Should Wahhabism be eliminated to stop terrorism?

[Karachi]

The problem with a lot religious/extremist muslims is at first they always support such groups, but when they come to bite them in the ass, they change their opinions and start condemning them. This is the stupidity of most muslims, why can't they just to the right thing from the beginning, muslims make such a mockery of themselves

[Firdousi]

The problem with a lot religious/extremist muslims is at first they always such groups, but when they come to bite them in the ass, they change their opinions and start condemning them. This is the stupidity of most muslims, why can't they just to the right thing from the beginning, muslims make such a mockery of themselves

Ok, Muslims are the worst human beings walking the earth.

Please, provide information about how we can leave this madness behind? Provide solutions, brother.

You are one of those typical negroes, Western wannabes, suffering from inferiority complex. You look down on your own people instead helping them to change. From now on I shall call you Uncle Tom. You are a disgrace.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

This is written by a Sufi from Zaytuna institute by the name of Abdullah bin Hamid Ali:
"Eliminate Wabbism/Salafism, you'll... - Abdullah bin Hamid Ali | Facebook

"Eliminate Wabbism/Salafism, you'll eliminate ISIS."

Though I strongly disagree with this assertion, it is the sentiment of a many Muslims today. The underlying assumptions of the above statement are the following:

1) ideology "alone" radicalizes;
2) any person or group endorsing /justifying violence will "inevitably" act violently;
3) Wahhabis/Salafis are the "only" Muslims who justify violence against others; and
4) if we eliminate the ideology, we will eradicate senseless violence from the planet.

Muslims who promote such ideas overlook/omit the following:

1) it was Sufis who endorsed suicide bombings against Israelis and others, while Wahhabis were largely against them;

2) non-Wahhabi Muslims who say Islam means "peace" (even though it really means "submission") were often the first to put their support behind the Arab spring, the "violent" overthrow of their governors, and called for armed Western intervention;

3) prior to the Arab Spring, Wahhabis were largely apolitical and focused all of their attention on trying to "correct" the understanding of Muslims in general;

4) it was the Sufis and other Muslims calling for the overthrow of Arab governors with fatwas justifying spilling their blood on the basis of them being "apostates" or "unbelievers" i.e. the same principle (takfir = anathematization) often identified as being the root of the Wahhabi threat;

5) if the existence of an ideology is what makes it a threat, this would corroborate the claims of Islamophobes that "Islam" is the real threat to world peace, not simply ISIS, Qaeda, or Wahhabis. In other words, Muslims who live in this imaginary world without nuance indirectly endorse an ideology which can potentially undo Islam completely;

6) Not every Wahhabi/Salafi is the same. While Muslims are constantly asking the non-Muslim public not to overgeneralize about us and Islam, we turn around and do the same thing to Wahhabis/Salafis;

7) an endorsement of this assertion is to fundamentally paint non-Wahhabis as the "good" Muslims and them as the "evil-doers." So non-Muslims need not worry about us as long as they use all of their military might to rid the world of them; and

8) to insist that Wahhabi ideology is the root of the emergence of ISIS is to absolve western governments from the major role they played in making it possible for ISIS to rise to power, starting with the dismantling of the Iraqi regime. There are more things I could list. But, this list of contentions should hopefully highlight the contradictions and inconsistencies in this form of reasoning. Some of us are so blinded and obsessed with championing our own ideology, they overlook how they dehumanize their opponents and threaten the lives of so many innocent souls. Think. Reflect. Repent.

I ask myself every day if the world and its factions are getting more naive? more stupid? a combination of the two? more duplicitous?

Cause and effect. Pretty much every piece of hard data we have at hand shows that its the perception (whether its correct or not does not really matter since we are talking about what motivates people to do things) of being wronged, occupied, insulted, invaded that correlates best with extremist actions and recruitment. To explain causality does not mean a ringing endorsement. But to understand causes, not colored by our own biases and our own desires to see the world the way we want it seen, is to hold the key to stopping these crises. However, I think its fair to say that certain factions absolutely do not benefit from these conflicts stopping (economic and political interests) and some of these same groups seek to muddy the waters of understanding cause and effect because this perpetuates their gain.

To start off with some humor and to relate what is going on with bygone eras (because sometimes how you remove the filter or acrimony from a discussion is to move to a topic not rooted in ethno-religious conflict that can be personal).

Here is a famous scene from Godfather 2.
rebels vs a regular army - Godfather II - YouTube

Michael Corleone is describing a common event in Batista's Cuba all those decades ago when Cuba was essentially occupied land and the Cuban people suffered immensely under Batista. Che Guevara and Castro led a revolution that started out small but gained traction and Castro was the first real Cuban to actually lead Cuba in over a hundred years. The scene described a rebel destroying himself and a police captain. I will let you watch it on your own. Now, the reality of the matter was that whether what Che and Castro bought was just or not really mattered little to what fueled the war and what fueled the abject failure of Bay of Pigs a few years later... that fuel was the occupation economically and militarily and culturally of Cuba.

