US blunder in Afghanistan ‘not giving representation to the Pashtuns’, Musharraf

[Firdousi]

1: Afghan Taliban and their leadership have distanced themselves from TTP and their actions , though the latter associate themselves with the former.I think you have not studied the topic enough and closely , therefore you are blurting out whatever you hear or comes to mind.

2 : Pakistan's policy does have a role in the matter , we have made our fair share of mistakes ,but that does not refute the fact that Indian and Afghan intel services are behind the TTP and banking on the anger these guys already have for Pakistan.Some of our fellow Pakistanis mention the Mossad as well , but I feel that is a stretch and nothing but emotionalism.

1. It doesn't matter. TTP is an offshoot of your good Taliban. Its a fact. And despite their different methods both are the same thing. Period.

2. Of course Afghan and Indian intel are behind TTP and BLA, what did you expect? Taliban leaders are freely roaming around in your country carrying Pakistani passports. Tit for tat. But we didn't create them though.

[Akbar]

1. It doesn't matter. TTP is an offshoot of your good Taliban. Its a fact. And despite their different methods both are the same thing. Period.

2. Of course Afghan and Indian intel are behind TTP and BLA, what did you expect? Taliban leaders are freely roaming around in your country carrying Pakistani passports. Tit for tat. But we didn't create them though.

you are being as delusional as these pakis.
you celeberate when people in pakistan die and they celeberate when Afghans die.
you both lack humanity.

[Firdousi]

you are being as delusional as these pakis.
you celeberate when people in pakistan die and they celeberate when Afghans die.
you both lack humanity.

Not really. I have several times stated that we all should focus on regional integration, economic development and political stability. Its the only way to bring peace and prosperity to our region.

But I am realistic. Pakistan isn't even going to give us pass to trade with India. Pakistan has proved to be a non reliable and back stabber namak haram hamsaye. Pakistan is a pain in the a ss. Under these current circumstances we all should pray for the obliteration Pakistan. May this fake Brit madre country be cursed.

[khushal]

The Taliban movement precedes the foreign troops presence. I know current Taliban are quite different than those who took over Afghanistan 20 years ago but your claim is faulty.

Musharraf is not right. Musharraf can't be right. That ugly dalkhor doesn't care about Afghanistna he just wants to stir up ethnic animosity between Afghans.

Your forgetting the Soviets

[khushal]

Not really. I have several times stated that we all should focus on regional integration, economic development and political stability. Its the only way to bring peace and prosperity to our region.

But I am realistic. Pakistan isn't even going to give us pass to trade with India. Pakistan has proved to be a non reliable and back stabber namak haram hamsaye. Pakistan is a pain in the a ss. Under these current circumstances we all should pray for the obliteration Pakistan. May this fake Brit madre country be cursed.

You are right but its the Paki Army. The Paki Army's Generals, the PPP, the ANP, the PTI and religious parties all want to keep Pakistan a feudal state because the leaders of these parties financially benefit from the feudal structure. It is only Nawaz Sharif that wants to create an industrial Pakistan. Industrialization leads to integration. He was deposed once by the Army and was threatened the second time for trying to create a free trade zone between Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.
Imran Khan 'plotted with army to oust Nawaz Sharif’, colleague claims - Telegraph

[Dost]

Your comment's fair and well-formulated. However, i never said i endorsed Pashtunistan. I'm against the pakistan state's profiling of Pashtuns and using them to gain their own advantages. Now many other countries are in on that as well. Pashtuns get pushed around in Afghanistan AND Pakistan. On one hand normal pakistanis detest Afghans (most of who are Pashtuns in pakistan) and then proceed to treat "their own" Pashtuns in the same way. I've seen far too much of this and it boils my blood. Those are OUR brothers being manhandled. Cultural assimilation is a double-edged sword, on the one hand you get to enjoy the perks of an urbanised, hierarchal society where everyone gets what they can aspire to, provided they have the merits to obtain it, and on the other hand you forget your identity, race, ideals heck everything. In pakistan that means you just get desified and desified Pashtuns are tools. People in punjab were and india were going crazy over Arshad khan (chay kharsol agha) and yet insulted him on tv due to his inability to speak english and that he spoke accented urdu, his perceived lower status (see hierarchal society). Pashtuns have never discriminated each other on status. Status isn't ascribed in our society. Conflict arises because of tribal feuds sometimes emanating from personal belligerence. But now, assimilation is the worst bane of Pashtuns.... those that speak their mother tongue are laughed at by the "urbanised" desi society and called backwards. This is what causes mistrust and hate. Its the pakistani state's narrative to divide Pashtuns on national terms. Pakistani Pashtuns are "pathans" and the Afghan Pashtuns are just "those evil disgust Afghans". It's hypocrisy if anything. Sorry for the rant and wall of text.

