Pashtuns of Taliban a Pakistani proxy?

[Talal]

Yeah actually I've been confused about this myself . On one hand people say Pakistan is messing in Afghanistan through taliban and they hate Pakistan for it but then the same people feel proud of talibs.... Either way jasmine made a good point Pakistans got nothing to do with the achievements of talibs and we don't claim any credit either way

[شمله ور خراساني]

the people who claim taliban are pakistani proxies are usually people who directly or indirectly support American occupation or the corrupt and illegal regime in Kabul.

They are dishonest people and their false claims have no meaning.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

1979:

• Primarily Pashtun blood (later on some naughty Arabs came, too).
• American and Israeli weapons (captured from Egypt and Syria in 1973).
• American and Saudi Salafi dollars.
• Pakistani co-ordination.

That's why in 1989, Pakistan thought it defeated the atheist super-power (Islami Qila Zindabad), the USA thought it avenged its Vietnam and Pashtuns failed to realize that they had been utterly and thoroughly defeated.

2003:

• Primarily Pashtun blood.
• Two known groups (Quetta Shura+Heymatyaar) are Pakistani-proxies (this cannot be denied), others may or may not be autonomous, proving this completely in either case is impossible.
• Iran, Pakistan, Salafis, the heroin trade, etc provide logistical support.

The covert support for Jihadi groups is an integral part of Pakistan's foreign policy.

Jasmine, we unfortunately cannot claim that we defeated the British thrice. We can have another thread on that but if you read the history of the Anglo-Afghan wars, you'll see that there was plenty of give and take and no one side came up on top.

[khushal]

1979:

• Primarily Pashtun blood (later on some naughty Arabs came, too).
• American and Israeli weapons (captured from Egypt and Syria in 1973).
• American and Saudi Salafi dollars.
• Pakistani co-ordination.

That's why in 1989, Pakistan thought it defeated the atheist super-power (Islami Qila Zindabad), the USA thought it avenged its Vietnam and Pashtuns failed to realize that they had been utterly and thoroughly defeated.

2003:

• Primarily Pashtun blood.
• Two known groups (Quetta Shura+Heymatyaar) are Pakistani-proxies (this cannot be denied), others may or may not be autonomous, proving this completely in either case is impossible.
• Iran, Pakistan, Salafis, the heroin trade, etc provide logistical support.

The covert support for Jihadi groups is an integral part of Pakistan's foreign policy.

Jasmine, we unfortunately cannot claim that we defeated the British thrice. We can have another thread on that but if you read the history of the Anglo-Afghan wars, you'll see that there was plenty of give and take and no one side came up on top.

Its not weapons, or money, or co ordination, what ever that is that defeat occupation, It is the persistance of the people and the strength of their faith. If it was the Money and weapons, the Soviet Union would have won on day one, because they had an unlimited supply of both and the same with America. Defeat comes in the heart and the mind of the people. As long as the heart and the mind of the people remains with justice, they can never be defeated. You could bomb them to the stone age, which has been done, the struggle gets stronger because the desire for justice gets stronger. Allah swt has given the pashtuns strength in their faith and love for justice.

The British themselves claim they were defeated thrice. Who are you to argue with their own conclusion.

[Shehbaz Khan]

Talibans are the people who brain washed many innocent Pakhtuns and so did many other people did. Totally controlled by different agencies .. The ones in Afghanistan are mainly supported by Pakistan and the ones in Pakistan are supported by India and US (Accoridng to me)..


The talibans should have praised Pakistan's efforts as ISI was mainly the one helping them while they were fighting against the Russians. Now the foreign policy of Pakistan is a completely **** totally controlled by US. They will take several U-turns to please their masters and they did at times.. So no talking about them
The Talibans in Pakistan totally funded by India who doesn't want to see Pakistan survive .. They want that Pakistan should collapse .. And several times I see American's hand in it too as America and many other states like Israel won't like Pakistan to be a nuclear power..

Even today I think ISI is totally funding Afghan Talibans in one way or another ..

