Modi to visit Afghanistan on June 4

[Firdousi]

Modi to visit Afghanistan on June 4

PM Narendra Modi's trip will also include Qatar and Mexico and he will return to
Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is set to embark on a five-nation tour starting next week.

Modi is expected to first go to Afghanistan on June 4, where he will visit Herat to inaugurate the Salma Dam which has been funded by India.

Pakistan should stop supporting terrorist groups: Modi

Following his Afghanistan visit, Modi will head to Qatar on June 5 to hold talks with Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al-Thani, where economic ties will be high on the agenda.

The Indian premier is then expected to visit Switzerland on June 6. There, he is to raise the issue of black money stashed in Swiss banks with the country’s authorities – one of the key election promises and part of the BJP manifesto.

The premier will then fly to the United States for a bilateral two-day visit scheduled for June 7. He will be addressing a joint session of the US Congress on June 8.

Nuclearisation of the Indian Ocean region

From the US, he is expected to visit Mexico before returning home on June 10.

[Firdousi]

Thank you India. You are indeed a positive force not only for Afghanistan but for the whole region. Your help and contributions in the reconstruction of Afghanistan will be always praised and appreciated. India has build schools and hospitals, our parliament, has trained our army, paved roads and built key infrastructural projects such as Salma Dam, Chabahar port, TAPI and so on. Unlike Pakistan, India is not supporting nor harboring those who are butchering our people.

Jai Hind and Afghanistan zinde bad.

[Firdousi]

BTW this will increase anxiety in Islamabad. Its hilarious how Pakistanis are all over the internet crying over India success lol

[Porus]

The Chabahar port project could definitely be successful, Iran's got a really bright future ahead of it, Afghanistan does too.

A project like TAPI will be more difficult considering the Pak military's policy on building ties with India. I'd say though, if it does get done... Pak will come close to actually building ties with both neighbours. It's not strictly trade with India, but a pipeline going through our territory to theirs is a big step haha

[Firdousi]

The Chabahar port project could definitely be successful, Iran's got a really bright future ahead of it, Afghanistan does too.

A project like TAPI will be more difficult considering the Pak military's policy on building ties with India. I'd say though, if it does get done... Pak will come close to actually building ties with both neighbours. It's not strictly trade with India, but a pipeline going through our territory to theirs is a big step haha

Indeed. Those are steps in the right direction.

1) Chabahar: historically we have been too dependent on Pakistan. Every time Pakistan wanted, they closed the border to us. Now with Chabahar we will be able to bypass Pakistan. We got even the upper hand: if Pakis get cocky we will close our border to them so they will never access CA and will be 100% sandwiched between Afghanistan, India and Iran.

2) TAPI we can play the same previous game: if Pakis rise their voices, we stop the the pipeline. Since Pakistan is an energetically needed country this would be critical.

3) TUTAP: same than before.

4) Salma Dam: this will help us to supply energy to the whole western provinces. No need to give our money to Turkmenistan and Iran anymore. We will get on our own foots very soon inshallah.

We just need to hold. To resist. Sooner or later our governmental institutions and our growing civil society will become stronger. Once government is stronger we will be able to develop some more serious economical projects. We have minerals, oil, gas and so on. Our country is just in the middle of the region. We have nice carpets, nice saffron, nice dry fruits and fruits. We need to improve our relationship with our neighbors (Pakistan is invited to join but they need to stop sponsoring terrorsim. Otherwise they will become North Korea 2.0). Once economy grows people will start improving their quality of life.

We have a bright future, brother. I am confident.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Indeed. Those are steps in the right direction.

1) Chabahar: historically we have been too dependent on Pakistan. Every time Pakistan wanted, they closed the border to us. Now with Chabahar we will be able to bypass Pakistan. We got even the upper hand: if Pakis get cocky we will close our border to them so they will never access CA and will be 100% sandwiched between Afghanistan, India and Iran.

2) TAPI we can play the same previous game: if Pakis rise their voices, we stop the the pipeline. Since Pakistan is an energetically needed country this would be critical.

3) TUTAP: same than before.

4) Salma Dam: this will help us to supply energy to the whole western provinces. No need to give our money to Turkmenistan and Iran anymore. We will get on our own foots very soon inshallah.

We just need to hold. To resist. Sooner or later our governmental institutions and our growing civil society will become stronger. Once government is stronger we will be able to develop some more serious economical projects. We have minerals, oil, gas and so on. Our country is just in the middle of the region. We have nice carpets, nice saffron, nice dry fruits and fruits. We need to improve our relationship with our neighbors (Pakistan is invited to join but they need to stop sponsoring terrorsim. Otherwise they will become North Korea 2.0). Once economy grows people will start improving their quality of life.

