Modernity and Western social and cultural values are two separate phenomena

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

In Muslim world, mimicking Western lifestyle is often presented as modernity. Erosion of morality and religious values is seen as a sign of progress. We are told that if we accept this faux notion of modernity, in exchange we will receive better health care, education, economic prosperity and overall better human condition.

But let us look at a few examples of countries where this type of modernity was established long ago.

Turkey: from the fall of the Othoman empire up until early 2000's most of rural Turkey was no different than average disadvantaged Middle Eastern society. There were very few asfalt roads, electricity and other types of infrastructure. The Kurds were entirely detached from economic prosperity and education.

In most Turkish cities, the quality of health care and education wasn't any better than than that of a country like Yemen or Pakistan. The fact that the hijab was removed and drinking of alcohol was made permissible did not result in substantial betterment of human condition in Turkey.

Other examples of this type of faux modernity can be seen in countries like Tunesia and Syria. People can go to night clubs, buy alcohol, watch women dancing and singing. The absence of fully veiled women and bearded men from public life are seen as signs of modernity and civility. These faux modern societies in the Muslim world are often very oppressive and intolerant. They are breeding grounds for extremism and various cults and sects.

if we want to modernize our societies, we need to stop mimicking Western people. We need to learn science and technology from them. We need to modernize our education system where our youth can learn and apply the advanced sciences. We need to learn about modern infrastructure, sustainability and renewables. We need to invest in things that can substantially improve the human condition.

By investing in science and technology, we can improve the socio-economic situation of Muslim countries. This will protect our youth from religious extremism, nationalism and intolerance.

So far, all the modernity we have seen from the likes of Amanullah Khan, the communists and the current secular democrats is mere mimicking of Western culture and lifestyle. They have failed to modernize our society. In fact their idea of modernity is actually setting us back and they are provoking reactionaries. Rejectionism among groups like ISIS and the Taliban is a byproduct of this faux modernity of secular liberalists in Muslim societies.

This is why I am in favor of modernity but against secular liberal notion of modernity. Because I think modernity is more than just mimicking Western lifestyle.

[Firdousi]

In Muslim world, mimicking Western lifestyle is often presented as modernity. Erosion of morality and religious values is seen as a sign of progress. We are told that if we accept this faux notion of modernity, in exchange we will receive better health care, education, economic prosperity and overall better human condition.

But let us look at a few examples of countries where this type of modernity was established long ago.

Turkey: from the fall of the Othoman empire up until early 2000's most of rural Turkey was no different than average disadvantaged Middle Eastern society. There were very few asfalt roads, electricity and other types of infrastructure. The Kurds were entirely detached from economic prosperity and education.

In most Turkish cities, the quality of health care and education wasn't any better than than that of a country like Yemen or Pakistan. The fact that the hijab was removed and drinking of alcohol was made permissible did not result in substantial betterment of human condition in Turkey.

Other examples of this type of faux modernity can be seen in countries like Tunesia and Syria. People can go to night clubs, buy alcohol, watch women dancing and singing. The absence of fully veiled women and bearded men from public life are seen as signs of modernity and civility. These faux modern societies in the Muslim world are often very oppressive and intolerant. They are breeding grounds for extremism and various cults and sects.

if we want to modernize our societies, we need to stop mimicking Western people. We need to learn science and technology from them. We need to modernize our education system where our youth can learn and apply the advanced sciences. We need to learn about modern infrastructure, sustainability and renewables. We need to invest in things that can substantially improve the human condition.

By investing in science and technology, we can improve the socio-economic situation of Muslim countries. This will protect our youth from religious extremism, nationalism and intolerance.

So far, all the modernity we have seen from the likes of Amanullah Khan, the communists and the current secular democrats is mere mimicking of Western culture and lifestyle. They have failed to modernize our society. In fact their idea of modernity is actually setting us back and they are provoking reactionaries. Rejectionism among groups like ISIS and the Taliban is a byproduct of this faux modernity of secular liberalists in Muslim societies.

This is why I am in favor of modernity but against secular liberal notion of modernity. Because I think modernity is more than just mimicking Western lifestyle.

The funny fact about Turkey is that since Ataturk founded the modern Turkish state that country didn't improve too much on the economic and life quality aspects. Turkey since her creation as a modern republic has remained as a weak and poor country begging at the European table for their approval. Its just in modern times, when Erdogan got into the office that country has become once again a regional power with a strong economy. And also when it comes to minority rights, infrastructure, etc Turkey has improved under a pro-religious government.


Recep Tayyip Erdo& - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

The funny fact about Turkey is that since Ataturk founded the modern Turkish state that country didn't improve too much on the economic and life quality aspects. Turkey since her creation as a modern republic has remained as a weak and poor country begging at the European table for their approval. Its just in modern times, when Erdogan got into the office that country has become once again a regional power with a strong economy. And also when it comes to minority rights, infrastructure, etc Turkey has improved under a pro-religious government.


Recep Tayyip Erdo& - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's not because of his Islamist image. He just happened to be smart enough to allow his country's economy to prosper.