Pakhtuns in many areas joined Talibans because of their fighting nature, money and love for the religion.. In fact all of the factors which gave birth to 'Talibans' and Talibans themselves never did any good to Pakhtuns.. They all used us Simply!!


Just a Thought Tho =)

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Talibans are the people who brain washed many innocent Pakhtuns and so did many other people did. Totally controlled by different agencies .. The ones in Afghanistan are mainly supported by Pakistan and the ones in Pakistan are supported by India and US (Accoridng to me)..


The talibans should have praised Pakistan's efforts as ISI was mainly the one helping them while they were fighting against the Russians. Now the foreign policy of Pakistan is a completely **** totally controlled by US. They will take several U-turns to please their masters and they did at times.. So no talking about them
The Talibans in Pakistan totally funded by India who doesn't want to see Pakistan survive .. They want that Pakistan should collapse .. And several times I see American's hand in it too as America and many other states like Israel won't like Pakistan to be a nuclear power..

Even today I think ISI is totally funding Afghan Talibans in one way or another ..

Pakhtuns in many areas joined Talibans because of their fighting nature, money and love for the religion.. In fact all of the factors which gave birth to 'Talibans' and Talibans themselves never did any good to Pakhtuns.. They all used us Simply!!


Just a Thought Tho =)

Why should they praise something that was at the cost of Afghanistan? The war was engineered by the Americans way before any soviet stepped foot into Afghanistan.
And TTP was also funded by ISI and propped up by them...however now I think a large chunk is starting to bite their one time master. Poetic justice.

[Shehbaz Khan]

Yeah I agree that Talibans were created by ISI and many others And one portion of Talibans is now known as TTP - A head ach for Pakistan agha sanga wayi 'So shall you reap' :p nu hum hagha qissa da ..

[Catya Sher]

Good thread, Jasmine, to clarify things for
The Screechers.

If you say anything positive about any of these parties, they descend like a Halloween goblin, screaming the same tired epithets: worshipper of Pakistan Army/ISI/etc.

Indeed, they probably are so fixed upon chanting mantras against the ISI that we could name this faction here as 'ISIS'.

For, they are about as spiritually attuned with the serious and vital fight being waged on behalf of their supposed home turf as worshippers of the goddess Isis of Egypt! Indeed most seem to sit far geographically from Afghanistan and Pakistan's actual Tribal Areas.

I'm joking but I'm serious too : that the mentality of these people is so alien from the need of the hour to get Afghanistan back for AFGHANS, that their ability to reason with original thought has apparently been mummified!

Clearly, they have nothing else to say of any consequence except to rail on about who is a "proxy" of this or that country.

By the way, where is any substantial evidence for Gulbuddin being CURRENTLY a proxy of Pakistan as alleged above ?

Notice how all the claims are made recklessly.
Bring us CONCRETE information that this or any of these charges are true.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Good thread, Jasmine, to clarify things for
The Screechers.

If you say anything positive about any of these parties, they descend like a Halloween goblin, screaming the same tired epithets: worshipper of Pakistan Army/ISI/etc.

Indeed, they probably are so fixed upon chanting mantras against the ISI that we could name this faction here as 'ISIS'.

For, they are about as spiritually attuned with the serious and vital fight being waged on behalf of their supposed home turf as worshippers of the goddess Isis of Egypt! Indeed most seem to sit far geographically from Afghanistan and Pakistan's actual Tribal Areas.

I'm joking but I'm serious too : that the mentality of these people is so alien from the need of the hour to get Afghanistan back for AFGHANS, that their ability to reason with original thought has apparently been mummified!

Clearly, they have nothing else to say of any consequence except to rail on about who is a "proxy" of this or that country.

By the way, where is any substantial evidence for Gulbuddin being CURRENTLY a proxy of Pakistan as alleged above ?

Notice how all the claims are made recklessly.
Bring us CONCRETE information that this or any of these charges are true.

