Atheistic Pukhtoon "nationalism", is it possible?

[Wrayun]

From what I understand, an atheist is someone who believes that life happened by chance. That our existence is by accident and merely a coincidence. There is no divine purpose or meaning behind it. If so, how can an atheist be a nationalist Pukhtoon, or for that matter a nationalist German, Persian, Arab etc.? Isn't our heritage by accident too? You are a Pukhtoon, Tajik, Punjabi, Arab, English, French because your parents happen to be. Your heritage is by chance, and is no more significant than any other. Logically speaking, instead of promoting or clinging on to a primitive, under evolved heritage, it would be better to adopt to a far more sophisticated, evolved culture to increase the chances of your survival......it will be completely irrational and unreasonable for any atheist to hold on to an identity which is only relevant to the society of their birth, while other, far more advanced, sophisticated, refined languages and cultures exist that will increase the chances of their success and living standards.

How then, can atheists explain their Pukhtoon nationalism....is it nostalgia?

[BehavedMaseed]

Well most of us here are not all asthistic we are just curious as to why we should follow faith blindly which in turn serves the interests of outsiders.

Pashtun Nationalism serves the interests of the Pashtun people. There should be no Relgion nor Politics to acheive this, it should be natural through awareness.

We were imperialised by Arabs and people such as ghaznavi who inforced Islam onto our throats with big swords. We want to bring back our real identity or atleast preserve it so we dont get exploited by others.

We oppose Imperialism upon others same the way we oppose Islamists who want to Imperialism the whole world and make Islam dominate everybody.

Kind Regards

[شمله ور خراساني]

all pashtun nationalists have deviated from islam somehow. The most extreme type or the atheists and agnosts on this forum.

Nationalism is against Islam. So whoever prefers to be something that is against Islam, will eventually deviate from Islam:

[BehavedMaseed]

Dear Jasmine

I oppose the banning of peoples rights to practice their faith. I feel within a civilised society one must be allowed to practice their faith but I feel Faith should not be integrated into the government or rule of law.

We should adopt laws from all successive governments of the world. I would love to study how the Scandavians deal with crime as they have the worlds lowest rates of crime, I would love to study how the Japanese rehibiliate offenders and integrate it into our state etc.

What I oppose is People using faith to dominate and divide our people and serve outsiders. Sangar is a great example of this as he said he would side with a Non Pashtun than a Pashtun secuarlist, these Mullahs will side with ISI and others to work against us

Kind Regards

[Wrayun]

BehavedMaseed, Jasmine,

I didn't question nationalism or Pukhtoon nationalism to be exact. I questioned the logic behind the nationalism of Pukhtoon atheists. Still looking for a valid response.

Pashtun Nationalism serves the interests of the Pashtun people.

Do you support co-education, intermixing, free love, homosexuality, pubs, strip joints, dating etc. as an atheist Pukhtoon? Those things are against Pukhtoon interests.


Sangar,

If it wasnt for nationalism, in this case Pukhtoon sense of nationhood, the Taliban wouldnt have survived, Osama would have been turned over, and the rest of the foreign fighters would have been long disposed of by any other host nation. Unless you tell me that the reason why the fighting is happening in the Pukhtoon regions alone, is that some how the rest of these groups i.e. Punjabis, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Hazaras, and even Arab states who dont practice Pukhtoonwali happen to be not very good Muslims. Do they subscribe to a different Quran?

You make the same mistake when it comes to Pukhtoon nationalism, as the atheists Pukhtoon do when it comes to religion in the lives of Pukhtoon. Both are essentially integrated parts of the Pukhtoon nation.

Nationalism in the sense of preserving language, heritage, culture, and society is condone by Islam. Islam, is the only religion, ideology, system of belief that gives our ethnicities divine purpose. We are created into nations and tribes, so we can get to know each other. What more does a nationalist need? Not even atheists can make such a claim. They have no divine institution or article to base their claims on. I question their logic, reasoning, behind their Pukhtoon nationalism while propagating concepts totally alien to Pukhtoon society i.e Pukhto, Pukhtoonwale.

