India, Afghanistan, Bangladesh May Boycott SAARC Over Pakistan

[HindustanTimes]

If India was next door to Afghanistan and it was a Muslim(albeit by name) nuclear power. How do you think India would react? the hatred would be the same hatred as it has for Pakistan (minus the butthurt from the division etc). Hinduwaan cherta na khpaleegi remember that.

Doubtful...India has only positive feelings towards Afghanistan...most of all to Indians, Afghanistan is/sounds like some mystical far away land full of brave tall strong handsome light skinned warriors...Indians greatly admire Afghans...unlike their Paki brothers.

Afghanistan's history with India is not as as recent as Pakistan....we must aknowledge the fact that Afghanistan is a much older nation than both India and Pakistan (both formed in 1947)....

Beside the fact thay Afghanistan and India are completely different countries with their own distinct cultures, history, peoples, languages, etc. Unlike Pakistan/East Pakistan which pretty much the same as India in every level. East Pakistan being different from India on the basis of Islam part is bs as well, since India has more Muslims than Pakistan with non Indic Muslums like Baloch, Pashtun, etc. included.

In reality, Pashtun and Baloch lands should never have been part of Pakistan....this was a big mistake that is affecting all 3 countries today.....without Pashtuns and Baloch lands included as part of Pakistan, Afghanistan would have no ties to Pakistan what so ever....this wouldve removed Afghanistan from the picture altogether.

so comparing Afghanistan with Pakistan seems illogical and very far fetched...

[Manzareh]

Doubtful...India has only positive feelings towards Afghanistan...most of all to Indians, Afghanistan is/sounds like some mystical far away land full of brave tall strong handsome light skinned warriors...Indians greatly admire Afghans...unlike their Paki brothers.

Exactly, so your admitting the admiration of afghans is based on fairytales. What then when they realise they are not all handsome tall light skinned warriors. 'Sounds like some mystical far away land' .. I think that justification says it all.

Afghanistan's history with India is not as as recent as Pakistan....we must aknowledge the fact that Afghanistan is a much older nation than both India and Pakistan (both formed in 1947)....

So what?

Beside the fact thay Afghanistan and India are completely different countries with their own distinct cultures, history, peoples, languages, etc. Unlike Pakistan/East Pakistan which pretty much the same as India in every level. East Pakistan being different from India on the basis of Islam part is bs as well, since India has more Muslims than Pakistan with non Indic Muslums like Baloch, Pashtun, etc. included.

Firstly if your saying the love is there because of stark contrasts, then there's nothing more parallel than Hinduism and Islam. Second, the "India has more Muslims than Pakistan" arguement is not a very smart one since the Muslim Indians are subdued and they are under your control (which is why you don't mind them as much) pakis look at you in the eye with no fear and it really botheres you, then you start thinking about their army and it bothers you a little more.

In reality, Pashtun and Baloch lands should never have been part of Pakistan....this was a big mistake that is affecting all 3 countries today.....without Pashtuns and Baloch lands included as part of Pakistan, Afghanistan would have no ties to Pakistan what so ever....this wouldve removed Afghanistan from the picture altogether.

Not necessarily, Pashtun and Baluch lands are an advantage to Pakistan, the population adds to its security which is also returned vice versa. No Pashtun or Baluch would rather be in a warzone, when your Russian allies were invading them would you offer them sanctuary??

so comparing Afghanistan with Pakistan seems illogical and very far fetched...

I guess no so far fetched once you dissect the facts. You can argue about the cultural ties and what not but the truth is India is threatened by Pakistan, and that's all it boils down to. If Pakistan was Hindu all the stuff you mentioned would be out the window. You would rather support Afghanistan because you view them as weak and no competition. If they were a Muslim neighbour to you and had nukes you would be working with their neighbor to demonise them. Truth hurts afghans but this is the reality. Hindus do not want a Muslim power next door.

[Forreigner]

Exactly, so your admitting the admiration of afghans is based on fairytales. What then when they realise they are not all handsome tall light skinned warriors. 'Sounds like some mystical far away land' .. I think that justification says it all.



So what?



Firstly if your saying the love is there because of stark contrasts, then there's nothing more parallel than Hinduism and Islam. Second, the "India has more Muslims than Pakistan" arguement is not a very smart one since the Muslim Indians are subdued and they are under your control (which is why you don't mind them as much) pakis look at you in the eye with no fear and it really botheres you, then you start thinking about their army and it bothers you a little more.



Not necessarily, Pashtun and Baluch lands are an advantage to Pakistan, the population adds to its security which is also returned vice versa. No Pashtun or Baluch would rather be in a warzone, when your Russian allies were invading them would you offer them sanctuary??



I guess no so far fetched once you dissect the facts. You can argue about the cultural ties and what not but the truth is India is threatened by Pakistan, and that's all it boils down to. If Pakistan was Hindu all the stuff you mentioned would be out the window. You would rather support Afghanistan because you view them as weak and no competition. If they were a Muslim neighbour to you and had nukes you would be working with their neighbor to demonise them. Truth hurts afghans but this is the reality. Hindus do not want a Muslim power next door.

Indians love Afghans... will give daughters to Afghans...even if they were muslim with nuclear power....

Indians love Afghans, unlike dark ugly Pakis...

[Elite Pakhtun]

which is why it's strange why Pakistan is lagging in that area. I recall Pervez Hoodbhoy talking about some of the ridiculous topics being researched in even very recent pakistani research universities

Probably more than we could gain from Pakistan in areas of science and development.

Ok great, then good luck. Let's see what happens. I think you're overly optimistic, but time will tell. No point beating this dead horse.

Let us worry about it then, it shouldn't concern you.

It wasn't just about that, read up.


if you understood what really triggered the Khost rebellion or at least galvanized it you'd understand that it hit the fan because pictures circulated of Queen Soraya being paraded in euro-slapper outfits.

The confusion here, is that even though I clearly in one of my first posts pointed about the whole desi stuff being unappealing... you for some reason thought I meant suggestive images of attractive women when I mentioned importing Bollywood garbage. This in turn has resulted in a waste of time and a back and forth on something I never said, and we weren't even necessarily disagreeing (or agreeing). Let's just leave it at that for now. Queen Soraya is not the same as Kajol from Bollywood. Plus it's 2016, people are much more aware of the existence of such images and are more mentally prepared. Not that it matters... again, I was referring to India's desi culture which you guys seem to dislike (not that I can blame you to be honest).

You're the one who thinks that we are obligated to Pakistan because they pay lip service to Islam.

No I'm not. Where did I say this? You keep harping on about this, please quote the relevant statement I made to prove you're not just seeing things.

You mentioned Bollywood, there's nothing in there that isn't an emulation of Western norms on some level. So either you're trying to appeal to emotion .....or you really didn't think that through

I'm banking on the former, but Veena Malik is doiing what she does from what it appears, to emulate her Bollywood sisters.

This is the problem. There's a misunderstanding of what exactly it is that's being referred to. Of course Bollywood emulates Western norms. They've outright ripped off hollywood movies with no remorse. They've done that with Pakistani songs. These indians are the least original people on the planet. Their country is named after the Indus river. Do me a favor and look at the map and see where the Indus river is exactly, and how much of it is in India.

I was referring to desi culture, of which bollywood is actually a significant contributor to. You misunderstood it to mean bollywood because it's borderline pronographic.

you're being disingenuous now, what would be the point of worrying about bollywood if it weren't for things like Veena Malik? i'm certainly not worried if Afghans develop a good work ethic, become qualified professionals and scientists, which also is something we might find in India.

