US blunder in Afghanistan ‘not giving representation to the Pashtuns’, Musharraf

[ZarakDurrani606]

Well Durrani saab, I have spoken with a few friends. Afridi, Shinwari, Wazir, Marwat, Khattak and Bannuchi. A lot of them are tribal and have links in Afghanistan regarding family. I have never heard them say they hate Afghanistan. But it seems like they get very upset regarding the politics of Pakistan-Afghanistan relations. All of them love Pakistan, and consider Pakistan their country.

Now whether they disagree with the government or military establishment is entirely their own opinion. However, they still view themselves as Pakistanis, and a lot of them think that they own Pakistan. lol

I love Pashtun people in general, some more than others. That's because they have great culture, music and poetry.

The thing I don't understand about your idea of Pashtunistan is this. Pashtuns divide themselves among tribes. Just like we Punjabis do. So how will such a state like Pashtunistan be feasible If Pashtuns are not even willing to come together ethnically?

Trust me brother, I am a loyal Pakistani. I love my country, but I am not at the point where I can be considered a nationalist because I have some moral ethics as a Muslim that cannot be compromised.

There were Pakistani(Pashtun) workers in Afghanistan that were unarmed and killed by your ANA. Should all Pakistanis now hate Afghans or Pashtuns? That's ridiculous.

A lot of Afghans have contributed to terrorism in Pakistan such as the Peshawar APS school killings. Should all Pakistanis blame Afghans for the idiocy of a few men? NO.

At the end of the day, I think ethnic rivalries are beyond stupid. Even If you one day get your Pashtunistan, guess who you will have to deal with? Punjabis, Tajiks, Baluch, and Iranians.

So I encourage you to be pragmatic. I think Pakistan and Afghanistan should be the best of friends, and that we should be able to cross each other's borders freely.This is my hope.

Your comment's fair and well-formulated. However, i never said i endorsed Pashtunistan. I'm against the pakistan state's profiling of Pashtuns and using them to gain their own advantages. Now many other countries are in on that as well. Pashtuns get pushed around in Afghanistan AND Pakistan. On one hand normal pakistanis detest Afghans (most of who are Pashtuns in pakistan) and then proceed to treat "their own" Pashtuns in the same way. I've seen far too much of this and it boils my blood. Those are OUR brothers being manhandled. Cultural assimilation is a double-edged sword, on the one hand you get to enjoy the perks of an urbanised, hierarchal society where everyone gets what they can aspire to, provided they have the merits to obtain it, and on the other hand you forget your identity, race, ideals heck everything. In pakistan that means you just get desified and desified Pashtuns are tools. People in punjab were and india were going crazy over Arshad khan (chay kharsol agha) and yet insulted him on tv due to his inability to speak english and that he spoke accented urdu, his perceived lower status (see hierarchal society). Pashtuns have never discriminated each other on status. Status isn't ascribed in our society. Conflict arises because of tribal feuds sometimes emanating from personal belligerence. But now, assimilation is the worst bane of Pashtuns.... those that speak their mother tongue are laughed at by the "urbanised" desi society and called backwards. This is what causes mistrust and hate. Its the pakistani state's narrative to divide Pashtuns on national terms. Pakistani Pashtuns are "pathans" and the Afghan Pashtuns are just "those evil disgust Afghans". It's hypocrisy if anything. Sorry for the rant and wall of text.

[khushal]

Moby Group is owned by Mohseni, a Tajik Shia originally from southern Afghanistan. Mohseni signed a an agreement with Rupert Murdoch.

Its hilarious how Mohseni is labeled in Afghanistan by many as an "Iranian spy" (mainly Pashtuns) while in Iran he is considered a "Zionist agent" for being in a partnership with Murdoch. Check this out. Its kinda old this article but still it deserves a read.

An Afghan Media Mogul, Pushing Boundaries - The New York Times

I fully support Mohseni. Thanks to him for the very first time in our history we Afghans have some sort of "soft power". Iranians, Tajiks and many Persianspeakers from the ME and CAR´s are addicted to Tolo and Farsi1. Mohseni should focus a bit more on Pakistan and india. Create a channel in Urdu/Hindi.