Very articulate and well thought out post. I thank you first of all for speaking to me, rather than insulting me.

Durrani saab, I cannot comment on Pashtun people being pushed around. It would be absolutely unfair for me to speak about the Pashtun nation, because I have probably met less than 10% of them.

What I can say is that I feel like Pashtun people are a huge part of Pakistani culture. Especially when it comes to Islamic views and dress. Also, Pashtun food is very popular in Punjab.

The rabab is a signatue Pashtun instrument that we all enjoy in Punjab.

Having said all of this, If Pashtun people feel like Pakistan as a state is being unfair with them, then who am I to contest?

I am a Muslim so boundaries drawn on maps mean very little to me. I am not a representative of Pakistan Army or Pakistani government. I don't hold the fate of Pashtuns in my hand. If Pashtun people feel like they cannot live with other Muslims in Pakistan,then who am I to try and stop them?

However, I feel like all of us Pakistanis love each other very much. As many jokes punjabis make of pashtuns, you should realize that they also give the most tareef. Pashtuns are considered lions and given a lot of respect by those same people that like to make jokes.

So I don't understand...

All I can say is that If Pashtuns are unhappy with Pakistan, we cannot force them to be happy. Every human has their own right(haq) to satisfy themselves.

[Firdousi]

You are right but its the Paki Army. The Paki Army's Generals, the PPP, the ANP, the PTI and religious parties all want to keep Pakistan a feudal state because the leaders of these parties financially benefit from the feudal structure. It is only Nawaz Sharif that wants to create an industrial Pakistan. Industrialization leads to integration. He was deposed once by the Army and was threatened the second time for trying to create a free trade zone between Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.
Imran Khan 'plotted with army to oust Nawaz Sharif’, colleague claims - Telegraph

I know brother Pak Army call the shoots in that country. Thats why they won't let change this current status quo benefits them. Pak Army gets a lot of privileges and benefits out of all this mess. If the civil government takes over they will be forced to accept civil authority. That aint gonna happen.

Pakistan politicians are as corrupt as Afghan politicians. May be even worse. Pak army will never give up on his good and bad strategy. Ghani when he got into the office tried his best. He tried with a pro Pak strategy.. what did happen? Nothing. He realized Pakistan is not a reliable and trustworthy neighbor. They want submission not coexistence. Under this circumstances we must consider Pakistan our enemy.

[Firdousi]

Your forgetting the Soviets

There wasn't any Talib during the soviet invasion but Mujahedeens. Mujahedeens also precede the URSS. Massoud, Rabbani, Hekmatyar, Sayyaf,.. all of them were around before URSS.

[khushal]

There wasn't any Talib during the soviet invasion but Mujahedeens. Mujahedeens also precede the URSS. Massoud, Rabbani, Hekmatyar, Sayyaf,.. all of them were around before URSS.

You first said that Taliban preceded foreign troops, now your saying the soviets(foreign troops) were before the Taliban. Your contradicting yourself.

Masoud, Hekmatyar, etc were nothing but minor ailments without the foreign troop presence. Most societies have them. Their movement grew exponentially with the presence of Soviet(foreign) troops. Societies evolve accordingly to their environment. Certain catalysts, in this case foreign troops, is used for certain arguments, in this case violent resistance, to a certain conclusion as local people perceive benefits to their own interests.

As long as foreign troop presence exists, the people arguing for violent resistance will prevail continuing instability. As long as foreign troop presence exist, Pakistan will continue its policy of duplicity because it can not tolerate an India friendly gov to its NW nor can it's elite give up its greedy appetite for Western Corp money even though such policy is destabilizing its own society just like the Military Industry in the US doesn't care if its Gov goes bankrupt as long as its making money.

[Firdousi]

You first said that Taliban preceded foreign troops, now your saying the soviets(foreign troops) were before the Taliban. Your contradicting yourself.

Masoud, Hekmatyar, etc were nothing but minor ailments without the foreign troop presence. Most societies have them. Their movement grew exponentially with the presence of Soviet(foreign) troops. Societies evolve accordingly to their environment. Certain catalysts, in this case foreign troops, is used for certain arguments, in this case violent resistance, to a certain conclusion as local people perceive benefits to their own interests.