Lol... this is the part that cracks me up. I go through this website and all I see are insults to Desi personality, desi culture, desi this desi that, and Afghans are not like that, because they're central Asian. 2 seconds later you're making friends with Indians, i.e. the Desi headquarter of the planet. Do you not see the issue? If you don't have any issues with Indian culture and being Indianized/Desified, then A) I feel sorry for you and B) all those statements about Pakistanis should be thrown out of the window immediately. I have issues with indian version of desi culture myself, and so do many Pakhtuns and even some of the richer Pakistanis of any race.

As for Indian work ethic and "qualified professionals"... look, don't make me laugh please. Like everyone, they come in different stripes, but there is certainly popular opinion about Indians not being very qualified, and the work ethic is the same throughout the area. If you knew how many people thought Indian call centers were utter garbage, you'd never say they were qualified. If you're going to give examples of Indians in America, they're Americans of Indian origin. India doesn't get any credit for it.

I don't actually need to reread your post, you were trying to appeal to emotion and didn't think through what your statements imply.

No, you do, since you've been attributing a lot to me that I hadn't said.

Early on one of the first things I've said was this: "But lets face it...your complaints about Pakistan being too desi will be nothing when you import bollywood garbage.". Page 3 of this redundant thread. Wtf does that look like to you? I clearly say Desi... is western nudity desi? You clearly don't know what it is that I said.

Then stop appealing to the Islam card all the time......you basically countered your Religion pandering.

Again, find me 1 time where I appealed to the Islam card. First mention of Islam and Muslims I said they're different everywhere. That too because you brought it up. I never said be friends with Pakistan only because we're both Muslims. I said most commodities will be cheaper to import from either Pakistan, or one of your other neighbors. This also happens to be a fact. You have to pay more for transporting cotton from India to Afghanistan, than you would from Pakistan to Afghanistan. Then I said best to have relations with all i.e. be neutral.

Irrelevant, we're talking about why we're picking India over you, you've inadvertently affirmed the reason.

I have. When I said you'll be singing Dil Se in 10 years, that was me affirming the reason. Glad we both agree on this at least.

That's true, but Pakistan was allies with various terrorist groups, and American Military who carpet bombed us.

The difference? India is trying to make up for it. .......how is Pakistan trying to make up for it? More support for Taliban.

Look, this I can understand, but Pakistan had no choice with American military at least. We can't stop them from attacking you guys, it'll be doom for us. The country is, unfortunately guilty of being unjust to people like us.

You have no right to dictate what we should do, I think supporting India would be beneficial for us, despite some nonsense that somehow Bollywood would have some unstoppable power to contaminate society. It's contaminated Pakistan more than us. Hence the existence of "Lollywood" LOL.

That's basically been your only counter so far.

Well, if I have to summarize our entire conversation to you again, I'm going to be wasting a lot of time I don't want to waste. My point about everyone here saying this and that about Austroloids and desi this desi that is that they can never ever say that again if they're importing indian garbage. That's all.

[Elite Pakhtun]

Indians love Afghans... will give daughters to Afghans...even if they were muslim with nuclear power....

Indians love Afghans, unlike dark ugly Pakis...

Indians are not exactly fair skinned and beautiful.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Ok great, then good luck. Let's see what happens. I think you're overly optimistic, but time will tell. No point beating this dead horse.

Then I don;'t get why you're trying so hard to convince us that all India has to offer are call centers ......I mean yeah that's there but it's not the Call Centers making new discoveries and performing amazing research in numerous fields.

I was referring to India's desi culture which you guys seem to dislike (not that I can blame you to be honest).

To us there's no fundamental difference between Pakistan;s desi culture and India's; it smells the same, sounds the same, looks the same....and at that it;s not even all aspects of Desi culture, just their behavior and mentality. The inferiority complex, subservience to foreign invaders. There are positves as we have discussed.

No I'm not. Where did I say this? You keep harping on about this, please quote the relevant statement I made to prove you're not just seeing things.

It's pretty obvious because you seem agrieved over the fact Afghans picked India over Pakistan, i'm just here to say it has more to do with reality than spiting Pakistan.

I mean there's no hard and fast quote, but a summary of your postings here really. the pieces create that picture. Make of that what you will.

This is the problem.

No the problem is you keep back peddling, going from attacking bollywood to now validating it.

Physician HEAL THYSELF!!!

I was referring to desi culture, of which bollywood is actually a significant contributor to. You misunderstood it to mean bollywood because it's borderline pronographic.

Which it is, and therefore your naiveness on this issue is strange,
..and perhaps I'm misunderstanding you ......but you seem to accept this level of indecency but you're trying to "scare' us into being aligned with Pakistan because of Bollywood?

Work on your priorities, because if you're Pakhtun, you'd know what holds more concern.

Lol... this is the part that cracks me up. I go through this website and all I see are insults to Desi personality, desi culture, desi this desi that, a

And you seem unusually defensive about it for a "Pakhtun"

wale sta pa khistak ki natsawali si?

nd Afghans are not like that, because they're central Asian. 2 seconds later you're making friends with Indians, i.e. the Desi headquarter of the planet. Do you not see the issue?

Yeah it's called context, it's something people who live outside of a 2 Dimensional world do, where they can think on different layers and nuance.

I like a mean New York strip steak, doesn't mean I want to become a cowboy and listen to country ....

By the way your attempt at reverse psychology is kind of amateurish. and NOT effective

If you don't have any issues with Indian culture and being Indianized/Desified,] then A) I feel sorry for you and B)

Yep reverse psychology, refer to the point below about Bollywood movies and their presence in Afghanistan.

And by the way, don't you speak Urdu? Case closed.

all those statements about Pakistanis should be thrown out of the window immediately.

As of yet India hasn't sent suicide bombers into Afghan villages. When that happens we'll rethink things

I have issues with indian version of desi culture myself, and so do many Pakhtuns and even some of the richer Pakistanis of any race.

Nice bait and switch, from a Pakhtun perspective desi is desi. They;re all technically Indian. Pakistan is just another form of India, but we embrace India because they have more to offer.

As for Indian work ethic and "qualified professionals"... look, don't make me laugh please.

I never said Indians are all qualified professionals, but they sure have a good continence of them. More so than Pakistan from what it seems.

Like everyone, they come in different stripes, but there is certainly popular opinion about Indians not being very qualified, and the work ethic is the same throughout the area. If you knew how many people thought Indian call centers were utter garbage,

Nice strawman

you'd never say they were qualified. If you're going to give examples of Indians in America, they're Americans of Indian origin. India doesn't get any credit for it.

Considering that skilled labor is often imported from India.....those "Indian Americans" are basically the fruits of India.

No, you do, since you've been attributing a lot to me that I hadn't said.

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck ....

Early on one of the first things I've said was this: "But lets face it...your complaints about Pakistan being too desi will be nothing when you import bollywood garbage."

.

There's been Bollywood in Afghanistan since before the Soviet-Afghan war, people haven't become Desi yet.

But again, don't you speak Urdu?

Again, find me 1 time where I appealed to the Islam card.

If the whole world wasn't so anti-Pak and anti-muslim in general, this would be serious.

WHat I found hilarious is how you tried to conflate Pakistan with Islam ......come on now.

I have. When I said you'll be singing Dil Se in 10 years, that was me affirming the reason. Glad we both agree on this at least.

Indian movies have been in Afghanistan well before the 80's .....I can't even speak Urdu, you probably can. .......