We have a bright future, brother. I am confident.

A very good post.

Let me add some of my own points.

1. Pakistan is almost 200 million in terms of population but a dysfunctional state which cannot even organize a proper census and thus determine how to allocate resources appropriately to its population.

Pakistan has a very high rate of population growth and this is causing strains on Pakistani society.

Karachi is filled to the brim with people and with economic migrants swarming to it every day.

It's said Karachi itself is 60% of the Pakistani economy (perhaps an exaggeration but a huge amount anyway even if it is 30%), if Karachi - Pakistan's current lifeline to the outside world from where goods are transported to Punjab and Islamabad i.e. Punjabi - explodes Pakistan itself faces huge problems if not collapse.

Pashtuns from the north are one community which have inundated Karachi for employment and economic survival.


2. Afghanistan in contrast is not that unstable fundamentally.

3. Afghanistan has a longer history of statehood and nationhood and the average Afghan regardless of ethnicity has a loyalty to his country which precedes loyalty to his ethnic background.

Pakistan however is a volatile state heavily traumatized by one division and humiliation in 1971 and very fearful of a repeat of that.

Aside from the differences between Pashtun, Baloch, Mohajir, Punjabi etc there are even fierce divisions between Punjabis themselves with some Punjabi castes refusing to marry others and certain forms of social apartheid.

We just need to hold. To resist. Sooner or later our governmental institutions and our growing civil society will become stronger. Once government is stronger we will be able to develop some more serious economical projects.

4. The Taliban are never going to regain power and Russia, China, Central Asian states and India will not allow that.

Russia has made it clear they will consider a Syria-style operation in Afghanistan with Kabul's permission if the Taliban were to ever come close to gaining power.

A militant fundamentalist regime in Afghanistan with the potential to spread radicalism to Russia's underbelly in Central Asia is a national security threat to the Russian Federation far more than Wahabist militants in Syria.


5. Every day that goes by with non-Taliban rule is another day that the Taliban movement day as it is yet another day an Afghan girl gets educated, Afghans get connected to the outside world online and the national government gets stronger.

A lot of the participants of this forum tend to be somewhat myopic at times but back when the Ghani v Abdullah Abdullah elections were happening, some even spoke of civil war.

I knew that rather than merely being about a particular figure at the helm it was also a question of the democratic process working smoothly, a peaceful transition to power.

Whoever becomes president only rules for 60 months and that's it.

In the meantime as long as the country's institutions become stronger, the country become stronger.

The Taliban have been defeated in Afghanistan, thus Pakistan has lost its war against Afghanistan.

[MENTION=1498]ComradePashtun[/MENTION]

[Firdousi]

A very good post.

Let me add some of my own points.

1. Pakistan is almost 200 million in terms of population but a dysfunctional state which cannot even organize a proper census and thus determine how to allocate resources appropriately to its population.

Pakistan has a very high rate of population growth and this is causing strains on Pakistani society.

Karachi is filled to the brim with people and with economic migrants swarming to it every day.

It's said Karachi itself is 60% of the Pakistani economy (perhaps an exaggeration but a huge amount anyway even if it is 30%), if Karachi - Pakistan's current lifeline to the outside world from where goods are transported to Punjab and Islamabad i.e. Punjabi - explodes Pakistan itself faces huge problems if not collapse.

Pashtuns from the north are one community which have inundated Karachi for employment and economic survival.


2. Afghanistan in contrast is not that unstable fundamentally.

3. Afghanistan has a longer history of statehood and nationhood and the average Afghan regardless of ethnicity has a loyalty to his country which precedes loyalty to his ethnic background.

Pakistan however is a volatile state heavily traumatized by one division and humiliation in 1971 and very fearful of a repeat of that.

Aside from the differences between Pashtun, Baloch, Mohajir, Punjabi etc there are even fierce divisions between Punjabis themselves with some Punjabi castes refusing to marry others and certain forms of social apartheid.



4. The Taliban are never going to regain power and Russia, China, Central Asian states and India will not allow that.

Russia has made it clear they will consider a Syria-style operation in Afghanistan with Kabul's permission if the Taliban were to ever come close to gaining power.

A militant fundamentalist regime in Afghanistan with the potential to spread radicalism to Russia's underbelly in Central Asia is a national security threat to the Russian Federation far more than Wahabist militants in Syria.