[شمله ور خراساني]

BehavedMaseed, Jasmine,

I didn't question nationalism or Pukhtoon nationalism to be exact. I questioned the logic behind the nationalism of Pukhtoon atheists. Still looking for a valid response.




Do you support co-education, intermixing, free love, homosexuality, pubs, strip joints, dating etc. as an atheist Pukhtoon? Those things are against Pukhtoon interests.


Sangar,

If it wasnt for nationalism, in this case Pukhtoon sense of nationhood, the Taliban wouldnt have survived, Osama would have been turned over, and the rest of the foreign fighters would have been long disposed of by any other host nation. Unless you tell me that the reason why the fighting is happening in the Pukhtoon regions alone, is that some how the rest of these groups i.e. Punjabis, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Hazaras, and even Arab states who dont practice Pukhtoonwali happen to be not very good Muslims. Do they subscribe to a different Quran?

You make the same mistake when it comes to Pukhtoon nationalism, as the atheists Pukhtoon do when it comes to religion in the lives of Pukhtoon. Both are essentially integrated parts of the Pukhtoon nation.

Nationalism in the sense of preserving language, heritage, culture, and society is condone by Islam. Islam, is the only religion, ideology, system of belief that gives our ethnicities divine purpose. We are created into nations and tribes, so we can get to know each other. What more does a nationalist need? Not even atheists can make such a claim. They have no divine institution or article to base their claims on. I question their logic, reasoning, behind their Pukhtoon nationalism while propagating concepts totally alien to Pukhtoon society i.e Pukhto, Pukhtoonwale.

You need to educate yourself on what Nationalism is. Pakhtunwali is not Nationalism. This is nationalism: http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...ionalism-3997/

[Wrayun]

Sangar,

You didn't answer my questions.

I know what nationalism is, and in your lengthy post you are addressing one type of nationalism. Nationalism based on preserving identity, culture and autonomy is Pukhtoonwale. These are the root concerns of all nationalist entities. Some lean towards extremist ideas that fall nothing short from fascism. Religion plays a huge rule in nurturing nationalism. Saudi, Pakistan, and Israel wouldn't exist if it wasn't for religion mixed with nationalism.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sangar,

You didn't answer my questions.

I know what nationalism is, and in your lengthy post you are addressing one type of nationalism. Nationalism based on preserving identity, culture and autonomy is Pukhtoonwale. These are the root concerns of all nationalist entities. Some lean towards extremist ideas that fall nothing short from fascism. Religion plays a huge rule in nurturing nationalism. Saudi, Pakistan, and Israel wouldn't exist if it wasn't for religion mixed with nationalism.

No Ididn't answer you question.

Because your whole piece was founded on false premises.

Nationalism as an ideology is exactly that what I have described.

What you are trying to do is to extend ints meaning to make it applicable for many different things that exist.

But the core of Pashtun nationalism is exactly that which I have described. Its secular, and it promotes immorality. Plus it is closely linked to Marxism.

[Wrayun]

Sangar,

I'll leave our discussion for another time because you should elaborate more on this...

Because your whole piece was founded on false premises.

For now I wish to see responses from atheist Pukhtoon nationalists.

[amna.]

From what I understand, an atheist is someone who believes that life happened by chance. That our existence is by accident and merely a coincidence. There is no divine purpose or meaning behind it. If so, how can an atheist be a nationalist Pukhtoon, or for that matter a nationalist German, Persian, Arab etc.? Isn't our heritage by accident too? You are a Pukhtoon, Tajik, Punjabi, Arab, English, French because your parents happen to be. Your heritage is by chance, and is no more significant than any other. Logically speaking, instead of promoting or clinging on to a primitive, under evolved heritage, it would be better to adopt to a far more sophisticated, evolved culture to increase the chances of your survival......it will be completely irrational and unreasonable for any atheist to hold on to an identity which is only relevant to the society of their birth, while other, far more advanced, sophisticated, refined languages and cultures exist that will increase the chances of their success and living standards.

How then, can atheists explain their Pukhtoon nationalism....is it nostalgia?