I don't know about current but in the 1970s yes of course and so was Massoud. This is a known thing. Catya thaso walae pur dae dasae khabarae kawae che lakaa daa yaw ajjba khabaraa da? Manana ao thaso ba da jawaab lag pashto kae raakaaee nu kha ba wee.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Its not weapons, or money, or co ordination, what ever that is that defeat occupation, It is the persistance of the people and the strength of their faith. If it was the Money and weapons, the Soviet Union would have won on day one, because they had an unlimited supply of both and the same with America. Defeat comes in the heart and the mind of the people. As long as the heart and the mind of the people remains with justice, they can never be defeated. You could bomb them to the stone age, which has been done, the struggle gets stronger because the desire for justice gets stronger. Allah swt has given the pashtuns strength in their faith and love for justice.

I'm sorry, khushal, but I think you missed the purpose behind my post. There was no victory in that war. The biggest losers out of that conflict were Pashtuns. Look at us now. Look at Afghanistan, look at FATA. Who profited from that so-called Jihad? The Pakistani state. Israel. The United States.

The British themselves claim they were defeated thrice. Who are you to argue with their own conclusion.

So despite three victories, Afghanistan lost nearly 50% of its population to the British Empire and nearly as much land? Wasn't the Afghan Emir to be paid and equipped by the British after 1880 against any possible Russian intervention?

Facts are facts, as Wali Khan said (albeit about something else). Idealism and the truth cannot coincide. Medicine is bitter but it cures. Catch my drift? The best way to move forward is by first accepting the ground realities.

For, they are about as spiritually attuned with the serious and vital fight being waged on behalf of their supposed home turf as worshippers of the goddess Isis of Egypt! Indeed most seem to sit far geographically from Afghanistan and Pakistan's actual Tribal Areas.

The only people left in the world who worship the gods of the religions of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans are Christians and not us, thank you very much. Isis-Osiris-Horus (what a happy little trinity with an immaculate conception of their own and everythang!)

I'm joking but I'm serious too : that the mentality of these people is so alien from the need of the hour to get Afghanistan back for AFGHANS, that their ability to reason with original thought has apparently been mummified!

Clearly, they have nothing else to say of any consequence except to rail on about who is a "proxy" of this or that country.

This is PF, no jokes, young lady. - (Inspired by Zardari).

Now to make my position clear. Firstly, the two wars cannot be thought of as entirely similar. They were very different with different implications. I drew the comparison to show some parallels but the justification to fight back then was different from what it is now. Secondly, I hope each and every invader of Pashtun lands, whether he is the Punjabi in FATA or the Anglo-Saxon in Kandahar and Helmand, gets so brutally murdered that his charred and mutilated remains are beyond recognition and only pieces of meat infused together with burnt metal are packed and sent back in flag-wrapped coffins. It is the wish of every red-blooded Afghan that every singing, dancing, Taekwandoing Christian missionary that has ever set foot in Afghanistan and FATA disguised as an aid-worker is caught and made to squeal like the swine that he is and beheaded on camera and his body is fed to the crows (his body is bread and his blood is wine... how does that go again?).

Does that make my position sufficiently clear? Nationalists have too long been accused of siding with foreigners whereas in reality, the JUI, the Taliban of Mullah Omar, among others, are the actual foreign proxies. But these people referred to Bachaa Khan as a foreign agent. What else can you expect from them? Catya Sher, I dare you to insult Bachaa Khan. He was ardently against the 'anti-Soviet Jihad'. I bet he knew nothing about "Afghanistan for AFGHANS" either. I dare you. Take a stab at him, too. Why was he so against it? Please say that his "ability to reason with original thought (had) apparently been mummified".

By the way, where is any substantial evidence for Gulbuddin being CURRENTLY a proxy of Pakistan as alleged above ?

Notice how all the claims are made recklessly.
Bring us CONCRETE information that this or any of these charges are true.

Well, since you delighted us with your wide-array and variety of evidence, I am compelled to show you some of my own. (Do you like sarcasm?)

Catya Sher, some truths are so self-evident, they don't require evidence. However, for those who are completely ignorant as far as regional politics here are concerned, I suppose some 'evidence' is required.