5. Every day that goes by with non-Taliban rule is another day that the Taliban movement day as it is yet another day an Afghan girl gets educated, Afghans get connected to the outside world online and the national government gets stronger.

A lot of the participants of this forum tend to be somewhat myopic at times but back when the Ghani v Abdullah Abdullah elections were happening, some even spoke of civil war.

I knew that rather than merely being about a particular figure at the helm it was also a question of the democratic process working smoothly, a peaceful transition to power.

Whoever becomes president only rules for 60 months and that's it.

In the meantime as long as the country's institutions become stronger, the country become stronger.

The Taliban have been defeated in Afghanistan, thus Pakistan has lost its war against Afghanistan.

[MENTION=1498]ComradePashtun[/MENTION]

Nice points, buddy. But please, can you please elaborate a bit more that you said about Russias intervention in Afghanistan? Did not know about that. Actually i have read that Russia just like iran got some contacts with Talibn in order to keep ISIS at bay.

[Friends of Baloch]

I think Chabahar's importance to Iran is being overrated by Indians. Iran already has Bandar Abbas which is on the North-South Transport Corridor. Iran is more invested in this route to connect itself to Russia, Caucasus and Central Asia than it is interested in developing Chabahar, even though Chabahar is claimed to be better located to handle bigger ships.

Iran also has problems with Kajaki dam and Salma dam in Afghanistan which they blame for drying up of Hamun lake and wetlands in West Balochistan which is a big conflict of interests between the two countries.

The failure of Iran's own project to launch the joint Persian language satellite tv with Tajikistan and Afghanistan several years ago also is good indication that many joint projects might look good on paper but dont meet expectations in reality.

Dont believe Chabahar hype until some results actually materialize. Indians are good talkers but deliver poor quality service while Iranians typically play hardball over contractual issues to squeeze more money and control for themselves or lose interest in such projects which they are not in full control over.

Chabahar agreement is good news for Afghanistan but it is too early to treat the arrangement as some kind of victory. There is about as much to be wary about its failure to materialize than there is to be pleased about its potential.

[Bengal_Tiger]

I think Chabahar's importance to Iran is being overrated by Indians. Iran already has Bandar Abbas which is on the North-South Transport Corridor. Iran is more invested in this route to connect itself to Russia, Caucasus and Central Asia than it is interested in developing Chabahar, even though Chabahar is claimed to be better located to handle bigger ships.

Iran also has problems with Kajaki dam and Salma dam in Afghanistan which they blame for drying up of Hamun lake and wetlands in West Balochistan which is a big conflict of interests between the two countries.

The failure of Iran's own project to launch the joint Persian language satellite tv with Tajikistan and Afghanistan several years ago also is good indication that many joint projects might look good on paper but dont meet expectations in reality.

Dont believe Chabahar hype until some results actually materialize. Indians are good talkers but deliver poor quality service while Iranians typically play hardball over contractual issues to squeeze more money and control for themselves or lose interest in such projects which they are not in full control over.

Chabahar agreement is good news for Afghanistan but it is too early to treat the arrangement as some kind of victory. There is about as much to be wary about its failure to materialize than there is to be pleased about its potential.

Yes, on top of that the Iranians themselves are trying to reach to the Pakistanis over Chabahar, and Gwadar has a direct land connection from the Persian Gulf to the biggest economy in the world (PPP) China.

On a slightly different note neither do I think Pakistan is being "isolated" as much as some may here believe, things such as the killing of Mullah Mansur are not that significant a milestone in the wider context of US-Pakistan relations.

The Pakistani military, which runs Pakistan, is ultimately controlled by America anyway.

However one the positive side, one thing which I will reiterate with confidence is the defeat of Pakistan in Afghanistan, with Afghans winning their war against Pakistan.

Pakistan's war against Afghanistan is done through their Taliban proxies and this group will never regain power.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Nice points, buddy. But please, can you please elaborate a bit more that you said about Russias intervention in Afghanistan? Did not know about that. Actually i have read that Russia just like iran got some contacts with Talibn in order to keep ISIS at bay.

KABUL, Afghanistan — A cargo plane laden with 10,000 AK-47s landed in Kabul on Wednesday, the first part of a major Russian military aid package aimed at helping Kabul contain a resurgent insurgency.



Russia's Ambassador to Kabul Alexander Mantytskiy (left) hands an AK-47 to Afghan National Security Adviser Mohammad Hanif Atmar (center) during a ceremony on Wednesday. Rahmat Gul / AP

The delivery came almost three decades after the Soviet Union pulled out of Afghanistan in humiliation after a 10-year occupation. The anniversary of the withdrawal on February 15 was commemorated as a national holiday across Afghanistan.