Like most Afghan Shia and Iranian Shia that have grown up in the West, he is actually an atheist. Afghans have no soft power. MOBY Group is a proxy of Rupert Murdock:
News Corp takes stake in Dubai media company | The National

MOBY Group also owns Farsi1 which throws out propaganda at Iran while here in the states, Rupert Murdocks FOX throws propaganda at the US public to wage war against Iran. Through MOBY Group, he is promoting anti Islam and pro-quni agenda. His goal is to have influence with the projected $30 trillion Middle Eastern consumer market.
Rupert Murdoch’s Invasion of Iran - The Daily Beast

Rupert Murdoch’s partner at Farsi1, Saad Mohseni, an Afghani-Australian who runs the Moby Group and who has created and produced Afghanistan’s Tolo TV and Arman Radio (the most popular broadcasts in Afghanistan) told The New Yorker that, unlike his competitors, Farsi1 neither provides any kind of news content nor gets involved in any way in Iranian politics. “That is our mantra,” he said. “We don’t get involved in local politics.”
Yet the biggest contributor to Mohseni’s Afghan network is USAID, which sponsors two shows on Tolo TV. And despite his long experience in Afghanistan, Mohseni has made few friends in the Afghan government. Hamid Karzai has called Mohseni, “a good businessman… [who] does bad things on the media,” while Afghanistan’s former Minister of Information and Culture Abdul Karim Khurram has frequently criticized Mohseni for what he suggests are his anti-Iranian views.But what controversy exists about Farsi1 is focused on the main man behind the project, Rupert Murdoch, whose Fox News (if you can use that word) Network has turned anti-Islam hysteria into ratings gold. Fox’s popular evening anchors regularly spout the most vile and bigoted rhetoric against Islam and Muslims and the network’s experts are by far the loudest voices in America advocating war with Iran. No wonder that Murdoch’s involvement with Farsi1 has already created some humorous chatter on line. On the Farsi1 FAQs page one questioner asks: “We have heard numerous rumors about the ownership of Farsi1 and its religious affiliations. Is it true that a Zionist owns it?”
Murdoch is no Zionist, but he’s certainly no friend either to Muslims or to the people of the Middle East. Yet he obviously recognizes the untapped potential of what the World Economic Forum calls “the world’s largest emerging consumer market”—a global Muslim market whose combined annual disposal income is estimated to grow from nearly $3 trillion today to a staggering $30 trillion by 2050.
With numbers like that, it cannot be long until we start seeing Homer Simpson in a turban!

On a side note Rupert Murdock is also the one who promotes the idea that, aside religion as the main cause(his claim), Muslims are stupid because of the cousin marriage thing when the fact is that Science has debunked it.
Rupert Murdoch and the Jews | Michael Wolff | Opinion | The Guardian

I think that Murdoch, a man not so much paranoid as he is realistic about his enemies, is parsing what he sees as "'good Jews" from "bad Jews". Jews are just another subset of the people who are for him or against him, who he either has to manage or isolate. Along with his open dislike of Muslims – once, he explained to me his theory about how Muslims often married close cousins, therefore depressing their general IQ – and his geopolitical views about world domination, supporting Israel, I believe, is a way to win the support of what he perceives as the good Jews. (That is, if you support him, you are a good Jew.)

[khushal]

Mohseni also produced this film for the Australian Gov:
Australian taxpayers fund $6M film to discourage migrants from entering the country - Washington Times

While it was fine for him to immigrate to Australia, he is discouraging other Afghans just so he can make a few million dollars. Hypocrite.

[khushal]

The Afghan Taliban suffered a big blow when the Western forces occupied the country ,and for a few years they just lay low and had dispersed all over.The Northern Alliance and Nato had won a military victory.Even Pakistan withdrew its support from the Taliban, and was hopeful that the new Afghan Karzai govt would be favourable for Pak.
The Karzai govt did not take the route that Pak wanted them to take , so our military then again decided to invest in the Afg Taliban as they could be allies.
With Pakistani support,the Taliban insurgency gained momentum.
Musharraf's view that the Taliban grew in strength due to under-representation of Pashtuns in the Afg govt does not carry much weight, imo.

Musharaf is partially right. The main factor is that the Gov is corrupt. If the Gov wasn't corrupt and actually worked for its people, then there would be no reason for people to fight.

Most of the violence in Afghanistan is due to criminality and corruption. The Taliban is just a scapegoat. Blame everything on them therefore the real cause is never addressed therefore never solved. Pakistan just took advantage of the situation that was presented to them. All the blame lies with the Afghan Gov.
On the flip side, the TTP is purely a creation of Paki policy. All the blame lies with the Paki Army.

The cancer is foreign troop presence though. these stupid policies will continue until the cancer is gone.

[salman47]

Doesn't matter we are going to deport you back to the land of milk and honey you came from .

You mean to say give KPK and Balochistan back to Afghanistan? Wow!! Thanks,, you're so generous

[salman47]

Pakistan is like a Building(Mughal Empire)!
Remove the Foundation(KPK and Balochistan), the whole complex will collapse!

Remember Khushal Baba Jan? Remember Innocent Safi Women? Remember how we ****ed that badzat Mughal Empire? You Pakis want the history to be repeated!