Look, this I can understand, but Pakistan had no choice with American military at least. We can't stop them from attacking you guys, it'll be doom for us. The country is, unfortunately guilty of being unjust to people like us

Then you really don';t have a point here. political expediency ruled your decisions.

Well, if I have to summarize our entire conversation to you again, I'm going to be wasting a lot of time I don't want to waste. My point about everyone here saying this and that about Austroloids and desi this desi that is that they can never ever say that again if they're importing indian garbage. That's all.

False dichotomy more or less......

[Firdousi]

Dear Foorsi-Dausi, The numbers of Bongla genocide are inflated, and there are varying estimates, with realistic numbers being 500,000.

Bangladesh war: The article that changed history - BBC News

The genocide **** means **** all, Iran has 2nd highest executions per year. If genocide meant something, then Germany wouldn't be one of the richest, most advanced, most culturally rich countries in the world. Neither would the UK. Neither would many countries. Some of them do well, some do not.

Iran got somewhere because of oil. Their system is nothing special. With oil any country can seem semi-decent.

You butchered 10 million Bangladeshis.

Now please, baby killer, stop talking to me. By engaging in talks with you that would mean that I am accepting you de facto as my equal. Obviously I don't consider you as my equal, so please, don't quote me anymore, cockroach. Pakistan is the enemy of Islam.

[Elite Pakhtun]

Then I don;'t get why you're trying so hard to convince us that all India has to offer are call centers ......I mean yeah that's there but it's not the Call Centers making new discoveries and performing amazing research in numerous fields.

What you’re doing is falsely attributing things to me, while taking out of context excerpts. Normally I wouldn’t care, but there’s probably a lot of people who probably don’t care to read through the thread that will think you’re somehow presenting good arguments.

We were talking about space program when your above response was made. As is the case in many discussions on online forums like this, there are more than 1 topics discussed. You somehow brought in the call centre into the space program.

Again, I’m not sure what you’re going to get from india’s “amazing research” that any other country wouldn’t get. But I don’t care… let’s see what happens. I hope it’s beneficial to you. I won’t talk about this extremely foolish space exploration topic you brought up after this post. We’ll see what happens. The end.

To us there's no fundamental difference between Pakistan;s desi culture and India's; it smells the same, sounds the same, looks the same....and at that it;s not even all aspects of Desi culture, just their behavior and mentality. The inferiority complex, subservience to foreign invaders. There are positves as we have discussed.

This furthers my point, not yours. Your reasons for disparaging pakistan for being overly desi and resembling desis are moot if you’re going to be a sycophant to india. Had your insults been directed at pakistan’s unwanted imperialist behaviour each time, that would be a different story.

I mean there's no hard and fast quote, but a summary of your postings here really. the pieces create that picture. Make of that what you will.

Case closed. And I know there isn’t, that’s why I asked you to present it.

Extremely inaccurate interpretation, and attributing highly inaccurate motives. Just flat out wrong. That’s what’s being made of that.

No the problem is you keep back peddling, going from attacking bollywood to now validating it.

No, I don’t. You and your peers keep harping on about how much you dislike desi culture, yet bollywood is a prime contributor of it. My first statement was that if you dislike desi culture, and you’re having stronger ties with india, don’t be surprised if they export desi culture to you, and then I used bollywood as one example. This doesn’t mean desi culture is 100% bollywood.

You somehow expanded that into being an entire story about bollywood and nudity etc. As usual you’re attributing statements/claims/“pieces of a picture” to me that are simply inaccurate. I only said I’m not a fan of desi culture. But that’s a personal subjective thing, so who cares.

As well, I also said people are free to buy what they want, and that if Afghans were given a choice to purchase what they want (i.e. no one bans X or Y), india could have a big cultural influence on Afg.

Which it is, and therefore your naiveness on this issue is strange,

Be that as it may, I think I made it very clear when I said “desi culture” and “bollywood” in the same sentence. Not sure how you manage to expand these sentences to mean more than it does.

..and perhaps I'm misunderstanding you ......but you seem to accept this level of indecency but you're trying to "scare' us into being aligned with Pakistan because of Bollywood?

Work on your priorities, because if you're Pakhtun, you'd know what holds more concern.

lol and apparently I got accused of trying to use reverse psychology. I agree many Pakhtuns are highly religious. But there is no hard and fast rule on how they all should behave. There are many secular ones and many even westernized.

Many who are conservative will still watch things that may or may not deserve to be high priority. Either way, I'm just saying stuff like Veena Malik is not that big a deal when people have access to the internet. I don't personally like desi culture, but that's just subjective.

And you seem unusually defensive about it for a "Pakhtun"

Out of context (and a cheap shot). So much so that you didn’t even bother pasting the full sentence, and in fact you cut off the word “and” at the letter “a”. If you combine it with the full sentence, it makes a lot more sense. It may even make sense to you.

Yeah it's called context, it's something people who live outside of a 2 Dimensional world do, where they can think on different layers and nuance.

I think the word you’re looking for is hypocrisy.

Here’s the full sentence you responded to: "Lol... this is the part that cracks me up. I go through this website and all I see are insults to Desi personality, desi culture, desi this desi that, and Afghans are not like that, because they're central Asian. 2 seconds later you're making friends with Indians, i.e. the Desi headquarter of the planet. Do you not see the issue?"

I needed to paste that because you broke it into so many pieces with your responses that it didn’t even make sense any more. It’s pointing out the hypocrisy displayed by some, that’s all.

By the way your attempt at reverse psychology is kind of amateurish. and NOT effective

Look who's talking.

As of yet India hasn't sent suicide bombers into Afghan villages. When that happens we'll rethink things

Oh look at that. So you butchered a full point into little pieces, each one isolated with a minor diss dedicated to it… as if I had just said that sentence with no context, and then you finally come to the point. You insult pakistanis on their desiness, simply because you want to insult them. While that can be understandable, try to be a bit more honest and say it’s for political reasons.

No one is disputing that big portions of Pakistan is highly desi. It's just that if you (or not you but other people... doesn't matter who) think lower of them because of their desi-ness, applauding when your govt is pandering to indiot govt just makes it look highly hypocritical and in fact somewhat comical.

from a Pakhtun perspective desi is desi.

Sure.

They;re all technically Indian. Pakistan is just another form of India, but we embrace India because they have more to offer.

So if Pakistan had more to offer, would the insults referring to how desi they are vanish? That’s quiet a perk…

I never said Indians are all qualified professionals, but they sure have a good continence of them. More so than Pakistan from what it seems.

Uhhh… actually you did say that. Here: "i'm certainly not worried if Afghans develop a good work ethic, become qualified professionals and scientists, which also is something we might find in India.”

Why are you backtracking? Your more recent statement on them having “a good continence of them”… You base this on what?

Nice strawman

Refer to above. If it’s a strawman that’s merely because it's responding to a strawman. You said indians are hard working, blah blah blah based on nothing resembling evidence. At least I used a popular enough stereotype that I had no doubts you would have heard it. No popular opinion says what you’re saying. No stereo type says it. It’s literally based on nothing. It’s out of thin air. So yeah…

Considering that skilled labor is often imported from India.....those "Indian Americans" are basically the fruits of India.

This is just a childish response. I’m going to assume you jumped to conclusions instead of asking me to elaborate, so I’ll just elaborate. Indians in America i.e. Indian Americans who have done well (such as Kal Penn, Aziz Ansari, Nikki Haley) were all born in the US or moved there young. What credit does india get for that?