Fast forward to the Protestant Catholic divide that is now again coming to the fore in the Brexit issues in the UK. Sinn Fein and other groups amongst the IRA loyalists viewed Catholic territory and the Irish Catholics as being under the boot heel of the Anglican British leadership. This fueled intense hate and resentment. Many of us are still old enough to recall the IRA campaigns that even congressmen (hypocritical ones) like Peter King backed and that peace advocates like John Lennon also backed.

In the Pre-ISIS era, an important study was undertaken to understand the motivations of the current men fighting in this conflict/worldwide insurgency.

How Islamist Extremists Quote the Qur’an | CSC Center for Strategic Communication

This study analyzed the most frequently cited or quoted verses in the Center for Strategic Communication’s database of over 2,000 extremist texts. The texts date from the years 1998 to 2011, and originate primarily from the Middle East and North Africa. Taking this data as a starting point, we provide a qualitative analysis of the historical contexts and core narrative components of the cited passages.

Note 2011 is when the study stops and that is around the time when the current re-igniting of the insurgency began under that new group.

What did the study authors with their large sample size (N = 2000) across a wide geographical and temporal analysis find?

We conclude that verses extremists cite from the Qur’an do not suggest an aggressive offensive foe seeking domination and conquest of unbelievers, as is commonly assumed. Instead they deal with themes of victimization, dishonor, and retribution. This shows close integration with the rhetorical vision of Islamist extremists.

And I would posit that events such as what happened recently with the 4th time leveling of Falluja will only fuel the rise of even more radical groups and ideologies because war that does not annihilate the enemy or lay him prostrate pushes a Darwinian evolution of ideologies and fighters to the "strongest and most fierce will rise to the top."

Here is an excellent investigation into the rise of the recent group in the news and their roots:

As sectarian violence flares in Iraq, Gerrond thinks back to a "chilling conversation" he had with a "Shia Iraqi corrections officer" at Camp Bucca. He "stated to me (through a translator) that when the Americans departed Iraq, his only request was that we leave them enough ammunition so that they could kill all the [Sunni] detainees that were being held."

Was Iraq's Top Terrorist Radicalized at a US-Run Prison? | Mother Jones

There are countless statements from Sunni tribal leaders about why they also threw their temporary lot in with this group since they viewed themselves as in a sense territory-wise and otherwise occupied by the Iranian backed Shiite regimen. Once again, cause and effect might say that Saddam's own mismanagement and inability to sew back together the Sunni Shiite rift after he punished the Shiite population post Gulf war 1 for offering to help an invasion force was a cause effect factor in pushing Shiites like Sistani to work with the invading force. Everyone must acknowledge that this is a cycle of violence that did not begin just yesterday.

One thing we can be sure about though is that the strategy of utilizing Shiite militias to invade Sunni territory that does not completely destroy every single Sunni alive will leave behind some survivors with a grudge (synonym for cause-effect) and these folks will resort to even more aggressive (desperate?) measures than the current group in the news.

Islam, Wahhabism, Sunnism, Shiaism, Takfirism, Ikhwanism etc have little to do in being a primary motivating factor. In times relative peace and prosperity these groups often are side lined or less able to exert excess influence. But when the doors to war are thrown open, people, tribes, clans will take refuge in ANY idea or ism that gives them a moral imperative. We see this in the Tamil conflict, in the Marxist Latin American uprisings of the 70s and 80s, Irish militant Catholics, etc.

We might even say the radical Knights Templar back in the days of the Crusades that utterly desecrated Jerusalem was in response to a perceived invasion and occupation and usurping of Christian and European rights that Pope Urban II used to galvanize with his militant calls for a responsive Crusade.

Other softer versions of this are these current cause and effect paradigms across the European and American continents to economic factors and perpetual war.

In the rise of Trump and other potential autocrats you have a large swathe of people who have a sense of perceived wrongs and disenfranchisement that are appealing to another powerful "ism" ---> Nationalism to militarize and militantize people.

