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Can a guerrilla movement sustain itself without local support?

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  • #16
    My humble two cents on the subject,

    It's a misnomer to say that those who are fighting NATO forces in Afghanistan belong to a single entity called the Taliban, or controlled by it. The insurgency is divided into many factions, who don't necessarily agree with each other when it comes to political views or global ambitions, but have one thing in common, the abhorrence for foreign occupation. In an interview Hamid Gul addressed a question in regards to the current situation. He responded quote: "They are not Italy and Parsi, they are Italy and Italy." You can say whatever you want to say about the man, but he understands the historical, psychological, philosophical aspects of the region and the people. It is in his interest as a Pakistani to associate the two (local population and the Taliban entity) together of course, and it is also in the interest of the NATO forces to blend the two without creating a distinction (justification of the war). Yet, the reality is much different. Something that Karzai realizes but is hopeless in terms of dealing with it. He depends on foreign forces, and his national army reeking with non-Pukhtoons doesn't help either. As long as there are foreign soldiers on the ground in Pukhtoon areas (whether NATO or non-Pukhtoon Afghans), the entity known as Taliban will get support from the locals since disdain for foreigners naturally come to all Pukhtoons. It is a part of our psyche. We don't like fellow Pukhtoons belonging to different tribes interfering with our affairs let alone non-Pukhtoons who don't share our perspective and view on life.

    A point to consider, Iraq. Iraqi insurgency is very limited because it is supported by a minority amongst the Sunnis. Majority of the Iraqis are Shia with an alliance with the Kurds who oppose the insurgents and historic Sunni hegemony. The insurgents try their best to create an atmosphere of civil war however the Shia community is very resilient. They know that war is not in their interest. With due time this insurgency will die out. In case of Afghanistan it's different. The majority of Afghans are Pukhtoons, and the majority of the Taliban happen to be Pukhtoons. The Taliban (and their backers) challenge historic sentiments in the mindsets of the locals. They thrive on the culture and religion of regional inhabitants. They also have a reserve Pukhtoon population to tap into across the Durand which is equally politicized and religiously motivated. This Pukhtoon population is greater in numbers than the one in Afghanistan. You can convince some in the Afghan region to lay down their arms in return for economical incentives, but on this side things are different. People have not been exposed to war and turmoil like that in Afghanistan. They are fresh, and it just so happens that this reserve population is within the boundary of the only state that has strategic interest in supporting the Taliban.

    Pakistan gives more support in terms of logistics, man power, and resources to NATO/Americans compared to that which it might provide in secret to the Taliban. Yet the Taliban are as strong as ever. Which can only mean that they have another source of support i.e. local population.

    To your question, the answer is NO. Without the support of the locals an insurgency like that of the Taliban can't survive. Not for this long and not against such odds.
    Last edited by Guest; 08-31-2010, 03:09 AM.

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    • #17
      I avoided to write on politcial topics in this forum as some people become personel and even abuse the members. However on the very kind invitation of Amna I am writting my opinion.

      Guerilla war is impossible without local support, it is a fact and will remain fact till the end.
      I attended a seminar two years back when a German scholar who is an Afghanistan expert said, that Taliban have 25-30% public support in pashtun dominated areas of afghanistan. For me it was shocking, however facts are facts. I raised the point there, that how much support ISAF forces have in Afghnaistan , and he replied, smiling, 0%. In such a case Taliban will win for sure.
      If we compare their guerilla war with the past guerilla wars of different countries, it is different. Most of the guerilla wars were fought with clear cut ideology, irrespective of wrong or right, but clear cut. But Taliban use two opposite ideologies:
      1) fighting for Islam.
      2) fighting for Pashtunwali.

      If they are fighting for Islam, then how they can get aid of thei ideological opponents e.g. USA, now Iran and even as some people claim china (May be some members differ) as well. And if for pashtunwali then how can get help from Arabs and then especially Pakistan, who are the enemies of Pashtunwali.

      In my opinion they dont know for what they are fighting. It might happen with them, that some members of them are fighting for one and some for other. Then such a haphazard ideology can win but never succeed.
      We saw the results of insurgency agaist communist government in 1977, when Hikmatyar and Masood started guerilla war against them. We witnessed the huge destruction after they won the game. Same will happen with taliban, as long as they will obey pakistan and Arabs they will be ok, when not, we will witness again a huge destruction.

      In conlcusion I will say, Taliban can win and have success, only and only if they will cut the tail of ISI and Arabs, and they base on pure Afghan base, But if they will be limited to this, then Afghan people don't like them as far as I know, because every one needs development, eductaion, health and all basic needs of life.

      As Abubakr pointed in the beginning that this thread must be for general discussion on guerilla war, but it was again brought to taliban and Afghanistan, so I opine on this as well.