The skilled labor you refer to may be temporary workers and usually an internal intra-company transfer or recent immigrants. There are equivalent people from Pak as well, so it’s not specific to india. These workers do not respresent the country’s work ethic, and even if I go along and pretend india is the hardest working country in the world (hard at work pooing in the ganges) then so what? Are they giving you free labor? Are you going to invest in their factories? There’s nothing that will happen because of this that wasn’t happening before.

Now you’re in the habit of false attribution, so I shall say before you attribute something to me that I didn’t say, I’m not saying they are or are not hard workers (please don’t quote this without quoting the next sentence, my context loving friend). I’m saying there’s nothing to say they are more so than any of their neighbors, and it’s not popular opinion in any way that they are hard working (which is all we’re using, because, believe it or not, your opinions are not fact).

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck ....

Unfortunately you’re just hallucinating ducks.

WHat I found hilarious is how you tried to conflate Pakistan with Islam ......come on now.

Sentence you are referring to: "If the whole world wasn't so anti-Pak and anti-muslim in general, this would be serious."

What part of the sentence led you to reach that conclusion? How did I conflate them? Referring to 2 separate things in 1 sentence is not conflating.

Anti Pakistan is merely a generally negative/hostile opinion about Pakistan. Anti-Muslim in general is a negative opinion about all Muslims (not Islam). I specifically said Anti-Muslim because it’s quasi-racial (i.e. generally middle easterners/south asians who follow Islam) and makes no mention of how well or poorly they follow Islam.

Your pages of responses were based on a misunderstanding of this sentence it seems. Let’s put it to bed, you misunderstood, I never used the Islam card.

Then you really don';t have a point here. political expediency ruled your decisions.

Okay, so what would you have done if you were in Pak’s shoes? Take the hit? Do you not recall “you’re either with us or against us”? That’s a direct threat.

Musharraf even said before making a decision they thought through every possible scenario, including refusing and fighting. This was a matter of survival, there isn’t much of a choice in these situations.

Pervaiz Musharraf and Jon Stewart's Daily Show - Vidpk

False dichotomy more or less......

No it isn’t, but I would prefer to end this exchange and the reason for why it’s not has already been mentioned in this post. Hint: hypocrisy of those hurling insults.

[Elite Pakhtun]

You butchered 10 million Bangladeshis.

Now please, baby killer, stop talking to me. By engaging in talks with you that would mean that I am accepting you de facto as my equal. Obviously I don't consider you as my equal, so please, don't quote me anymore, cockroach. Pakistan is the enemy of Islam.

Why don't you make up your mind. Is it 3.5 million or 10 million? Let's settle on 1 billion. Pakistan butchered 1 billion Bangladeshis. Those animals!

I agree, we are certainly not equal. You are far far beneath me.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

. You somehow brought in the call centre into the space program.

That's what you mentioned...as if that invalidates India's merits.

I won’t talk about this extremely foolish space exploration topic you brought up after this post. We’ll see what happens. The end.

The point seems to have gone over your head. The space program is manifest evidence that India excels in scientific and intellectual development and Pakistan doesn't

This furthers my point, not yours. Your reasons for disparaging pakistan for being overly desi and resembling desis are moot if you’re going to be a sycophant to india. Had your insults been directed at pakistan’s unwanted imperialist behaviour each time, that would be a different story.

No, that;s just your naive emotional blackmail tactic, and poor reverse psychology strategy. You should learn to think outside the box, it's possible to look at things objectively, reject the and stem the shortcomings of something while acknowledging and focusing on the merits.

From my vantage point; you're coming off like a jealous Pakistan, with a bruised sense of esteem, I'm sorry to say.

When you say stuff like "Space program is no big deal", when you underfstand a space program ...a VIABLE space program will have a big impact on your nation's future.

Case closed. And I know there isn’t, that’s why I asked you to present it.

That's not how reason works; a single quote doesn't prove anything in itself; everything in context. When we compile everything you say..

from your medieval conspiracy theory on Sikhs, the delusion where you conflate being Anti-Muslim with Anti Pakistan. It's not that complicated to see the direction you're going. You almost always make statements which are ideologically biased, rather than examine things objectively.

Extremely inaccurate interpretation, and attributing highly inaccurate motives. Just flat out wrong. That’s what’s being made of that.

That'[s just avoidance without any valid demonstration for it.



No, I don’t. You and your peers keep harping on about how much you dislike desi culture, yet bollywood is a prime contributor of it. My first statement was that if you dislike desi culture, and you’re having stronger ties with india, don’t be surprised if they export desi culture to you, and then I used bollywood as one example. This doesn’t mean desi culture is 100% bollywood.

You somehow expanded that into being an entire story about bollywood and nudity etc. As usual you’re attributing statements/claims/“pieces of a picture” to me that are simply inaccurate. I only said I’m not a fan of desi culture. But that’s a personal subjective thing, so who cares.

As well, I also said people are free to buy what they want, and that if Afghans were given a choice to purchase what they want (i.e. no one bans X or Y), india could have a big cultural influence on Afg.

Be that as it may, I think I made it very clear when I said “desi culture” and “bollywood” in the same sentence. Not sure how you manage to expand these sentences to mean more than it does.

No, you didn't, and I'm willing to assert that you understood that it meant that, but back peddled when I showed how Pakistan is more contaminated with Bollywood than Afghanistan is, despite having the ideological zeitgeist to be anti India.

lol and apparently I got accused of trying to use reverse psychology. I agree many Pakhtuns are highly religious. But there is no hard and fast rule on how they all should behave. There are many secular ones and many even westernized.

Yeah the ilk you described are considered "Beghairat" and marginalized in mainstream Pashtun society. Not "Elite"

. Either way, I'm just saying stuff like Veena Malik is not that big a deal when people have access to the internet.

From Pashtun values , it's a huge deal .....huge....

If you combine it with the full sentence, it makes a lot more sense. It may even make sense to you.

It made sense the way I edited, the stuff I quoted was essentially your thesis in that response.

I think the word you’re looking for is hypocrisy.

If I were preaching that we should disregard all aspects of a society outright without taking a nuanced examination of their merits and drawbacks, then It'd be hypocrisy.

But since I didn't, it's simply not living in a world of 2 dimensional false dichotomies. OTHER options exist.

Here’s the full sentence you responded to: "Lol... this is the part that cracks me up. I go through this website and all I see are insults to Desi personality, desi culture, desi this desi that,

And I can see why that might sting the conscience of those who may bear the hidden guilt and humiliation of being lost to one's own heritage because of internalizing this Pakistan nationalist mind-worm.

and Afghans are not like that, because they're central Asian. 2 seconds later you're making friends with Indians, i.e. the Desi headquarter of the planet. Do you not see the issue?"

And that's perfectly fine, you can be allies with people without having to be LIKE them, you do understand that right?

I mean pakistan is allies with Saudia but it's not like Pakistanis grovel at Saudia's feet .....uh um wait .....bad example.

I needed to paste that because you broke it into so many pieces with your responses that it didn’t even make sense any more. It’s pointing out the hypocrisy displayed by some, that’s all.

I fail to see what's hypocritical; it's like you're saying I can't be against against French Colonialism in North Africa if I Like the Mathematical achievements of Pierre Fermat. this us simply the naive one dimensional thinking of the Pakistani Nationalist understanding oif the world from what I can infer.

All I can say is grown ups think differently.

Look who's talking.

You

While that can be understandable, try to be a bit more honest and say it’s for political reasons.

I've been saying that this whole time. I even said the reason why support India is because of Pakistan's behavior in the political sense. Our mockery of desis is another issue entirely.

