Palistine/Israel: 1 state solution

[khushal]

Here is an interview of Netanyahu of his views on the one state solution:

Netanyahu: Trump did a great service for peace - YouTube

[khushal]

If Palestinians start demanding equal rights and Israeli citizenship. Israel would have no choice but to either grant it to them and lose their "Jewishness" or keep their "Jewishness" and be undemocratic.
Netanyahu and Trump has put Israel on a path that will be more difficult to defend Israeli actions as Israel has always claimed to be defender and champoin of human rights and democratic values in a region that has none. Arrogant policies always end in failure.

[Firdousi]

If Palestinians start demanding equal rights and Israeli citizenship. Israel would have no choice but to either grant it to them and lose their "Jewishness" or keep their "Jewishness" and be undemocratic.
Netanyahu and Trump has put Israel on a path that will be more difficult to defend Israeli actions as Israel has always claimed to be defender and champoin of human rights and democratic values in a region that has none. Arrogant policies always end in failure.

Actually this Arab-Israeli conflict reminds of the Hundred Year´s War: one day without all of us even noticing it, it will stop. There won't even be a peace treaty. It will just cease to exist.

If you look at history this conflict has morphed several times: it started as a nationalist war by the Sionists. Then it morphed into an ethnic war: Arabs vs Jews/Hebrews. Once Arabs got defeated, they dumped the ethnic trait and instead it turned into an ideological war between revolutionary/nationalist/anti-imperialist/socialist/communist Palestinians vs democratic/capitalistic/imperialistic Israelis. When the Cold War came to an end and with the rise of Islamist parties such as Hamas, it morphed once again in a religious war between Jews and Muslims.

We must consider the context in which we are right now: the nation-states in the Islamic world are collapsing or will collapse. So the Palestinian cause is doomed. But so is the Israeli cause: current Israeli society is split between non religious secular nationalist Jews which make up the majority and the orthodox non nationalist Jews.

Orthodox Jews don't believe in Israel. At least most of them. Sionism is a secular movement so religious jews don't care. They call themselves Israelites not Israelis. When you ask them if they are "Sionists" most of them respond "I am Jewish". Orthodox refuse to attend military service, they refuse to participate in the democratic game and so on. They are basically like parasites. They get married at the age of 18-20 and they breed 7-8 children. This means that their numbers are exponentially growing by 8 every 20 years. Secular jews marry at the age of 30. Most of them don't have more than 1-2 kids. Many of them actually die single.

Do the maths people: within few decades religious Jews will make up the majority so the current state of Israel won't survive. Nobody can or will win this war basically because it will morph into something different and the conflict will become meaningless. People like Netanyahu, Liebermann, the Hamas leadership or Abbas got their days numbered. Mark my words.

[khushal]

Orthodox jews believe that the Messiah will bring back the Israel of David, a Just Israel. They believe the current Israel is a US created entity therefore not Holy, not Just.

It doesn't matter if the orthodox are having more kids than the seculars. Populations shift from secular to non secular. The children of orthodox could become secular or the other way around. You are not necessarily what your parents are.

Netanyahu and the US Church(which is where most of US support derives from) is betting the World will continue to be fooled that Israeli treatment of Palestinians is Noble especially now that Arab states are openly friendly.

[Firdousi]

Orthodox jews believe that the Messiah will bring back the Israel of David, a Just Israel. They believe the current Israel is a US created entity therefore not Holy, not Just.

It doesn't matter if the orthodox are having more kids than the seculars. Populations shift from secular to non secular. The children of orthodox could become secular or the other way around. You are not necessarily what your parents are.

Netanyahu and the US Church(which is where most of US support derives from) is betting the World will continue to be fooled that Israeli treatment of Palestinians is Noble especially now that Arab states are openly friendly.

So far we should expect that most of Orthodox won't go secular. Of course it happens. Orthodox refusal to serve in the IDF is because they are afraid of losing their faith. Thats why the Israeli government created the Netzva Yehudi battalion, exclusively for Orthodox Jews. As I pointed out before, this conflict will eventually morph into something different. Also Israel relies a lot on Western nations for its survival. I don't believe this country will survive without the West.

Ian Bremmer already stated in his book the "G-Zero World" that Israel and KSA would be the main losers in this new post-American world. Thats why they are teaming up now because they know how dark the future is for them.

Although I dislike the way Palestinians are treated, I also acknowledge that Palestinians are no saint. I also admire Jews. They are so successful that its hard not to admire them. Israel is a role model. With devotion, patriotism and hard work Jews from all over the world managed to create one of the best countries in the ME. Lazy Muslims refuse to acknowledge this.

The only thing that I really dislike about this country is how Zionist lobbies are always making USA to wage war for the sake of its one survival. I used to hate this country not long time ago but come on guys we all have seen the barbarism and the way Muslim countries/movements have been behaving in the last six years. Israel is way more moral than our corrupt Islamic tyrannies.

[khushal]

The only thing that I really dislike about this country is how Zionist lobbies are always making USA to wage war for the sake of its one survival. I used to hate this country not long time ago but come on guys we all have seen the barbarism and the way Muslim countries/movements have been behaving in the last six years. Israel is way more moral than our corrupt Islamic tyrannies.