Pashtoon Nationalism is more based on what now exists. Today we have 50million people that share the same language,history and culture. We are one of the largest ethnic group that lack a country made specifically for us.

I understand what you mean by atheists and their nonsense about Religion but when it comes to ethnicity its a different cup of tea. Pakhtoon Nationalists have one goal in mind and that is to not see the Pashtun nation serve. They want to see Pashtuns have a nation of their own. They want to see Pashto spoken and Pashtunwali being followed which pre-dates Islam.

[Roshina]

Just because not all of us understand atheism or can't imagine why anyone would be an atheist doesn't -- or at least it shouldn't -- at all mean that it shouldn't make sense to everyone else either, or that those who call themselves atheists have no reason to fight for justice for their people.

I cannot find any connection between atheism and politics at all. Pukhtun nationalists just want independence for their people, want to be allowed to practice their culture on their own soil; they want to have their children learning about their history in schools and speaking their language freely. And so on.

What's that got anything to do with atheism?

And you should read more about atheism to understand why people are atheists. Maybe it'll start to make sense to you.

Also, there's nothing IN nationalism that says that your heritage is more significant than other people's heritage. There's nationalism, and then there's ethnocentricism. I support the former but by no means the latter, as it breeds hatred, intolerance, and racism.

[Wrayun]

I'm not getting the response I am looking for. Maybe because those who are responding are not declared/self pro-claimed atheists. Again I am not questioning nationalism, nor do I require its definition. I personally don't care about peoples religious beliefs. So far I have been told to go learn about nationalism, and now am being asked to learn about atheism, yet my questions remain unanswered. From the few recent discussions on this forum what I noticed is that the nationalists here have this belief, that if there are those who are genuinely concerned about Pukhtoon national goals and ambitions, they can only be secular, or irreligious. I tend to challenge that.

I think anyone who knows anything about atheism can conclude from my initial post that I have a pretty sound idea of what atheism is. Again, how do atheist members here rationalize their Pukhtoon nationalism?

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

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[Wrayun]

Dear Wrayun. Peace be upon you.

Ciao!

Tell me, why are you thinking for me on my behalf?

I don't even know you, let alone think behalf of you.

Why do you think that if a person doesn't worship as you do, he will automatically want free love, strip joints, dating, videotaped sex with intoxicated carnivorous animals, etc?

How do you know what I think and specially the above?

Tell me, is the fear of being punished in the Afterlife the only thing that's keeping you from visiting strip joints and practicing free love? If tomorrow you find out that God doesn't exist, you'll start living in a strip bar?

Yes, the fear of punishment in the hereafter keeps me from visiting strip joints, and eating babies. If tomorrow I find out that there isn't a God, I will slit your throat for a tissue paper. Or maybe because I felt like it. Why not? Sanctity of life? You are special because as a monkey you evolved, learned to walk and wipe your ass? If life is accidental, purposeless, so are all the man made tree hugging concepts of humanity. It is yet another form of dogmatic belief system to emotionally blackmail you.

I don't believe in any form of divinity and I despise strip clubs, open dating, 'free love', etc. But not because I think that if I go to a strip club, I'll go to hell. I wouldn't go to a strip club because I just don't approve of such activity. It goes against my moral values. News flash. Moral values don't necessarily come from religion.

Why you don't approve of such activity? Assume I am an atheist and I enjoy going to strip clubs, will you pass judgement? You must hold some sort of an opinion of me. Your moral values...where do you get them from? Are they written in stone by the universitys professor or emailed out daily in a chain letter? Morals are customs, socially relevant = man made. You willingly succumb to social dogmas yet reject religious ones...why? Is it do to the fear of being excommunicated from your society? In this case the Pukhtoon society. Therefore you disapprove of these things not out of your "good human" nature, but due to fear. You replaced your fear of hell, with fear of men and social rejection. Do you see the irony? Chew on it.

Atheism = immorality only equates in the mind of a Mullah because a Mullah stays away from sex with young girls because he doesn't wanna miss out on his virgins in paradise. An atheist stays away from evil because he doesn't want evil to prevail and because he doesn't want to engage in evil despite knowing that he won't be punished for it.