, applauding when your govt is pandering to indiot govt just makes it look highly hypocritical and in fact somewhat comical.

Apples and oranges, Most Americans think the Saudi family are backwards desert thugs (which they are), our government still does business with them.. That's just how practicality works.

So if Pakistan had more to offer, would the insults referring to how desi they are vanish? That’s quiet a perk…

I feel like this is more about your hurt feelings than logic and reason.

Uhhh… actually you did say that. Here: "i'm certainly not worried if Afghans develop a good work ethic, become qualified professionals and scientists, which also is something we might find in India.”

See even the part you're quoting debunks that clause that you suggest.

Notice here the qualifiers "can" as opposed to "is" or "are".

Why are you backtracking? Your more recent statement on them having “a good continence of them”… You base this on what?

I'm not, you're simply interpolating without any contextual justification for it.

I base this on their scientific achievements and developments, among other things.

Refer to above. If it’s a strawman that’s merely because it's responding to a strawman.

Even if that was the case, you don;t straw man to debunk a strawman.

You said indians are hard working, blah blah blah based on nothing resembling evidence.

They've accomplished more than Pakistan, ....remember we're showing reasons why we're siding with India here.

At least I used a popular enough stereotype that I had no doubts you would have heard it. No popular opinion says what you’re saying. No stereo type says it. It’s literally based on nothing. It’s out of thin air. So yeah…

I don't make crucial decisions about society or my own life on stereotypes.

This is just a childish response. I’m going to assume you jumped to conclusions instead of asking me to elaborate, so I’ll just elaborate. Indians in America i.e. Indian Americans who have done well (such as Kal Penn, Aziz Ansari, Nikki Haley) were all born in the US or moved there young. What credit does india get for that?

You're talkng about entertainers and a politician, not professionals. apples and oranges.

The skilled labor you refer to may be temporary workers and usually an internal intra-company transfer or recent immigrants.

Also research scientists at NASA, universities and other organizations. In

There are equivalent people from Pak as well

Sure like Pervez Hoodbhoy, but he's also critical of the Pakistani intellectual establishment because it's lacking in quality and number when compared to India. Lot of what I'm saying is actually agreed on by Pakistani intellectuals themselves.

I’m saying there’s nothing to say they are more so than any of their neighbors, and it’s not popular opinion in any way that they are hard working (which is all we’re using, because, believe it or not, your opinions are not fact).

If your intellectuals are admitting it, who am I to disagree?

Unfortunately you’re just hallucinating ducks.

You mean like that conspiracy theory on how the Sikh religion emerged?

Sentence you are referring to: "If the whole world wasn't so anti-Pak and anti-muslim in general, this would be serious."

What part of the sentence led you to reach that conclusion? How did I conflate them? Referring to 2 separate things in 1 sentence is not conflating.

Pretty simply, Islam is not Pakistan, Pakistan is not islam, why are they being paired in the same sentence? That just makes no sense outside of Pakstani-Nationalist rhetoric.

Anti Pakistan is merely a generally negative/hostile opinion about Pakistan. Anti-Muslim in general is a negative opinion about all Muslims (not Islam). I specifically said Anti-Muslim because it’s quasi-racial (i.e. generally middle easterners/south asians who follow Islam) and makes no mention of how well or poorly they follow Islam.

Right and in the context you're censuring Afghanistan, for alligning with India, by appealing to Islam and associating that with Pakistan......there's no other logical reason to even make that statement when dealing with that context.

Your pages of responses were based on a misunderstanding of this sentence it seems. Let’s put it to bed, you misunderstood, I never used the Islam card.

I'm just point by point responding just as you have. If you don't want that, don't point by point respond.

But in that sentence as far as context shows, you were using the Islam card.

Okay, so what would you have done if you were in Pak’s shoes? Take the hit? Do you not recall “you’re either with us or against us”? That’s a direct threat.

You want us to take the hit because we happened to be two Muslim majority nations. Now this is what hypocrisy really is.

Musharraf even said before making a decision they thought through every possible scenario, including refusing and fighting. This was a matter of survival, there isn’t much of a choice in these situations.

Then why can't you understand we're also doing what's in our interest? You made your choice, why can't you handle ours? I'm not even a Nationalist, but from all practical considerations Afghanistan is right in aligning with India.

No it isn’t, but I would prefer to end this exchange and the reason for why it’s not has already been mentioned in this post. Hint: hypocrisy of those hurling insults.

Your call.

[Elite Pakhtun]

Well maybe it's not quiet ended just yet, but hopefully will conclude sooner or later.

That's what you mentioned...as if that invalidates India's merits.

Yes I did. But it was in reference to their professional caliber. Not their space program. I don't know how much Afghanistan will gain from India's space program, which has a bigger budget than Pakistan's and therefore has done a lot more. I hope they gain a lot... but I'm skeptical that's all.

The point seems to have gone over your head. The space program is manifest evidence that India excels in scientific and intellectual development and Pakistan doesn't

They have a better space program, but I don't agree that they excel in scientific and intellectual development. When a country has a bigger budget, even a ****-hole like india, who's main competitive advantage is overpopulation (i.e. cheap labor), will always have a bigger budget and therefore a superior space program.

No, that;s just your naive emotional blackmail tactic, and poor reverse psychology strategy. You should learn to think outside the box, it's possible to look at things objectively, reject the and stem the shortcomings of something while acknowledging and focusing on the merits.

From my vantage point; you're coming off like a jealous Pakistan, with a bruised sense of esteem, I'm sorry to say.

When you say stuff like "Space program is no big deal", when you underfstand a space program ...a VIABLE space program will have a big impact on your nation's future.

It is no big deal in the sense that majority of the countries in the world have some sort of a program. Pakistan has launched 2 satellites. Nothing special, I agree, but that's what "a space program" means.

That's not how reason works; a single quote doesn't prove anything in itself; everything in context. When we compile everything you say..

from your medieval conspiracy theory on Sikhs, the delusion where you conflate being Anti-Muslim with Anti Pakistan. It's not that complicated to see the direction you're going.

Ta sa mashoom ae... Please, on the Sikh thing, address it on the thread itself. You called it a veiled conspiracy theory, I asked you to tell me how. There's nothing in there that isn't known.

I did not conflate the two, those were 2 separate things mentioned in 1 sentence. Language allows for this by the by. I will address this later in this post.

You almost always make statements which are ideologically biased, rather than examine things objectively.

No I don't. I resent this accusation. You have nothing at all to back this up with. Not to mention it is inaccurate.

That'[s just avoidance without any valid demonstration for it.

Well the onus of all the accusations of a person (instead of the argument) is on you... so it's not on me to demonstrate anything about what I think.

No, you didn't, and I'm willing to assert that you understood that it meant that, but back peddled when I showed how Pakistan is more contaminated with Bollywood than Afghanistan is, despite having the ideological zeitgeist to be anti India.

Well, that's fine. I deny it, and I assert that I was very clear about the exporting of Desi culture via bollywood, and did not make any remark about vulgarity, western clothing, explicit content, etc. Anyone neutral reading this can feel free to go back and judge for themselves.

Yeah the ilk you described are considered "Beghairat" and marginalized in mainstream Pashtun society. Not "Elite"

I don't know. I'm sure it's different in different places, and maybe they are marginalized by some. However, it's up to you to decide who in your experience are more likely to be more westernized and secular between the middle/lower-middle and even lower class vs upper-middle and upper class. Now this isn't about class, but in many Asian countries, Pak (and India per my experience with many Indians) are no exception. Whether this applies to Afghanistan, I don't know. Probably not since it's such a backwards country.