In US politics, the Israeli lobby is influential in the democratic party while the Church(Christian Zionists) have strong influence in the Republican Party. The more aggressive policies regarding Israel's protection and waging war for Israel does not come from the Israeli lobby but more from the Church. Most influential US Jews and the Israeli lobby were for the Obama/Iran Nuclear deal while the Church(Christian Zionists) was against it. They were also against moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, it was the Church(Chirstian Zionists) that told Trump to move it.
Christian Zionists believe that the gathering of the Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the second coming of Jesus Christ.

[maneatinglizard]

Israel is a role model. With devotion, patriotism and hard work Jews from all over the world managed to create one of the best countries in the ME.

It's not that simple. Jews were already integrated into the West, its culture, intellectual ranks, and many were rich benefactors and investors of Western economies. And even then they were helped a ton by the US. If the Yemeni Jews controlled the country, for example, it'd have been a failure like any other Western attempt at creating a Western-style nation-state in the Middle East. Israel only worked because the people ruling it were Westerners. They weren't forced to embrace a foreign culture and mindset because they were already a part of the West.

The same couldn't work in a country like Afghanistan because not only aren't there many Westernized, highly educated Afghans to implement a Western-style government, most Afghans don't even want such a country. If we compare the two countries, Afghanistan is basically already in the state that you predict will cause Israel's downfall in the future: the "orthodox" Afghans far outnumber the "secular" ones. Add in the fact that our country had already been at war for 2 decades by the time the US invaded, and so most people are mostly concerned with protecting/benefiting themselves and their families, and the idea that we'd ever get anything similar to Japan or Israel was a delusion from the start.

That's why we need to stop asking the West to "fix" our countries. Even if we could assume that they'd have good intentions (they won't and I hope everyone realizes that by now), it'll never work because they can't see the world the way we do, and most of us can't see the world the way they do.

[khushal]

Israel only worked because the people ruling it were Westerners.

The vast majority of Israeli citizens are Westerners that had immigrated and not indigenous Jews. Not only are the rulers Westerners but its citizens are Westerners.

Remember Helen Thomas:
CNN Helen Thomas 'Jews don't have the right to take other people's land' - YouTube

[Firdousi]

In US politics, the Israeli lobby is influential in the democratic party while the Church(Christian Zionists) have strong influence in the Republican Party. The more aggressive policies regarding Israel's protection and waging war for Israel does not come from the Israeli lobby but more from the Church. Most influential US Jews and the Israeli lobby were for the Obama/Iran Nuclear deal while the Church(Christian Zionists) was against it. They were also against moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, it was the Church(Chirstian Zionists) that told Trump to move it.
Christian Zionists believe that the gathering of the Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Do you seriously believe that AIPAC is a pro-democrat lobby? Hard to believe that man.

[Firdousi]

It's not that simple. Jews were already integrated into the West, its culture, intellectual ranks, and many were rich benefactors and investors of Western economies. And even then they were helped a ton by the US. If the Yemeni Jews controlled the country, for example, it'd have been a failure like any other Western attempt at creating a Western-style nation-state in the Middle East. Israel only worked because the people ruling it were Westerners. They weren't forced to embrace a foreign culture and mindset because they were already a part of the West.

The same couldn't work in a country like Afghanistan because not only aren't there many Westernized, highly educated Afghans to implement a Western-style government, most Afghans don't even want such a country. If we compare the two countries, Afghanistan is basically already in the state that you predict will cause Israel's downfall in the future: the "orthodox" Afghans far outnumber the "secular" ones. Add in the fact that our country had already been at war for 2 decades by the time the US invaded, and so most people are mostly concerned with protecting/benefiting themselves and their families, and the idea that we'd ever get anything similar to Japan or Israel was a delusion from the start.

That's why we need to stop asking the West to "fix" our countries. Even if we could assume that they'd have good intentions (they won't and I hope everyone realizes that by now), it'll never work because they can't see the world the way we do, and most of us can't see the world the way they do.

I disagree. Mizrahim mentality is strong in Israel. Those guys are ruthless and authoritarian like their Arab cousins. Ashkenazim and other European Jews tend to be more secular and left wing. Most of those idealist/socialist kibbutz were actually built by European Jews. Israel´s society is diverse and complex so we should we be cautious when it comes to analyzing it.

Israel worked for several reasons. Huge Western back-up, regional turmoil, divisiveness and weakness,.. and of course Zionist idealism and hard work. Jews have really worked hard on their country.

I believe we tricked ourselves. We really thought that by allowing Americans in our country would become a better place after all SK, Europe, GCC, Canada, Japan,.. all these countries were once weak or enemies of the USA and now are the most dynamic, developed and advanced places in the world.

Alas we were wrong. Since the end of Colonialism the Islamic World has been driven by several outside ideologies and politics. Now that Colonialism and Cold War are over, with the failure of our secular governments the Islamic world is finally reordering itself. In coming decades IW will descend into chaos (once again). We are about to witness the end of the post-Westphalian world order based on nation-states, sovereignty, multilateralism, secularism and capitalism.

Now plenty of people are happy that Islamists have been defeated in Syria and Iraq but they fail to understand the basic dynamics of our region: those countries will never be able to rebuild their states. Two failed states in the heartland of Islam implies a headache for the entire region and the world. Since Muslim societies have not and probably will never develop a sense of "citizenship" politics will revolve around ethnic and sectarian logic.