gannett

[inqilab]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdF5aWC0yNc

Iran helped USA to invade Afghanistan and Iraq

[Nick]

This is the truth here.

I am Iranian and Ive heard the rich run the show.

What brought you to the conclusion with Pakistan?

can you add more about Iran.

Iran vs Afghanistan

There is two things that Afghans and Iranians fight about.
First History, second is more dangerous yep Shia vs Sunni.

History of Afghanistan according to Iranians.
Iran and Afghanistan in myth seemed to have shared a lot. According to the Iranian myth, Iran and Afghanistan was one nation, one race, one culture, one language and same religion. This feeling is mainly strong and accepted amongst Iranians who feels that this “Afghanistan” was a region which once known as Khorasan (Proso-Arabic directional name meaning “From Direction where the sun rises). In this Myth a mixture of reality exists but much of it is considered “Shia Bul****”

According to the Myth that there was once upon a time lived a country called Iran yes it still exists as Iran, but long long long long ago before creation of Afghanistan that this Iran was much bigger. Did you know why? Because they had a big province called Khorasan, “Arryee Agha derogh nemegam Afghanistan mal-e-Iran buzurg bood” . In this Iran-e-Buzurg or Greater Iran there lived a greater Khorasan (Check Best BS Wikipedia and search for Khorasan). This mythical Khorasan province was a huge province so big that it was two and half times bigger then modern size of Iran and 10 times bigger then Ancient “Parsia” from Kashmir up to Mashad and from Nukus upto Qalat was to be considered Khorasan. Full of Iranians, everything was Iranian from Food, to Art and even Cats, cows and dogs had Iranian names wow, this was where the birth of Farsi language came about, in fact many historical Islamic Art, minaret, and Islamic poetry all came from Iran in the greater province of Iran called Khorasan. Khorasan was the biggest Province Iran ever ever ever had(Fact is they never had any until 1820), compare to Karman, it had 100 times more population, yes that was huge Imagine Iran not being 79 million but rather 190 million Wow to that.

This I hope understand is a Myth, but this Myth like the mythical book of Shahnameh is actually considered to be truth. So truthful that Iranians in modern times place Shahnameh and Quran and say “Happy nowroz” to each-other. Imagine what would happen if you decline to accept their Myths wow it won’t be Good.
According to the Iranian myth, Iran and Afghanistan was one nation, one race, one culture, one language and same religion. This is a wrong myth and everything goes back to claiming the language, Iranian truly have handled to convince the world that Dari belongs to them, but the actual truth still declines their claim, after all Dari was first coined by Afghans, and it belongs to all nations not to parsis just because Arabs happens to call it “Farsi” doesn’t meant it was from Pars. This is the truth. As far as facts are considered Iranians and Afghans share nothing other then Language, and that too did not came from Pars. Culture? Maybe Nowroz but again that too was originally from Afghanistan.

So Long story short, Iranians thinks they are the modern fathers of our history. Afghans on the other hand reject this, one of the biggest rejections was to bringing down of Iranica in Germany, challenged by Afghans which in return made it let lose in many of the European nations which considered Iranica to be very reliable. Amongst the rejected books and writers regarding Afghanistan included Jalah Amouzgar, Feridun Adamiyat, and Azartesh Azarnos, these writers have been considered as primary source in many western books published regarding Afghanistan. In the past 35 years Iranians have published so much of **** that I personally think, that it will take another 35 years to remove/fixed all of those created and then challenging the westerners to remove it from their library shelves.



Aside from all this, Iran and Afghans have fought biggest wars after Karbala wars, in fact since history dates Iranians have always been Shia and Afghans have always been Sunni, their powers, the rise, and falls have filled-up history books, to mention pre-Mongolian era Shia-Sunni Powers Buywads vs Ghazniwads, Khawarisam vs Ghurids, even during Mongolian rule before rise of Safivads there lived Sarbadars, acted friendly towards sunnis to protect itself by its rulers mainly sunni, anyways rise to its knees but finally crushed by Timurids,
Today still many Sunni suffer because of Iran's hardcore practice of Shias.
There are are some 8-12% Sunnis still living inside Iran, mostly in the Khorasan regions majority Dari speakers, also Pashtu/Baluchi speakers and few Kurdi, and few Arab speakers in the far south western region as well.

What brought you to the conclusion with Pakistan?

My conclusion? I will leave it for some other time, but for now "I don't like Pakistan, any people of Afghan root, would never like any country that will separate us for their own national/political reason. Other than Islam, What the hell does Afghans have to due with Hindu-Muslim people of South Asia? If there is country which them Pakistanis politicians claim is better for all nations, and that's Pakistan, then I am sorry, Its not and never will be.

[Punjabi]

^We helped you Afghans alot.
we took 6millions of your refugees and this is your thanks?



You will choose Indians over us? Or Iran over us?


I thought we were allies Nick.

[inqilab]

Iran and pakistan helped usa invade afghanistan.

[Nick]

^We helped you Afghans alot.
we took 6millions of your refugees and this is your thanks?



You will choose Indians over us? Or Iran over us?


I thought we were allies Nick.

If you are talking on behave of your People, Than we have said "thank you"
But if you are talking on behave of your Country or State of Pakistan.
Then this is what we have to say

a)Sate of Pakistan was receiving over $5 million a month for the refugees and that does not include Arabs and Other nations funds, from 1979-1988 over 15 billion was spend on Pakistan. Even till this day from 2001 and until now over 3 billion a year total of 25 billion was given to Pakistan, this is on the top of table, what is given under the table WE DON'T KNOW.
Pakistan is given to Pakistan for its "Namakharam" or lets say for being a Munafiq in the war against Terrorism.
Conclusion You did it for Money. $$$ American $$$$
"No Bulbul would have loved the flower
If it knew it was no flower, but a thorn" Rahman Baba


b)Pakistan had to help in the sense they notice that million of Dollars could as well be given to India or Iran for keeping these Refugees. Pakistan knew that whatever happens Afghans will come towards Pakistan because of their Brothers who have long been in NWFP. Pakistan had no option, because these refugees were gonna come anyways, after all they don't recognized Pakistan, Sarad has always been part of us, and Pakistan shell remember how many Safis went into Pakistan during their conflict with Nader Shah? Damn right they will show you the middle finger and pass your imaginary border.


c) Pakistan had to help, in the Since the last general of British Left in 1959 Pakistan was given a promise of help, that Pakistan will be help as long as it remains to keep a "Friendly relationship" with the English or with the "West".

I personally think Pakistan did nothing to help Afghans, sure made it worse, but over all common how much does it cost for the health care? 3 million a year? I actually think and this was happening in front of many afghans who once say Islamabad as a ****y place with in 20 years build up, and this market boom continued throughout Pakistan. Pakistan was build by funds which were only to be spend for the refugees. If this War didn't ended in 1989 the funds were close enough to make all of Pakistan another UAE.