As long as foreign troop presence exists, the people arguing for violent resistance will prevail continuing instability. As long as foreign troop presence exist, Pakistan will continue its policy of duplicity because it can not tolerate an India friendly gov to its NW nor can it's elite give up its greedy appetite for Western Corp money even though such policy is destabilizing its own society just like the Military Industry in the US doesn't care if its Gov goes bankrupt as long as its making money.

Its pretty obvious that by "foreign troops" I meant current "foreign troops" occupying our country (USA, NATO). Soviet troops were also before Taliban. Its fact. So I am not contradicting myself. I am right.

Mujahedeen movement didn't grew only because of the foreign troops, there were also some additional factors such as too fast, deep, hard and liberal policies adopted by commies that were unacceptable for the conservative Afghan society. I remember once I came across this book (can't remember its name) regarding how Massoud was saying that during his coup against Daud he had almost no support but during the commie regime peasants were coming to him with their children in order to join him.

You are overestimating the Taliban movement. Its not a legitimate resistance group, but a Pashtun rural phenomenon. Most of Afghans despiste it (many Pashtuns included).

I do agree with what you said regarding corporations and how stupid this war is. Foreign countries are taking advantage of our stupidity. We are dying for nothing.

[khushal]

Its pretty obvious that by "foreign troops" I meant current "foreign troops" occupying our country (USA, NATO). Soviet troops were also before Taliban. Its fact. So I am not contradicting myself. I am right.

whatever

Mujahedeen movement didn't grew only because of the foreign troops, there were also some additional factors such as too fast, deep, hard and liberal policies adopted by commies that were unacceptable for the conservative Afghan society. I remember once I came across this book (can't remember its name) regarding how Massoud was saying that during his coup against Daud he had almost no support but during the commie regime peasants were coming to him with their children in order to join him.

thats true but the commie coup was planned and ordered from Moscow because Daud was attempting to pry away from Soviet dependence and we know from history what happens when you depend on such a power, they won't let you go without consequences. In other threads and posts, you advocate a repeat of such policy.

You are overestimating the Taliban movement. Its not a legitimate resistance group, but a Pashtun rural phenomenon. Most of Afghans despiste it (many Pashtuns included).

I do agree with what you said regarding corporations and how stupid this war is. Foreign countries are taking advantage of our stupidity. We are dying for nothing.

In the current form, its more of an anti corruption populism rural phenomena. they are no longer just Pashtun.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-/50732-taliban-pashtun-meet-tajik-pamiri-taliban.html

Ethnic Minorities Are Fueling the Taliban’s Expansion in Afghanistan | Foreign Policy

Here’s the Most Disturbing Thing About the Taliban Takeover of Kunduz | The Diplomat

I put less emphasis on Taliban or Quetta shura since I do not believe they call the shots but more emphasis on the reasons why the foot soldier fights.
Notice why I said anti corruption rural phenomena
Herat:
Afghanistan's new anti-government groups - 01 Aug 08 - YouTube

[Firdousi]

whatever


thats true but the commie coup was planned and ordered from Moscow because Daud was attempting to pry away from Soviet dependence and we know from history what happens when you depend on such a power, they won't let you go without consequences. In other threads and posts, you advocate a repeat of such policy.



In the current form, its more of an anti corruption populism rural phenomena. they are no longer just Pashtun.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-/50732-taliban-pashtun-meet-tajik-pamiri-taliban.html

Ethnic Minorities Are Fueling the Taliban’s Expansion in Afghanistan | Foreign Policy

Here’s the Most Disturbing Thing About the Taliban Takeover of Kunduz | The Diplomat

I put less emphasis on Taliban or Quetta shura since I do not believe they call the shots but more emphasis on the reasons why the foot soldier fights.
Notice why I said anti corruption rural phenomena
Herat:
Afghanistan's new anti-government groups - 01 Aug 08 - YouTube

What??? What??? Elaborate, please.

There are plenty of ethnic Tajiks in the Taliban movement. In Herat their main commanders were Tajiks: Soleiman Amiri (joined government) and Gulam Yahyah Akbar i(killed few years ago). But at the end of the day Taliban are a Pashtun force.

Corruption plays a key role in anti-government sentiments but seems you seriously believe that Taliban are not "corrupt" which is hilarious. Dont be naive.