I'm not a Mullah...however as an atheist will you stay away from sexing up a young tender evolved ape..why and why not? Don't say morals = man made.

An atheist that believes in good, bad, the ugly and evil, is an atheist that suffers from self imposed dogmas. If an atheist has reached such enlightenment and illumination that he concludes that life is without purpose, meaningless, the atheist should also understand that all concepts of good, bad, wrong, evil thus are man made.

Life did happen to evolve as it did by chance. Whether an atheist believes that or not doesn't change the fact that it happened as it did. There is a purpose and meaning behind life. Make your purpose service to your fellow man. How about that? Or would it sound better coming from a Deity?

It would be nice if a deity was involved. Otherwise help the fellow man? I only live once, I should look out for my own interest. Screw the flood victims, earth quake victims, tsunami victims. Too bad, natural selection, survival of the fittest. It is best to look out for your own self interest and survival. The food and money that you might donate generously can help your chances of continued existence and further the chances of you passing on your genes. Sympathy in an accidental world at the expense of one own self is utter nonsense and suicidal.

That's the beauty of our culture. It came about slowly and gradually and it became as beautiful as it is today. Yes, you could have been born a Mandarin-speaking Chinese, a Mongolian, a German or anything else. But you are born a Pashtun so count yourself among the lucky ones. It's the same as being born ugly or beautiful. A person's beauty is by chance and because of one's parents, there's not much more to it. But a person born beautiful is grateful and lucky.

Our culture also include the seclusion of women from society at large, lack of inheritance for women, prohibition on girls education, no rights for homosexuals and transgenders, sex out of wedlock is punishable by death, an eye for an eye so on so forth...still find it beautiful...would you like to change something?

Counting yourself lucky because you are born a Pukhtoon...its like saying count yourself lucky because you have blue eyes, blonde hair....which in fact do actually help in certain societies. How does being born a Pukhtoon help? What is so special about Pukhtoon identity to you as an atheist? Pukhto is an underdeveloped language, Pukhtoon society isn't advanced as many other societies. In fact, as far as I know many atheists would like to REFORM Pukhtoon society to mimic and replicate those societies which have evolved far more technologically, economically, and have tremendously improved living standards for its members. Doesn't sound very rational for an atheist.

We can be modern (in thought and ideas) whilst still being completely Pashtun.

lulz.... how?

Tell me, Wrayun, as a Muslim do you believe that God specifically created Pashtuns and their culture?

Defiantly,

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

What's your excuse?

Here's some food for thought (have it after maghrib tho). Arabs keep ranting against nationalism because they want Turks, Afghans and other non-Arab Muslim under their culture and control. In Pakistan, Hindustani Mohajirs (a people with no cultural heritage of their own) and Punjabis (a people with a weak and diluted culture) cry the most about how nationalism destroys Islam and da Islam qila. They are envious and afraid of Pashtuns and their culture.

Pashtuns have been Muslims for only 1/4th of their existence. For the remaining 3/4ths, they have been non-Muslim.

Not relevant to the subject. But, can you give me some references to Pukhtoon history before Islam, before being Muslims. Like what do you know about the 3/4ths of the existence of Pukhtoons, their origins, the dialects, their writing system, their religious and cultural beliefs. Don't pull a big bang, nothing out of nowhere. Empirical evidence, backed by resources.

[آريا]

Atheism = immorality only equates in the mind of a Mullah because a Mullah stays away from sex with young girls because he doesn't wanna miss out on his virgins in paradise. An atheist stays away from evil because he doesn't want evil to prevail and because he doesn't want to engage in evil despite knowing that he won't be punished for it.

But when you claim that those real things which you can't see don't exist, you are wrong.

Pashtuns have been Muslims for only 1/4th of their existence. For the remaining 3/4ths, they have been non-Muslim.

Again you are wrong because before the last messenger Muhammad s.a.w., Allah sent messengers to every ancient nation.

The Quran confirms that some ancient Pashtuns/Afghans from ancient Sakastan/Baktria/Gandhara could have been Muslim actually. Although many Pashtuns/Afghans were polythiests and fire worshippers because of the corruption in their original religions.