P.S. Seriously if Paki Pashtun were part of Afghanistan instead, they would still be extremely patriotic! Patriotism indeed is strange.

[toughpashtun]

Musharaf is partially right. The main factor is that the Gov is corrupt. If the Gov wasn't corrupt and actually worked for its people, then there would be no reason for people to fight.

Most of the violence in Afghanistan is due to criminality and corruption. The Taliban is just a scapegoat. Blame everything on them therefore the real cause is never addressed therefore never solved. Pakistan just took advantage of the situation that was presented to them. All the blame lies with the Afghan Gov.
On the flip side, the TTP is purely a creation of Paki policy. All the blame lies with the Paki Army.

The cancer is foreign troop presence though. these stupid policies will continue until the cancer is gone.

Musharraf is right to some extent.I agree with you on that.However , his idea that lack of representation of Pashtuns in Afghan govt helped gather support for ,and strengthened the Taliban insurgency , does not appear a strong arguement in my opinion.

As far as TTP is concerned , let me state a few facts.

1 - In the late 1990s , armed militant groups, inspired by the Taliban government in Afghanistan, sprung up in FATA and tried to impose some rules and laws such as ban on shaving beards , closing down music stores , breaking television sets etc.

2 - After 9/11 when Pakistan clearly sided with the U.S and NATO forces , the so called Pakistani Taliban , under leaders such as Nek Muhammad Wazir ,and with support of local tribesmen , gave shelter to the fleeing Arab and foreign fighters from Afghanistan.And showed opposition to Pakistani support for NATO.
An odd military operation and peace deals helped contain these people.

3 - After the peace deals were broken , then the TTP under Baitullah Mehsud came to prominence.Over the years, they have been divided in splinter groups and factions .But they are very aggressive and have carried out suicide attacks all over the country. They picked up pace after Lal Masjid operation in 2007.I have no reason not to believe that the Indian and Afghan agencies are behind these people.

[Samandri]

Musharraf is right to some extent.I agree with you on that.However , his idea that lack of representation of Pashtuns in Afghan govt helped gather support for ,and strengthened the Taliban insurgency , does not appear a strong arguement in my opinion.

As far as TTP is concerned , let me state a few facts.

1 - In the late 1990s , armed militant groups, inspired by the Taliban government in Afghanistan, sprung up in FATA and tried to impose some rules and laws such as ban on shaving beards , closing down music stores , breaking television sets etc.

2 - After 9/11 when Pakistan clearly sided with the U.S and NATO forces , the so called Pakistani Taliban , under leaders such as Nek Muhammad Wazir ,and with support of local tribesmen , gave shelter to the fleeing Arab and foreign fighters from Afghanistan.And showed opposition to Pakistani support for NATO.
An odd military operation and peace deals helped contain these people.

3 - After the peace deals were broken , then the TTP under Baitullah Mehsud came to prominence.Over the years, they have been divided in splinter groups and factions .But they are very aggressive and have carried out suicide attacks all over the country. They picked up pace after Lal Masjid operation in 2007.I have no reason not to believe that the Indian and Afghan agencies are behind these people.

Actually they did not spring up spontaneously....the madrassas of Fazlur Rahman sent their students to Afghanistan to help the Taliban in their fight against Ahmad Shah Masood in Kabul (1996) and in all the subsequent battles up to 2001. All of this was facilitated by ISI and all these Pakistani Talibs from Madrassas were organized by ISI who also sent weapons to proper Taliban through them. Nek Muhammad, Baitullah, Badullah Mehsud etc were among the people who went this way to Afghanistan in this period (1996-2001) and returned back fully inspired. So it can be said that TTP was not some movement engineered by India or Mosad (as Pakistanists asserts) but blow back of ISI 's misuse of Madrassas in Pakistan.

[khushal]

Actually they did not spring up spontaneously....the madrassas of Fazlur Rahman sent their students to Afghanistan to help the Taliban in their fight against Ahmad Shah Masood in Kabul (1996) and in all the subsequent battles up to 2001. All of this was facilitated by ISI and all these Pakistani Talibs from Madrassas were organized by ISI who also sent weapons to proper Taliban through them. Nek Muhammad, Baitullah, Badullah Mehsud etc were among the people who went this way to Afghanistan in this period (1996-2001) and returned back fully inspired. So it can be said that TTP was not some movement engineered by India or Mosad (as Pakistanists asserts) but blow back of ISI 's misuse of Madrassas in Pakistan.

People don't fight just because they went to a madrassa. There are other factors. It was the ISI who were directing the tribal people to fight along side the Afghans against NATO and the ANA and at the same time they were allowing supply lines to NATO and ANA. It was this duplicity that forced the TTP to turn their guns on the Paki state.