The assault rifles — ubiquitous weapons in war-ravaged Afghanistan — are part of a large package of Russian military aid that also includes helicopters and heavy weapons, Afghan National Security Council spokesman Tawab Ghurzang told NBC News...


As U.S. and NATO forces withdraw, Afghanistan has been struggling to crush a growing Taliban insurgency and pockets of ISIS-linked militants. While Russia no longer shares a border with Afghanistan, there are fears that militancy and insecurity will spread to central Asian Republics on its southeastern flank.


Russia Sends 1, AK-47s to Afghanistan - NBC News



Also from last year:

In a disturbing echo of its Syria intervention, Russia is stepping up its military and security involvement in Afghanistan following Nato’s withdrawal and subsequent, dramatic advances by the Taliban and Islamic State....

The Kremlin was also unnerved by the Taliban’s recent, temporary capture of the strategically important city of Kunduz, which was seen as a direct threat to the northern border.


Addressing a Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) summit in Kazakhstan last week, Vladimir Putin said the situation in Afghanistan was “close to critical”. Terrorist groups were gaining more influence and not hiding their plans for further expansion, the Russian president said...



The CIS summit agreed to create a joint border task force following earlier warnings from Tajikistan’s president, Emomali Rahmon, that fighting was going on along more than 60% of the Tajik border with Afghanistan. Moscow has begun sending military reinforcements, including attack helicopters, to its large Tajikistan military base, home to the Russian army’s 201st Motorised Rifle Division.

Moscow has also reportedly agreed to a plea from Abdul Rashid Dostum, the Russian-trainedveteran warlord who is now the first vice-president of Afghanistan, to supply Kabul with helicopter gunships and other heavy weapons. Dostum visited Moscow this month, and also met the Putin ally and Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov in Grozny.

“The Russian side is committed to support Afghanistan in terms of helping its air and military forces,” Dostum’s spokesman, Sultan Faizy, said. “We’re lacking air support, weapons, ammunition. We need a lot of backing and support to fight against terrorism.”


Kadyrov said: “Dostum noted that Isis is trying to make Afghanistan into a bridgehead … In order to prevent this threat, Kabul needs Russia’s support, as in Syria.”

Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, says Moscow has not received a formal request for intervention from Kabul similar to that made by Syria’s president, Bashar al-Assad. Afghan officials are adamant that no such request will be made, but Russian military assistance including weapons sales and the training of Afghan air force pilots has continued, with western knowledge, since Nato’s intervention after 9/11. This now look set to expand.

In other respects, Russia’s motives in Afghanistan echo those of its Syrian intervention more closely. Alarm over the spreading terrorist menace aside, Russia has a strategic interest in tackling instability along its southern flank and shoring up friendly regimes. As in Syria and parts of Iraq, Putin sees a developing power vacuum caused by US disengagement and

western political aversion to military intervention.

Russia's involvement in Afghanistan increasingly echoes Syria campaign | World news | The Guardian

The title of the Guardian article above compared Russia's involvement in Afghanistan to its "Syria campaign".

There are other articles from Tass.ru in English, which I can't locate now but which quote Russian officials subtly alluding to Russian intervention in Afghanistan.

Also if Russia is prepared to send 10,000 soldiers (its current deployment) to Syria which it doesn't even have a border with, what will it do for Afghanistan which is of even more geo-strategic importance?

[Porus]

However one the positive side, one thing which I will reiterate with confidence is the defeat of Pakistan in Afghanistan, with Afghans winning their war against Pakistan.

Pakistan's war against Afghanistan is done through their Taliban proxies and this group will never regain power.

Though I'd rejoice if that happens, I think it's too early to say that. Until Pakistan actually hands over the leaders of Quetta and Peshawar Shoora to Afghanistan, or executes them herself, the problem isn't over. Strategic depth has to be completely aborted in order for the narrative to be changed.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Though I'd rejoice if that happens, I think it's too early to say that. Until Pakistan actually hands over the leaders of Quetta and Peshawar Shoora to Afghanistan, or executes them herself, the problem isn't over. Strategic depth has to be completely aborted in order for the narrative to be changed.

I am not saying the war is over or will be over soon.

What I am saying is that a threshold has been crossed. The Taliban will never win and the democratically elected national government of Afghanistan is here to stay.