Late June, 2010. The Haqqani network has always been absent from negotiations. Unlike the locally assembled resistance groups (the 'moderate Taliban), the Haqqani Network has always had a "no talks with kufar" policy. However, the Rolling Stones article provided the ISI with its opportune moment to show its ace. There was a scurry of diplomatic activity in Islamabad during the time McChrystal was being dismissed and sensing a vacuum, the Haqqani network took a major U-turn and sat on the negotiation table with Karzai. The Pakistanis claimed that had "convinced" the Haqqanis to negotiate.

Washington has watched with some nervousness as General Kayani and Pakistan’s spy chief, Lt. Gen. Ahmad Shuja Pasha, shuttle between Islamabad and Kabul, telling Mr. Karzai that they agree with his assessment that the United States cannot win in Afghanistan, and that a postwar Afghanistan should incorporate the Haqqani network, a longtime Pakistani asset. In a sign of the shift in momentum, the two Pakistani officials were next scheduled to visit Kabul on Monday, according to Afghan TV. - NY Times

What? Don't believe Jews and Christians? Yeah, they're liars, the whole lot. Al-Jazeera and DAWN are Muslim, however.

Enter the Pakistani official’s comments about there being a “possible roadmap for a political settlement between Kabul and the Haqqanis”. To be sure, Pakistan is eager to have a seat at the table at which the future of Afghanistan is to be determined. - DAWN

Why does only the ISI have so much leverage over the Haqqanis? Why do only they know about their location? Do you now need a picture of Pasha and Kayani attending Jalaludin Haqqani's son's wedding?

This was also the time when the US was pressurizing Pakistan to go into North Waziristan, which is where the Haqqani network is based. The Pakistanis tried to start-up some sort of negotiations so that they wouldn't have to go into North Waziristan and waste more ammo on civilians. Till this day, an operation there is yet to take place.

As for the Quetta-Shura (which is the mother of all Taliban groups), the name itself suggests something. Let those cogs inside your head turn. Anyone who thinks that the Mullah Omar group (Quetta Shura) is not a direct Pakistani proxy is delusional. Does anyone recall the Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar fiasco?

Please, I seek the truth - I'm not an ideologue. Show me the evidence and I will follow it.

In short, it's good they're making minced meat out of the invaders though they're no better than the ones they wish to replace because they're, most of them, nothing more than foreign proxies. There are local resistance groups. But they're puny in front of the more organized proxies.

[Shehbaz Khan]

That is Pakistan. Pakistan is responsible for brainwashing innocent Pakhtuns and having them perform suicide missions. They were the ones who promoted suicide bombings, remember even your leadership applauded suicide bombers, do I need to make you recall?

We are in this mess because of Pakistan. The biggest enemy of Pashtuns is a state nick named Pornistan or Pakistan, which ever meets your taste. Oh and don't forget about ISI!

Hmm, that is Pakistan? Ok tell me Is Pakistan the ONLY country responsible for all the s*** in Afghanistan?
Are the Afghans not equally responsible? If someone is brainwashing you why you get brainwashed? Y are we so cheap that every one can buy us for a few dollars and make us do whatever they want? Pakistan is also suffering because of all this ...

Okay If Pakistan is that much bad than why its a dream land for a normal Afghan? What are Afghans doing here? They don't even apply for citizenship here? (Don't take me wrong, I don't want them to get out of here unlike the so-called Pakhtun Nationalist Party Afghanistan). The ground realities are quite different .. Afghans themselves are also equally responsible for their miserable conditions today !!

If Pakistan is the only country responsible than the solution is very easy for you bycott Pakistan on each and every level and you will be safe .. Afghanistan will be heaven than?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Hmm, that is Pakistan? Ok tell me Is Pakistan the ONLY country responsible for all the s*** in Afghanistan?
Are the Afghans not equally responsible? If someone is brainwashing you why you get brainwashed? Y are we so cheap that every one can buy us for a few dollars and make us do whatever they want? Pakistan is also suffering because of all this ...