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      • #18
        While I appreciate your contribution, please don't bring politics into this. As I have already suggested, I would love to discuss the political side of this but please make another thread and I will get stuck in. And just to make it clear, I don't want a Taliban government, never have. All I want is a free Afghanistan with its national, social and religious integrity intact!

        The point of this thread is simply one thing, members of this forum must get acquainted with principles and philosophy of war instead of biased political opinions.

        By the looks of it everyone so far agrees that an insurgency can not be sustained without local support, shouldn't that send alarm bells to members who believe otherwise?

        p.s I am at work, will reply to everyone when I get home.
        O'faithful hearken thy vezir, for he promises them another Gandamak and for the ancestors of Hari Nalwa a similar fate has been sealed. We shall shake the foundations of their inner sanctums, written in gold and immortal will remain this endeavor of Afghans.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Wrayun View Post
          My humble two cents on the subject,

          It's a misnomer to say that those who are fighting NATO forces in Afghanistan belong to a single entity called the Taliban, or controlled by it. The insurgency is divided into many factions, who don't necessarily agree with each other when it comes to political views or global ambitions, but have one thing in common, the abhorrence for foreign occupation.
          Agreed upon.

          Originally posted by Wrayun View Post
          ..the only state that has strategic interest in supporting the Taliban.
          Not any longer. Pakistan hasn't served its purpose, that of an Islamic state. The threat exponentially outweighs the once vested interest of strategic depth!

          Originally posted by Wrayun View Post
          Pakistan gives more support in terms of logistics, man power, and resources to NATO/Americans compared to that which it might provide in secret to the Taliban. Yet the Taliban are as strong as ever. Which can only mean that they have another source of support i.e. local population.
          Pakistan plays a double game, there is no doubt about that. The important question that we need to ask ourselves is, are Pashtuns gullible enough to be taken for a ride a second time?

          As ever there will be sold out elements who will dance to the tunes of Qadiyani led Pakistani establishment, but the bulk of the Pashtun population will not fall for it.

          May I remind you, the ones who shout the loudest about 'Pashtun nationalism' have and always be the ones doing deals under the table.
          O'faithful hearken thy vezir, for he promises them another Gandamak and for the ancestors of Hari Nalwa a similar fate has been sealed. We shall shake the foundations of their inner sanctums, written in gold and immortal will remain this endeavor of Afghans.

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          • #20
            I am surprised none of the loudmouths are participating in this thread.
            O'faithful hearken thy vezir, for he promises them another Gandamak and for the ancestors of Hari Nalwa a similar fate has been sealed. We shall shake the foundations of their inner sanctums, written in gold and immortal will remain this endeavor of Afghans.

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            • #21
              erlangner,

              I agree with the rest of your post hence I have only quoted the part which I need to address.

              Originally posted by erlangner View Post
              In my opinion they dont know for what they are fighting. It might happen with them, that some members of them are fighting for one and some for other. Then such a haphazard ideology can win but never succeed.
              Contrary to your personal opinion, a revolutionary force must know exactly what they are fighting for in order to put up against an organized military. The instant a revolutionary movement's foot soldiers and generals lose sight of their objectives they will lose the momentum they need to march forward. A lost momentum means decay in military might, loss of territory and collective self confidence.

              With that said, it is true that the current insurgency is put up by an amalgamation of private, tribal and national stakeholders. The biggest threat to Afghanistan's future are the elements known for their thirst for power.
              O'faithful hearken thy vezir, for he promises them another Gandamak and for the ancestors of Hari Nalwa a similar fate has been sealed. We shall shake the foundations of their inner sanctums, written in gold and immortal will remain this endeavor of Afghans.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by akbarkhan View Post
                erlangner,
                Contrary to your personal opinion, a revolutionary force must know exactly what they are fighting for in order to put up against an organized military. The instant a revolutionary movement's foot soldiers and generals lose sight of their objectives they will lose the momentum they need to march forward. A lost momentum means decay in military might, loss of territory and collective self confidence.

                With that said, it is true that the current insurgency is put up by an amalgamation of private, tribal and national stakeholders. The biggest threat to Afghanistan's future are the elements known for their thirst for power.
                Ya Abrar Khan, I agree with your statement,but my point is that the current insurgency can kick out the ISAF forces or may be Afghan army as well, however, this amalgmation on Taliban side (revenge, tribal animosities, pashtunwali, islam etc) will then divide after win, and then another insurgency will start against that time power. A common ideology is the base for a guerilla war. For example, Kurdist nationalism, Pashtun nationalism, communism, islamist jihad, baloch nationalism, but where the members of a guerilla war are divided, then they can win the war, but they cannot succeed in establishing a government and running it successfully.

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