I have seen online some Pakhtun nationalists who are outright hostile to religion. They believe it is causing the Pakhtun nation harm to be following Islam right now. Look, everyone is different. If you want to know who specifically I'm referring to, PM me, I can send you a link.

Also, I realize it's not really relevant, but I'm not some rich guy. I chose my nickname based on what sounded nice. I imagine myself to be a future tycoon, as I like to be highly ambitious. So that's why I used "Elite".

From Pashtun values , it's a huge deal .....huge....

Yes, I know. This is a separate topic on it's own. Not just Pakhtun, really most of the entire region consisting of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and even parts of India.

If I were preaching that we should disregard all aspects of a society outright without taking a nuanced examination of their merits and drawbacks, then It'd be hypocrisy.

But since I didn't, it's simply not living in a world of 2 dimensional false dichotomies. OTHER options exist.

OK look, I'm willing to concede that it may not have been you specifically that uses the "desi man" insult towards Pakistanis (even if they're Pakistani Pakhtuns who don't agree with the Afghan they're arguing with ), but I have seen it sufficiently on this site to bring it up. That's all. It was a comment on the posters here in general, however you decided to argue against it, so indirectly one could say you were defending them. Which is fine.

And that's perfectly fine, you can be allies with people without having to be LIKE them,

Yes... but singing their praises about how great they are and how much you love them as opposed to how "desi" Pakistanis are seems funny.

I mean pakistan is allies with Saudia but it's not like Pakistanis grovel at Saudia's feet .....uh um wait .....bad example.

Yes, Pakistan has had a weak hand for some time. So does Afghanistan. Not news.

I fail to see what's hypocritical; it's like you're saying I can't be against against French Colonialism in North Africa if I Like the Mathematical achievements of Pierre Fermat. this us simply the naive one dimensional thinking of the Pakistani Nationalist understanding oif the world from what I can infer.

Uhh... no it's not. It's like saying the French have disgusting, ugly, and have generally inferior physical and genetic traits, but there has been recent news about the Indian Division of Intelligence On Terrain and Space (IDIOTS) discovering planet France, the hub of all French people on the planet, everyone who hates the French decide to be best friends and bend over for this new planet. That's what it's like.

I've been saying that this whole time. I even said the reason why support India is because of Pakistan's behavior in the political sense. Our mockery of desis is another issue entirely.

Apples and oranges, Most Americans think the Saudi family are backwards desert thugs (which they are), our government still does business with them.. That's just how practicality works.

Sure. Well, in terms of practicality, doing business with Pakistan makes just as much sense. You will also notice that I never advocated severing ties with India, in fact I said it's best to be neutral instead of hostile (to Pak). Practicality demands it.

While you may have been saying it this whole time, you were addressing my initial post which was pointing out the whole desi thing.

I feel like this is more about your hurt feelings than logic and reason.

No, you said you "embrace them because they have more to offer". Anyways, I probably should've ignored this one.

See even the part you're quoting debunks that clause that you suggest.

Notice here the qualifiers "can" as opposed to "is" or "are".

I'm not, you're simply interpolating without any contextual justification for it.

Yes, you are correct in that it's a use of "might"... but it's very easy to interpret that as "veiled" attribution of some skill. "We might find it in India". Why "might" you find it in India? What makes you think you may find it in India vs. I dunno, Cambodia? It sounds like "hmmm... we might find the treasure there!".

I base this on their scientific achievements and developments, among other things.

Well... if that is the case, I will challenge that being the reason for their scientific achievements. I will argue they have gotten to where they are simply because of size. They have a large geographic area to control, as well as a large population. Much of their increased wealth has been seen with increases in globalization in the recent few decades. The 2nd largest population in the world MUST have made *some* money... certainly enough to have some basic achievements.

You were correct in that they will let their poor live in squalor to present an image of strength to the global public. It was in one of your past posts. Whether Afghanistan gains specifically from their space program or their technology remains to be seen.

I don't make crucial decisions about society or my own life on stereotypes.

Praising India, a known enemy of a country typically reviled by many Afghans (Pakistan), on an online forum is hardly a crucial decision.

You're talkng about entertainers and a politician, not professionals. apples and oranges.

You will see professionals from all over the place, including India and Pakistan.

You mean like that conspiracy theory on how the Sikh religion emerged?

That is just pathetic. You, as usual, are attributing something when it doesn't apply. Specifically when it's related to another thread, simply because your sub-par extrapolation skills has lead you believe things that are inaccurate. You follow that extrapolation by using it for ad-hominem attacks instead of a valid argument. One could just as easily say your opinion on the matter is a conspiracy theory. Anyways, address that topic in the relevant thread. Thanks.

Pretty simply, Islam is not Pakistan, Pakistan is not islam, why are they being paired in the same sentence? That just makes no sense outside of Pakstani-Nationalist rhetoric.

But in that sentence as far as context shows, you were using the Islam card.

I said the world is Anti-Pakistan and Anti-Muslim in general, therefore India's atrocities in Kashmir are not being covered. I.e. much of the world hates Muslims, and they also hate Pakistan. That is how it makes sense. 2 separate traits that are fairly common in today's world. These traits make them not give a **** about Kashmir atrocities. Does it make sense now?

Right and in the context you're censuring Afghanistan, for alligning with India, by appealing to Islam and associating that with Pakistan......there's no other logical reason to even make that statement when dealing with that context.

I'm just saying the claims of Pakistan supporting terrorism, a claim India has lobbied to everyone in the region, is not exclusive to Pakistan at all. India is highly terrorist in Kashmir. There was a small backlash because those ****bags think blinding people for life is acceptable as a state policy, and now they're going around trying to flex their muscle.

I understand why all the countries are cowering. India is likely a significant trading partner. They're not in a bargaining position. But I will say these countries are being hypocritical because the event in question is the Uri stuff.

Stop saying I'm appealing to Islam. Pretend the Kashmiris were Satanists if you like.

You want us to take the hit because we happened to be two Muslim majority nations. Now this is what hypocrisy really is.

Dude, I said many times I advocate neutrality for Afghanistan. I said specifically don't start burning bridges with Pakistan. Stop saying I said things I never said.

Then why can't you understand we're also doing what's in our interest?

I do understand that. Have form the beginning. Go to the posts if you don't believe me.

You made your choice, why can't you handle ours? I'm not even a Nationalist, but from all practical considerations Afghanistan is right in aligning with India.

Sure. Have as many trading partners as you can. Be neutral. I wonder if anyone said this before? Just don't burn bridges with Pak. India will likely try to convince Afghanistan to do so, and will try to have greater control.

Try being India's neighbor if you want a historically poor track record. Wonder we haven't had a war since we tested the nukes? Because those cockroaches are reluctant to get nuked (which the highly skilled, extremely esteemed people you love so much voted 46% in favor of getting nuked just to fight Pakistan...must be their NASA brains).

I will add something that hopefully minimizes the back and forths. If it's for the sake of a trading partner, and economic gains, then that's fine. I don't think many will hold a grudge for that specifically. Afghanistan is weak, they need trading partners. If it's for spite/creating enemies with Pakistan because of past events, then I would advise against it.

Also India is a hypocrite, but they have more power right now. A highly unfortunate situation.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Yes I did. But it was in reference to their professional caliber. Not their space program. I don't know how much Afghanistan will gain from India's space program, which has a bigger budget than Pakistan's and therefore has done a lot more. I hope they gain a lot... but I'm skeptical that's all.