To end on a story of how powerful this sense of being imposed upon can be and what it can be utilized for to even overcome the DNA imposed and designed will to survive - I will end with a story of a famous Southern black slave:

The Garners made it safely to Kite’s home on Monday morning, where they awaited their next guide. Within hours, the Garners’ master, A.K. Gaines, and Federal marshals stormed Kite’s home with warrants for the Garners. Determined not to return to slavery, Margaret decided to take the lives of herself and her children. When the marshals found Margaret in a back room, she had slit her two-year-old daughter’s throat with a butcher knife, killing her. The other children lay on the floor wounded but still alive. -

Margaret Garner Incident (1856) | The Black Past: Remembered and Reclaimed

So people can do their best to attack any of the isms out there, be it communism, Islamism, Republicanism, Nationalism, Wahhabism and they may make some headway in relatively restful, well fed, upper class populations... but they wont make a da-mn bit of difference or headway in the rest of the Muslim world.

And now that this conflict is an economic engine for a huge military industry - there really is no real incentive to completely end this conflict. That would only happen if the costs exceed the benefits. The options then left would be for the West to disengage and not intervene (this includes not backing governments that do not represent their people etc) unless it was truly to their national security benefit, or to just annihilate every part of that region.

Now Karachi (Crotchee) you idiot house slave, to preempt your attempt to lubricate your whole body and climb into Jennifer's dad (the girl that only nominally keeps you around as a house pet) anus by providing some emotional response that borders on cliche by now, I have one thing to say - go **** yourself lol.

[Karachi]

Ok, Muslims are the worst human beings walking the earth.

Please, provide information about how we can leave this madness behind? Provide solutions, brother.

You are one of those typical negroes, Western wannabes, suffering from inferiority complex. You look down on your own people instead helping them to change. From now on I shall call you Uncle Tom. You are a disgrace.

I dont consider "muslims" my own people. why should I? Why should I give them special treatment. Again, I am not a western wanabe, never have been. You can call me a human wanabee, I want to treat people equally regardless of religion, this has always been my theme on this forum

I agree solutions must be provided, however it is hard to provide solutions to a people who are so dead

Only the new generation can offer some hope

[Firdousi]

I dont consider "muslims" my own people. why should I? Why should I give them special treatment. Again, I am not a western wanabe, never have been. You can call me a human wanabee, I want to treat people equally regardless of religion, this has always been my theme on this forum

I agree solutions must be provided, however it is hard to provide solutions to a people who are so dead

Only the new generation can offer some hope

Let me give you some advice, b*stard. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not.

-Tyrion Lannister.


Ok.. since Muslims are "dead people".. your only solution is b*tching against them online? Please, if you have any solution or advice, I would gladly take it. Your insults are pointless.

You are truly a loser, man. I had some respect for you but now I realize you are sick. I can feel your inferiority complex through the screen. I want also changes for my "people" and I know how difficult is the current state of the Islamic world. But I will never give up and I will try to help Muslims to change their behavior and mentality. I am not a coward loser like you.

You are disgusting. I feel nothing but disdain for effeminate weak cowards like you. Dont even talk to me again.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

....You're a human wannabe .... but it just so happens your model of what you deem as "being human" represents someone emulating cultural ideologues of Westerners.

which is very telling, it implies that you internalize this notion that people who don't adopt Western standards are somehow less than human

This reeks all sorts of House Slave mentality all over it.

[Karachi]

Let me give you some advice, b*stard. Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not.

-Tyrion Lannister.


Ok.. since Muslims are "dead people".. your only solution is b*tching against them online? Please, if you have any solution or advice, I would gladly take it. Your insults are pointless.

You are truly a loser, man. I had some respect for you but now I realize you are sick. I can feel your inferiority complex through the screen. I want also changes for my "people" and I know how difficult is the current state of the Islamic world. But I will never give up and I will try to help Muslims to change their behavior and mentality. I am not a coward loser like you.

You are disgusting. I feel nothing but disdain for effeminate weak cowards like you. Dont even talk to me again.

Your're a harami confused moron, first you call yourself secular, yet act as the biggest defender of Islam and muslims even more so then some of the extremists here. I am not confused at all and I talk about these issues with a lot of muslims in real life.

Also I wont give up (People) from that region, but they have to become more secular first, at least with the way they deal with other people. Most muslims have deep hatred of non muslims, Pakistan as a country was founded on hatred of hindus, you expect me to defend that you idiot? If muslims themselves are willing to open themselves up to new Ideas, if they are willing to work with other people, I would be the first one to help them, however 90% of current generation muslims are not open to anything, they are very backwards, like I said, only the future generation will offer hope to change them

[Karachi]

....You're a human wannabe .... but it just so happens your model of what you deem as "being human" represents someone emulating cultural ideologues of Westerners.

which is very telling, it implies that you internalize this notion that people who don't adopt Western standards are somehow less than human

This reeks all sorts of House Slave mentality all over it.

Being secular is not western you idiot, some of the earliest muslim scientists were open minded and secular, this is why in the early days of Islam, muslims were doing good. Do you think Mullahs were the reason for muslim advancement back then? lol think again.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Being secular is not western you idiot, some of the earliest muslim scientists were open minded and secular, this is why in the early days of Islam, muslims were doing good. Do you think Mullahs were the reason for muslim advancement back then? lol think again.