Nothing Erdogan has done so far is strictly or exclusively Islamic. A secular liberal atheist or a Christian could achieve the same results. Which brings me to another important fact: there are many non-Muslim leaders who have done allot to improve the lives of people in their country. Secular liberal democrats in Muslim countries claim that that they want to achieve similar results. Yet they haven't done anything like their Western counterparts. While they claim they are pursuing same results, they aren't doing anything like them. Look at Ashraf Ghani. western educated, secular liberal who claims he wants to reform Afghanistan. Yet all he does is give jobs to his Logari relatives and empower thugs and warlords.

[Karachi]

I actually agree with you with the few things you have said here, One thing I really dislike about the west is the family life/system is in ruins here, Canada where I live has a divorce rate of 50%, people get divorces here for even the simple of issues. A country like India, has a divorce rate of less then 5%, look at the difference. The point is, there are good things in eastern and western cultures/values, as humans we just need to follow the good things from every culture and avoid the bad

however I will still say that the (rotten) cultures of many muslim parts of the world are no good to human civilization, they have nothing to offer but bad things. Muslims need to rethink and reinvent their cultures to become better human beings, two countries like Pakistan/Afghanistan are the probably the worse examples of human behavior/civilization

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

I actually agree with you with the few things you have said here, One thing I really dislike about the west is the family life/system is in ruins here, Canada where I live has a divorce rate of 50%, people get divorces here for even the simple of issues. A country like India, has a divorce rate of less then 5%, look at the difference. The point is, there are good things in eastern and western cultures/values, as humans we just need to follow the good things from every culture and avoid the bad

however I will still say that the (rotten) cultures of many muslim parts of the world are no good to human civilization, they have nothing to offer but bad things. Muslims need to rethink and reinvent their cultures to become better human beings, two countries like Pakistan/Afghanistan are the probably the worse examples of human behavior/civilization

Agreed. I think we can't benefit from all the modern things in life if we don't change our culture. But I think if the level of education increases and people are better off financially, they may change culturally as well. I just hope we don't become shallow materialist nihilists like Eastern Europeans after the fall of Warshaw pact. They don't have religion, they don't have morality but they have money and prosperity now. Without religion and morality prosperity is meaningless.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

This is an excellent topic; another reason why most of the Indics who have come to this forum have hampered us tremendously with their ipersonal baggage like "Will Vladmir Putin be the Mahdi?" type threads that Bengal Tiger pulled.


Anyways with regards to the thread. I believe this issue is a complex one and should be tackled with a balanced approach.. Now I'm not claiming that my perspective is the end all and be all, but it's something that can be useful if we're going to relaying fresh ideas about our greater interests as a people.


This blind narrative that Westernization implies Modernization is one side of the coin;it is coupled and often reinforced with the other side of the coin, the distorted that rejecting progress Is Islamic and a form of resistance against the hegemony of Western Liberalism.

Therefore we should re-evaluate the narrative comprehensively as well; on all fronts. Deconstructing it in a panoramic sense.

Plainly, there's nothing intrinsic in our religious or cultural heritage which should hamper on progress and development, especially in science and technology. However, there definitely are regressive voices that could do so.

There are many ideologues who tell people to shun modern medicine and vaccinations, prevent women from access to health care, push marriages of girls that are under developed/under aged. This has numerous and many complicated factors involved. Like the fact most people are rural, agrarian or pastoralists, lack of appropriate information and so on, but some of the most compelling facts stem from misguided religious leaders and chieftans/elders which in our current Afghan social climate; will be very hard to grasp because we have a society of demagogy. Often these leaders help to enable these pitfalls and use religious pretext to justify it. These people of course should be discredited, as they are wrongly representing the aims and standards of Islam. But it's going to be challenging because of the amount of social currency they possess, but if they're brought to task on Islam, and challenged with solid evidence from Islamic History; here's a good chance they may have to come to terms.

These false dichotomies are mutually symbiotic and play of the same premise.

There's also this idea that Firdousi and I played around with not too long ago, the notion that the West represents Individualism and the "East" Communalism. While there is some characteristic evidence for that; after thinking about it some more, I think having this construct might not be truly accurate or even beneficial since it may manufacture and reinforce incorrect dichotomies.

Instead, I feel that historically while communal or community interests definitely played a strong role in Our social structure, the significance, merits and responsibility of the individual were also strongly emphasized. What we had was an interplay, a strive for equilibrium between the interests of the individual and the interests of the greater whole.

The Current status quo in the West in my view cosmetically stresses individualism; but it seems like more of a veneer; mainly encourages self indulgence but people act upon it sheepishly like lemmings. If you notice that over all, the variation of social trends isn't that dynamic in Western cultures, which suggests that their contemporary version of individualism is sort of superficial and juvenile. It's more about having "tattoos" and haircuts that look like a drunk gardener did it.

The best interplay is this equilibrium; understanding the role of of the individual as a microcosm that influences and serves the microcosmic whole.