You seem to not understand what tghe space program reference is about. It's not about whether we benefit from ithat program or not. That program is hard evidence that India's science and development capacity is world caliber. It's also evidence that Pakistan's is not.

They have a better space program, but I don't agree that they excel in scientific and intellectual development. When a country has a bigger budget, even a ****-hole like india, who's main competitive advantage is overpopulation (i.e. cheap labor), will always have a bigger budget and therefore a superior space program.

There's a Rumi saying "take the kernal and throw away the husk", sadly Pakistan's merits from our vantage point all husk no kernel. India at least has a kernel that could work for us.

It is no big deal in the sense that majority of the countries in the world have some sort of a program. Pakistan has launched 2 satellites. Nothing special, I agree, but that's what "a space program" means.

Quality not Quantity, this is the problem with Pakistani thinking.

Ta sa mashoom ae... Please, on the Sikh thing, address it on the thread itself. You called it a veiled conspiracy theory, I asked you to tell me how. There's nothing in there that isn't known.

zma pa zra mashoum ghunde yum lakin pa maghz ki sarray. I mentioned it here because you seem more driven by ideology than objectivity.

I did not conflate the two, those were 2 separate things mentioned in 1 sentence. Language allows for this by the by. I will address this later in this post.

In the context you said it it dealt with something very strongly centered within the Pakistani Geopolitical and ideological concern list.

hence the reference to Anti-Muslim , with Anti-Pakistan would only serve to demonstrate you associate the two together.

No I don't. I resent this accusation. You have nothing at all to back this up with. Not to mention it is inaccurate.

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

Well the onus of all the accusations of a person (instead of the argument) is on you... so it's not on me to demonstrate anything about what I think.

Well your comment history is my evidence, you don't make posts about "Indiots" and then act upset about Pakistan being ridiculed for being Desi, build Sikh conspiracy theories, and decry boycotting Pakistan with some implications of Anti-Islam, just out of nowhere.

Well, that's fine. I deny it, and I assert that I was very clear about the exporting of Desi culture via bollywood, and did not make any remark about vulgarity, western clothing, explicit content, etc. Anyone neutral reading this can feel free to go back and judge for themselves.

Well Maybe you didn't, but let us worry about that, so far we've done a better job at handling it, despite having exposure to Bollywood for many years. Pakistan hasn't as we see in the form of its actresses and performers that are just Bollywood clones.

I don't know. I'm sure it's different in different places, and maybe they are marginalized by some.

Even the people you speal about that would accept it, are in themselves a marginalized group.

OK look, I'm willing to concede that it may not have been you specifically that uses the "desi man" insult towards Pakistanis (even if they're Pakistani Pakhtuns who don't agree with the Afghan they're arguing with ), but I have seen it sufficiently on this site to bring it up. That's all. It was a comment on the posters here in general, however you decided to argue against it, so indirectly one could say you were defending them. Which is fine.

Well I've definitely made remarks about Desi society; however, I don't see Bollywood having much of an impact oin Afghans, we don't have any Veena Maliks running around at the moment. But we're also not hostile to India on that grounds. What astonishes me is that Pakisan are taught hostility with India and ta large number of them are emulating them.

Yes... but singing their praises about how great they are and how much you love them as opposed to how "desi" Pakistanis are seems funny.

You're being hyperbolic, I've never seen the word love used, but yes many of us definitely see India as a better practical option for us.

Yes, Pakistan has had a weak hand for some time. So does Afghanistan. Not news.

Whatever you say.

Uhh... no it's not.

That doesn't challenge my point. The notiion that you can be against many aspects of X, but still enjoy their merits as well.

Sure. Well, in terms of practicality, doing business with Pakistan makes just as much sense. You will also notice that I never advocated severing ties with India, in fact I said it's best to be neutral instead of hostile (to Pak). Practicality demands it.

After the evidence that yourself presented; that Pakistan was willing to concede to American threats. Pakistan has used terrorists as instruments to intimidate Afghans and so on, that neutrality would be feasible in that instance. The only way for neutrality to be achieved is if Pakistan changes its geopolitical agenda and strategic policy, which I don't see happening.

While you may have been saying it this whole time, you were addressing my initial post which was pointing out the whole desi thing.

Because it's clear that you're trying to use it as reverse psychology of some sort.

No, you said you "embrace them because they have more to offer". Anyways, I probably should've ignored this one.

And they do, and we should embrace them, we're talking in the Political, economic realms. I made no mentiomn of bollywood or culture. you mentioned that because you think that would discourage people. But to me I use Veena Malik as a measure of how much we have a lid on that.. If Pakistan who has an entire ideological policy to teach its citizens to revile India on every platform is still subdued that their women dispense themselves to emulate Indian media, then we don't have much to worry about, since that hasn't happened despite our exposure to it.

Yes, you are correct in that it's a use of "might"... but it's very easy to interpret that as "veiled" attribution of some skill. "We might find it in India". Why "might" you find it in India? What makes you think you may find it in India vs. I dunno, Cambodia? It sounds like "hmmm... we might find the treasure there!".

We've seen evidence.

Well... if that is the case, I will challenge that being the reason for their scientific achievements. I will argue they have gotten to where they are simply because of size.

WHatever is the reason; they're achieving things, Pakistan isn't, .....

You were correct in that they will let their poor live in squalor to present an image of strength to the global public. It was in one of your past posts. Whether Afghanistan gains specifically from their space program or their technology remains to be seen.

I remember , I still stand by that, Afghanistan's political concerns isn't feeding Indian mouths, it's feeding Afghan mouths.

Praising India, a known enemy of a country typically reviled by many Afghans (Pakistan), on an online forum is hardly a crucial decision.

Clearly that's a deep seated psychological trigger for you.

You will see professionals from all over the place, including India and Pakistan.

Quality not quantity,

That is just pathetic.

These are the pieces you leave behind, i have to draw context on what vantage point you express your views. I make no apology for that. That's not ad-hominem, as I'm not diminishing you as a person, but rather observing what's shaping your perspectives.

I said the world is Anti-Pakistan and Anti-Muslim in general, therefore India's atrocities in Kashmir are not being covered. I.e. much of the world hates Muslims, and they also hate Pakistan.

WHile it maybe true the two realities coexist, your reference to them, falls inline with the Pakistani political establishments ideology. Since you're a Nationalist, it's not hard to see that those two things you affiliate together.

Stop saying I'm appealing to Islam. Pretend the Kashmiris were Satanists if you like.

Kashmir is definitely something to be concerned about, however, we're dealing with Pakistan sending proxies to detonate themselves in our backyard. What would be more pressing for us and who's side would you take in that instance?

Dude, I said many times I advocate neutrality for Afghanistan. I said specifically don't start burning bridges with Pakistan. Stop saying I said things I never said.

You weren't neutral for us when American military acted, why should we be for you? You bowed to threats, fine, can't say I blame you, but that's not neutrality. You also profited from the "war on terror" and kept doing so for a decade after.

Try being India's neighbor

We're your neighbor and we've seen enough.

Also India is a hypocrite, but they have more power right now. A highly unfortunate situation.

And so is Pakistan unfortunately, we have to pick our hypocrites wisely.

[Elite Pakhtun]

zma pa zra mashoum ghunde yum lakin pa maghz ki sarray. I mentioned it here because you seem more driven by ideology than objectivity.

Well, really all it did was attempt to discredit my argument by using the label of conspiracy theorist. This was based on a separate thread where the use of that term was not really justified.