Sure secular does not automatically denote Western, but IN MOST cases, especially in the MODERN it is and more over you represent a very characteristically Western Liberalist brand of secularism. By the way I don't agree with your claim regarding scholars of the past being secular, but that's neither here nor there.

There's nothing wrong with being Western I'd like to add, if you notice I'm not making a general statement about the West at large,, but rather Western Liberalism ....and in that case you have egg on your face ....metaphorically speaking.

[Firdousi]

Your're a harami confused moron, first you call yourself secular, yet act as the biggest defender of Islam and muslims even more so then some of the extremists here. I am not confused at all and I talk about these issues with a lot of muslims in real life.

Also I wont give up (People) from that region, but they have to become more secular first, at least with the way they deal with other people. Most muslims have deep hatred of non muslims, Pakistan as a country was founded on hatred of hindus, you expect me to defend that you idiot? If muslims themselves are willing to open themselves up to new Ideas, if they are willing to work with other people, I would be the first one to help them, however 90% of current generation muslims are not open to anything, they are very backwards, like I said, only the future generation will offer hope to change them

You effeminate coward loser: I have never supported secularism in the Islamic world. Muslims are not ready for it. It would more bad than good. Thats why we should stand for moderate Islamic states not Jihadis nor seculars. Vasta majority of Muslims are conservative people so their states must be so too. You would understand this if you werent a fool suffering from inferiority complex.

Pakistan is a terrorist state founded on the basis of hatred toward non Muslims. So is the evil Iranian regime. But most of Islamic countries, despite being extremely corrupt, are not like that. You go to Afghanistan and the average Afghan doesn't hate Westerners. They hate USA but they got a point about it (USA has committed horrendous crimes in our region so its obvious so many people here hate them).

Please, don't talk to me again, effeminate coward. You are disgusting.

[Khostai]

If you asked me this question 2 years ago, I would say yes, but now I would say that it is not possible, wahabist just follow Islam and Quran they do reprecent Islam as it should be, eliminating wahabism is actualy eliminating Islam.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

^^^^^

This remark demonstrates a classic example of someone practically ignorant of Islam. In fact the Wahhabis represent deviation from Islam because they ignore the sciences of the Arabic language and methodology for understanding Qur'an and Sunnah, Islam is a dynamic system, not a static system.

Shaikh Hamza Yusuf explains this ......learn something for once.





And to add something ...There's even references in the Hadith that allude to Movements like Wahhabism as the "Horn of Shaytan"

[Karachi]

You effeminate coward loser: I have never supported secularism in the Islamic world. Muslims are not ready for it. It would more bad than good. Thats why we should stand for moderate Islamic states not Jihadis nor seculars. Vasta majority of Muslims are conservative people so their states must be so too. You would understand this if you werent a fool suffering from inferiority complex.

Pakistan is a terrorist state founded on the basis of hatred toward non Muslims. So is the evil Iranian regime. But most of Islamic countries, despite being extremely corrupt, are not like that. You go to Afghanistan and the average Afghan doesn't hate Westerners. They hate USA but they got a point about it (USA has committed horrendous crimes in our region so its obvious so many people here hate them).

Please, don't talk to me again, effeminate coward. You are disgusting.

Muslims are not ready for it? then why the **** muslims are dying to come to the west? it is you who is doubting muslims, you idiot moron, not me. New Generations of muslims are changing, go to Dubai for example, or even look at the younger Saudis, they are much more open minded, all they need is education and jobs and no religious fanaticism, they will change. The rule of Mullahs is coming to an end, and hopefully soon every jahil mullah would be spat upon by the public, it is only a matter of time, hopefully in the next 50 years or so. Whether you like it or not, secularism will win, it is only natural

[Insight]

Muslims are not ready for it? then why the **** muslims are dying to come to the west? it is you who is doubting muslims, you idiot moron, not me. New Generations of muslims are changing, go to Dubai for example, or even look at the younger Saudis, they are much more open minded, all they need is education and jobs and no religious fanaticism, they will change. The rule of Mullahs is coming to an end, and hopefully soon every jahil mullah would be spat upon by the public, it is only a matter of time, hopefully in the next 50 years or so. Whether you like it or not, secularism will win, it is only natural

Did you paint your skin white for Jennifer yet lol?

[Insight]

Being secular is not western you idiot, some of the earliest muslim scientists were open minded and secular, this is why in the early days of Islam, muslims were doing good. Do you think Mullahs were the reason for muslim advancement back then? lol think again.

Did you change your name to John yet, and did that make Jennifer happy?