[Azmal]

I actually agree with you with the few things you have said here, One thing I really dislike about the west is the family life/system is in ruins here, Canada where I live has a divorce rate of 50%, people get divorces here for even the simple of issues. A country like India, has a divorce rate of less then 5%, look at the difference. The point is, there are good things in eastern and western cultures/values, as humans we just need to follow the good things from every culture and avoid the bad

however I will still say that the (rotten) cultures of many muslim parts of the world are no good to human civilization, they have nothing to offer but bad things. Muslims need to rethink and reinvent their cultures to become better human beings, two countries like Pakistan/Afghanistan are the probably the worse examples of human behavior/civilization

Divorce is very common in Arabian countries, specially in gulf Arab countries...keep in mind economical dependency of women and subservient cultural/legal status it is extremely high.

http://www.emirates247.com/news/regi...01-20-1.535359

[torkham]

In Muslim world, mimicking Western lifestyle is often presented as modernity. Erosion of morality and religious values is seen as a sign of progress. We are told that if we accept this faux notion of modernity, in exchange we will receive better health care, education, economic prosperity and overall better human condition.

But let us look at a few examples of countries where this type of modernity was established long ago.

Turkey: from the fall of the Othoman empire up until early 2000's most of rural Turkey was no different than average disadvantaged Middle Eastern society. There were very few asfalt roads, electricity and other types of infrastructure. The Kurds were entirely detached from economic prosperity and education.

In most Turkish cities, the quality of health care and education wasn't any better than than that of a country like Yemen or Pakistan. The fact that the hijab was removed and drinking of alcohol was made permissible did not result in substantial betterment of human condition in Turkey.

Other examples of this type of faux modernity can be seen in countries like Tunesia and Syria. People can go to night clubs, buy alcohol, watch women dancing and singing. The absence of fully veiled women and bearded men from public life are seen as signs of modernity and civility. These faux modern societies in the Muslim world are often very oppressive and intolerant. They are breeding grounds for extremism and various cults and sects.

if we want to modernize our societies, we need to stop mimicking Western people. We need to learn science and technology from them. We need to modernize our education system where our youth can learn and apply the advanced sciences. We need to learn about modern infrastructure, sustainability and renewables. We need to invest in things that can substantially improve the human condition.

By investing in science and technology, we can improve the socio-economic situation of Muslim countries. This will protect our youth from religious extremism, nationalism and intolerance.

So far, all the modernity we have seen from the likes of Amanullah Khan, the communists and the current secular democrats is mere mimicking of Western culture and lifestyle. They have failed to modernize our society. In fact their idea of modernity is actually setting us back and they are provoking reactionaries. Rejectionism among groups like ISIS and the Taliban is a byproduct of this faux modernity of secular liberalists in Muslim societies.

This is why I am in favor of modernity but against secular liberal notion of modernity. Because I think modernity is more than just mimicking Western lifestyle.

Perhaps one of the most illuminating observation made. So many people I deal with have interchangeably used modernity and westernisation.
The sooner we see the distinction it will lead us to realising that aping and glorifying the west has disasterous consequences on us, our children and our future.

[torkham]

I think the malali Iranian government has modernised Iran as opposed to westernising it in terms of the education, health and welfare systems. The government has since 79 rejected westernising models, like the shah had tried.
The resistance to their (current malali) governmental success is the progeny of the hedonistic class; they cant get enough of the west esp. america and equally determined to shake the islamic past. As for the malali, if it wasn't for their shia deviation, many sunni governments may have learnt a lesson.

[Firdousi]

I think the malali Iranian government has modernised Iran as opposed to westernising it in terms of the education, health and welfare systems. The government has since 79 rejected westernising models, like the shah had tried.
The resistance to their (current malali) governmental success is the progeny of the hedonistic class; they cant get enough of the west esp. america and equally determined to shake the islamic past. As for the malali, if it wasn't for their shia deviation, many sunni governments may have learnt a lesson.

Spot-on.

[Elite Pakhtun]

The unfortunate thing about "modernity" and "progressiveness" is that, over time, I have noticed the definition changing. These days, it appears to be a slant towards a more communist/socialist world. That is a grave mistake.

Hitler arose in that environment. His claims were that the Jews started Bolshevism aka marxism aka socialism, and this resulted in a Germany where the status quo was almost set in stone. Surprise surprise, per Hitler, the Jews had the positions of importance while everyone else was artificially leveled per the rules of socialism. So everyone was poor, while the few jews got rich. After that he killed Jews and socialists and even went as far as attacking the USSR when it wasn't necessary. Ironically, his form of fascism was very similar to socialism, only he was in charge.

Anyways, this is probably not relevant, but the important thing I'm trying to point out is a lot of the left leaning stuff is marketed as modernity, which I think is highly unfortunate. It's begging for qayamat wraz. There is obviously value to it, mainly not being so narrow minded that scientific value is hindered/or people make amateur decisions. But it's certainly not the be all end all. Nothing is. And if something was, you wouldn't know about it.

[Forreigner]

Yes we must modernize (improve our social and economical conditions)...but we must not westernize (mimick western cultures wrongly thinking it's progressive)....the difference between the two is great...although many wrongly assume they mean the same...