In the context you said it it dealt with something very strongly centered within the Pakistani Geopolitical and ideological concern list.

hence the reference to Anti-Muslim , with Anti-Pakistan would only serve to demonstrate you associate the two together.

I keep telling you you misunderstood. I just used 2 popular "bandwagons" if you will, both of which contribute to the blind eye turned towards Kashmir. 1 being anti-Pak, the other being anti-Muslim. Notice how I didn't include other popular bandwagons like anti-capitalism, or anti-ISIS. That's because those don't apply to this situation.

Well your comment history is my evidence, you don't make posts about "Indiots" and then act upset about Pakistan being ridiculed for being Desi, build Sikh conspiracy theories, and decry boycotting Pakistan with some implications of Anti-Islam, just out of nowhere.

That's not entirely accurate, but feel free to attribute what you want.

Well Maybe you didn't, but let us worry about that, so far we've done a better job at handling it, despite having exposure to Bollywood for many years. Pakistan hasn't as we see in the form of its actresses and performers that are just Bollywood clones.

Well I've definitely made remarks about Desi society; however, I don't see Bollywood having much of an impact oin Afghans, we don't have any Veena Maliks running around at the moment. But we're also not hostile to India on that grounds. What astonishes me is that Pakisan are taught hostility with India and ta large number of them are emulating them.

And they do, and we should embrace them, we're talking in the Political, economic realms. I made no mentiomn of bollywood or culture. you mentioned that because you think that would discourage people. But to me I use Veena Malik as a measure of how much we have a lid on that.. If Pakistan who has an entire ideological policy to teach its citizens to revile India on every platform is still subdued that their women dispense themselves to emulate Indian media, then we don't have much to worry about, since that hasn't happened despite our exposure to it.

We're just both predicting the future here and there's no hard and fast answer.

Even the people you speal about that would accept it, are in themselves a marginalized group.

umm... I don't know bro. Maybe it's better we're clear on what I mean by secular and westernized. I don't mean the girls there wear bikinis or drink/do drugs inside their parents house. There is no one I know where that would be acceptable. I mean having a greater slant towards western culture i.e. movies, music, probably clothes, etc. And secular means separation of religion from state politics, or generally thinking in not a very religious way.

They are not that marginalized. There's lots of them, you'd be surprised. They're usually upper-middle class i.e. they have a semi-decent house, in a big city, and make a decent income, send kids to private schools (nearly every school is private, but you know what I mean). This is in Pak at least. Maybe not in Afg, although I knew some Afghanis that were in my school when I was in Pak and they were very americanized. In their defense, they did live in the US for some time.

We've seen evidence.

That's hilarious. You start with something saying you've seen evidence, I ask you to present it, you then respond by saying you used the word "might" and not "100% it's like that brah", and now you're back to "we've seen evidence".

Quality not quantity,

What are you implying? That the quality of Indian professionals is somehow superior to the quality of professionals from say Pakistan, Sri Lanka, China, etc? Please tell me what you base this on. There's nothing about Indians being exceptional.

WHile it maybe true the two realities coexist, your reference to them, falls inline with the Pakistani political establishments ideology. Since you're a Nationalist, it's not hard to see that those two things you affiliate together.

I don't care, I'm not Pakistani political establishment, I don't even live in Pakistan and haven't for over 11 years. Pakistani political establishment isn't even a homogenized opinion producer. Lastly, I am not a nationalist (I assume you mean for country, and not the recent ethnic nationalist phenomena), but I did grow up in Pakistan and do have assets there, so I do have affiliation with the country. Also, I do not like India, and in this situation, I think Pakistan is the good guy. India is flexing it's muscle because Pakistan retaliated to India's deplorable behavior in Kashmir.

Kashmir is definitely something to be concerned about, however, we're dealing with Pakistan sending proxies to detonate themselves in our backyard. What would be more pressing for us and who's side would you take in that instance?

Do keep in mind that many who detonate themselves in our schools come from Afghanistan. Likely far more so than vice versa.

You weren't neutral for us when American military acted, why should we be for you? You bowed to threats, fine, can't say I blame you, but that's not neutrality. You also profited from the "war on terror" and kept doing so for a decade after.

If Afghanistan is being threatened, then fair enough, but this isn't an apples to apples comparison. The US is the only hegemonic power in the world right now, and they threatened direct military action on Pakistan. India is a dirt poor drama queen. Big difference.

And so is Pakistan unfortunately, we have to pick our hypocrites wisely.

That is fine. Again, I've been through this. Refer to previous posts.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Well, really all it did was attempt to discredit my argument by using the label of conspiracy theorist. This was based on a separate thread where the use of that term was not really justified.

That's what it sounds like a conspiracy theory

We're just both predicting the future here and there's no hard and fast answer.

Well your prediction should have come true already since Boillywood has been in Afghanistan for a very long time. So no.

They are not that marginalized. There's lots of them, you'd be surprised. They're usually upper-middle class

This is a bait and switch, we were talking about the moral disgust towards Veena Malik, even the most liberal Pashtun would be. Clearly you're not .....makes me wonder.

That's hilarious. You start with something saying you've seen evidence, I ask you to present it,".

Their space program which makes the entire Pakistani scientific establishment look rather amateurish.

What are you implying? That the quality of Indian professionals is somehow superior to the quality of professionals from say Pakistan,

Pakistan for sure.

I don't care, I'm not Pakistani political establishment,

But you're doing all their nationalist footwork. .....

Do keep in mind that many who detonate themselves in our schools come from Afghanistan. Likely far more so than vice versa.

yeah that's called blowback from brainwashing poor Afghan kids to do stupid things. You nurtured extremism now it's haunting you.

If Afghanistan is being threatened, then fair enough, but this isn't an apples to apples comparison. The US is the only hegemonic power in the world right now, and they threatened direct military action on Pakistan. India is a dirt poor drama queen. Big difference.

In other words, you went with political benefit rather than standing by principles which you want Afghans to do on some ground of Muslim britherhood. ......No I don't think that's grounds for neutrality. The only difference is one served your interests and one goes against your interests. Very disingenuous argument.

Practice what you preach my friend.

That is fine. Again, I've been through this. Refer to previous posts.

But you reply back so clearly it's not fine.

[Elite Pakhtun]

Well your prediction should have come true already since Boillywood has been in Afghanistan for a very long time. So no.

The environment in Afghanistan has been changing, and continues to do so. Things typically change further once there's some level of economic growth as well. Again, I don't know what will happen. Hopefully you're right... but we're just trying to predict the future. Things aren't always linear.

This is a bait and switch, we were talking about the moral disgust towards Veena Malik, even the most liberal Pashtun would be. Clearly you're not .....makes me wonder.

No we weren't. We were talking about Pakhtuns that were secular being marginalized part of society. Veena Malik was a separate topic and more about how Pak is closer to Bollywood than Afg. There was no intersection of Veena Malik and what Pakhtuns thought of her.

yeah that's called blowback from brainwashing poor Afghan kids to do stupid things. You nurtured extremism now it's haunting you.

Agreed.

In other words, you went with political benefit rather than standing by principles which you want Afghans to do on some ground of Muslim britherhood. ......No I don't think that's grounds for neutrality. The only difference is one served your interests and one goes against your interests. Very disingenuous argument.

For the thousandth time, I don't care what Afghanistan does as long as relations are still somewhat positive. Even if I did, it would absolutely not be on the grounds of "Muslim brotherhood".

But you're doing all their nationalist footwork. .....

Sub-par reverse psychology attempt. Would give it a low score.