[khushal]

Musharraf is right to some extent.I agree with you on that.However , his idea that lack of representation of Pashtuns in Afghan govt helped gather support for ,and strengthened the Taliban insurgency , does not appear a strong arguement in my opinion.

As far as TTP is concerned , let me state a few facts.

1 - In the late 1990s , armed militant groups, inspired by the Taliban government in Afghanistan, sprung up in FATA and tried to impose some rules and laws such as ban on shaving beards , closing down music stores , breaking television sets etc.

2 - After 9/11 when Pakistan clearly sided with the U.S and NATO forces , the so called Pakistani Taliban , under leaders such as Nek Muhammad Wazir ,and with support of local tribesmen , gave shelter to the fleeing Arab and foreign fighters from Afghanistan.And showed opposition to Pakistani support for NATO.
An odd military operation and peace deals helped contain these people.

3 - After the peace deals were broken , then the TTP under Baitullah Mehsud came to prominence.Over the years, they have been divided in splinter groups and factions .But they are very aggressive and have carried out suicide attacks all over the country. They picked up pace after Lal Masjid operation in 2007.I have no reason not to believe that the Indian and Afghan agencies are behind these people.

You understand very little about tribal people. There never is central command.

[toughpashtun]

Actually they did not spring up spontaneously....the madrassas of Fazlur Rahman sent their students to Afghanistan to help the Taliban in their fight against Ahmad Shah Masood in Kabul (1996) and in all the subsequent battles up to 2001. All of this was facilitated by ISI and all these Pakistani Talibs from Madrassas were organized by ISI who also sent weapons to proper Taliban through them. Nek Muhammad, Baitullah, Badullah Mehsud etc were among the people who went this way to Afghanistan in this period (1996-2001) and returned back fully inspired. So it can be said that TTP was not some movement engineered by India or Mosad (as Pakistanists asserts) but blow back of ISI 's misuse of Madrassas in Pakistan.

You are right that our military used these people against Northern Alliance.
Bur post 9/11 , when these same people turned against the Pakistani state ,and began carrying out terrorist activities , it is quite clear that foreign intel agencies had a role in supporting them , and still do.And it is not surprising , even Pakistan uses proxies.

[toughpashtun]

You understand very little about tribal people. There never is central command.

Please explain. I don't get what you are trying to say.

[Firdousi]

Musharaf is partially right. The main factor is that the Gov is corrupt. If the Gov wasn't corrupt and actually worked for its people, then there would be no reason for people to fight.

Most of the violence in Afghanistan is due to criminality and corruption. The Taliban is just a scapegoat. Blame everything on them therefore the real cause is never addressed therefore never solved. Pakistan just took advantage of the situation that was presented to them. All the blame lies with the Afghan Gov.
On the flip side, the TTP is purely a creation of Paki policy. All the blame lies with the Paki Army.

The cancer is foreign troop presence though. these stupid policies will continue until the cancer is gone.

The Taliban movement precedes the foreign troops presence. I know current Taliban are quite different than those who took over Afghanistan 20 years ago but your claim is faulty.

Musharraf is not right. Musharraf can't be right. That ugly dalkhor doesn't care about Afghanistna he just wants to stir up ethnic animosity between Afghans.

[Firdousi]

You are right that our military used these people against Northern Alliance.
Bur post 9/11 , when these same people turned against the Pakistani state ,and began carrying out terrorist activities , it is quite clear that foreign intel agencies had a role in supporting them , and still do.And it is not surprising , even Pakistan uses proxies.

Musharraf reorganized the Taliban movement in 2003. TTP is an offshoot of the Afghan Taliban. Both are two sides of the same coin. Both have given bayah to the Mullah Omar and mullah Mansour. Pakistanis are in denial. You are too emotional, too gullible, to brainwashed to understand that despite all the foreign intel support at the end of the day TTP is the outcome of your own failed policies.

[toughpashtun]

Musharraf reorganized the Taliban movement in 2003. TTP is an offshoot of the Afghan Taliban. Both are two sides of the same coin. Both have given bayah to the Mullah Omar and mullah Mansour. Pakistanis are in denial. You are too emotional, too gullible, to brainwashed to understand that despite all the foreign intel support at the end of the day TTP is the outcome of your own failed policies.

1: Afghan Taliban and their leadership have distanced themselves from TTP and their actions , though the latter associate themselves with the former.I think you have not studied the topic enough and closely , therefore you are blurting out whatever you hear or comes to mind.

2 : Pakistan's policy does have a role in the matter , we have made our fair share of mistakes ,but that does not refute the fact that Indian and Afghan intel services are behind the TTP and banking on the anger these guys already have for Pakistan.Some of our fellow Pakistanis mention the Mossad as well , but I feel that is a stretch and nothing but emotionalism.