Okay If Pakistan is that much bad than why its a dream land for a normal Afghan? What are Afghans doing here? They don't even apply for citizenship here? (Don't take me wrong, I don't want them to get out of here unlike the so-called Pakhtun Nationalist Party Afghanistan). The ground realities are quite different .. Afghans themselves are also equally responsible for their miserable conditions today !!

If Pakistan is the only country responsible than the solution is very easy for you bycott Pakistan on each and every level and you will be safe .. Afghanistan will be heaven than?

Like I told you before peera..assl ghalthii zamung daa kho dae kae ham daa wayuu che Pakistan ao amreeka/peerangyaan ham loii laas dae. Da poha ham yaw daa neekhaanae daa che khpl malgarae ao dukhman mondhll.

[Shehbaz Khan]

Average Pakistanis like you isnt responsible but your govt and ISI is responsible for instilling fear and hatred in the hearts of innocent Afghans. We have many proof again for this..

Fear and hatred against whom? Where were your intellectual Afghan minds to save yourselves from that disaster? Actually it was decided and the battle field as usual was Afghanistan.. You have proofs than why don't you use the right forums and show the world all those proofs dear

Explain to me how an average Afghan is responsible? Dear Shehbaz it was your Govt who decided to mess with our affairs, show me proof that Afghans requested you to bring us Taliban. You people tried to use the Taliban to control Afghanistan but you failed in a way that is indescribable.

So Average Pakistani is not responsible average Afghan is not responsible .. The leadership at both sides of the durand line is responsible? Right? Our govt decided to mess with your affaris and you let us do it? Than I'll say America is messing with our affairs and using us against you? Do you have any idea of the problems we got after fighting the so called war on terror but you will say its your mistake ok it is ours are you responsible or everything was done by us .. I guess we need to stop blamming each other and work for our interests..

So no you admit that your country is the root cause and cancer of the Region but you are arguing why they got deceived? Many after 3 decades of war they were not as educated thanks to your intelligence agency that has traditionally worked against Pashtun interests? .

Thanks again putting all the blame on the only responsible agency and representing yourself innocent .. As you don't know anything

Afghans are in Pakistan because Pakistan has created a battle field in Afghanistan.
If you would have left our politics alone we would have been much more stronger. Have in mind, Afghanistan is a country of 30million with an incredible amount of resources. The problem is your country.
Every average Afghan has the same request, they say for Allahs sake leave us the hell alone.
What kind of terrorist state do you belong to? When we got hit with floods, Punjab gets the aid and your very own officials get fooled. We are getting robbed for our resources but Shehbaz there is nothing we can do about it because we Pathans remember?

I had already given you the solution .. If Pakistan is you only problem than why don't you simply quit everything with Pakistan.. The fact is it is Pakistan who is feeding millions of Afghans .. It is Pakistan where you are getting education, jobs and businesses .. It is Pakistan feeding you round the clock yes indeed it is Pakistan.. You'd many neighbouring countries why you all rushed to Pakistan :s Because you knew Pakistan will be the only country supporting you .. India is your friend currently in the Asia what kinda business you do with them that they are present in a bulk amount in Afghanistan .. They are actually using Your Land against us .. From where the libreation movement of Balochistan is getting bread, money, gun and gun-powder? Have you ever thought of it that you and yes I mean you are also a problem for us .. ?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Shehbaz Pashtunkhwa is taking care of them not Pakistan...pakistan kho agho pa sar arabaa ddalarae ogattl. And unlike what Pakistan did to the IDPs of other areas, we didn't kick them out. Why do you do this paighour on your own people?

[Shehbaz Khan]

Hehe paighoor kho mi na day karay zargiya that was just a reminder that Pakistan did something .. And yeah it was Pakistan who did it not Pakhtunkhwa It was the state which welcomed the Afghans not the Pakhtunkhwa govt and yes Pakistan is taking care of them if it was only Pakhtunkhwa you would have not found Afghans in Lahore and Karachi So you saying that it's not Pakistan it's wrong ..

Pakistan dollari ogatali lol.. zargiya pakistan damaki ogatali , chars podar e o gatal And much more not only dollari