A non-Taliban government means economic, social, educational progress however slow which means "de-Talibanization" mentally.

Even the current generation of Taliban now are different to the Taliban of the late 90s, of Mullah Umar and others.

The current Taliban even use facebook, an American "Ferengei", "Kafir" invention.

In addition to facebook not existing in the late 90s here are some other things which didn't exist back then:

- Youtube
- Google (official start date 1996 on year before the Taliban took power but was not the way it is now)
- Whatsapp
- Skype
- Iphone
- Twitter



The 1990s which saw Mullah Umar come to power was a different time, a completely different era. Now Afghans know what the outside world looks like and want to be part of it.

The 1990s had a Russia ruled by a drunkard, Yeltsin, and a not-so strong China. Now Russia is ruled by possibly the greatest statesman and geo-political genius of the last 1/4 a century, Putin and China is hugely more powerful.

The Taliban will never regain power.

It's game over.

[Golden]

A very good post.

Let me add some of my own points.

1. Pakistan is almost 200 million in terms of population but a dysfunctional state which cannot even organize a proper census and thus determine how to allocate resources appropriately to its population.

Pakistan has a very high rate of population growth and this is causing strains on Pakistani society.

Karachi is filled to the brim with people and with economic migrants swarming to it every day.

It's said Karachi itself is 60% of the Pakistani economy (perhaps an exaggeration but a huge amount anyway even if it is 30%), if Karachi - Pakistan's current lifeline to the outside world from where goods are transported to Punjab and Islamabad i.e. Punjabi - explodes Pakistan itself faces huge problems if not collapse.

Pashtuns from the north are one community which have inundated Karachi for employment and economic survival.


2. Afghanistan in contrast is not that unstable fundamentally.

3. Afghanistan has a longer history of statehood and nationhood and the average Afghan regardless of ethnicity has a loyalty to his country which precedes loyalty to his ethnic background.

Pakistan however is a volatile state heavily traumatized by one division and humiliation in 1971 and very fearful of a repeat of that.

Aside from the differences between Pashtun, Baloch, Mohajir, Punjabi etc there are even fierce divisions between Punjabis themselves with some Punjabi castes refusing to marry others and certain forms of social apartheid.



4. The Taliban are never going to regain power and Russia, China, Central Asian states and India will not allow that.

Russia has made it clear they will consider a Syria-style operation in Afghanistan with Kabul's permission if the Taliban were to ever come close to gaining power.

A militant fundamentalist regime in Afghanistan with the potential to spread radicalism to Russia's underbelly in Central Asia is a national security threat to the Russian Federation far more than Wahabist militants in Syria.


5. Every day that goes by with non-Taliban rule is another day that the Taliban movement day as it is yet another day an Afghan girl gets educated, Afghans get connected to the outside world online and the national government gets stronger.

A lot of the participants of this forum tend to be somewhat myopic at times but back when the Ghani v Abdullah Abdullah elections were happening, some even spoke of civil war.

I knew that rather than merely being about a particular figure at the helm it was also a question of the democratic process working smoothly, a peaceful transition to power.

Whoever becomes president only rules for 60 months and that's it.

In the meantime as long as the country's institutions become stronger, the country become stronger.

The Taliban have been defeated in Afghanistan, thus Pakistan has lost its war against Afghanistan.

[MENTION=1498]ComradePashtun[/MENTION]

WTF did I just read, where to start? Karachi 20% of Pak GDP not 60%. This year Pakistan will finally held Census, it's coming even if late.

Pakistan being more unstable then Afghanistan? yeah tell that to MSCI who are about to upgrade Pakistan rating to Emerging Markets. Not even Bangladesh is on emerging markets index.

"ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is closing in on the Morgan Stanley Capital International (MSCI) upgrade with a promotion to the ‘emerging markets’ (EM) index looming around the corner.

The likely development comes on the back of the country’s performance in many aspects and indicators that have fared reasonably well in recent years, reported Financial Times London.

“Terrorism-related deaths have fallen 74% from their 2010 peak, economic growth has accelerated to a solid 4.5%, inflation has fallen sharply to around 3.3% while the fiscal deficit has narrowed markedly to around 4.1% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP),” said the FT report, contributed by Steve Johnson.

Quoting the Renaissance Capital (an emerging market-focused investment bank) Global Chief Economist Charles Robertson, the report said that on a per capita basis the likelihood of being killed by a gun in the US was now higher than that of dying as a result of terrorism in Pakistan.

MSCI index: Pakistan makes strong case for MSCI upgrade, says FT - The Express Tribune

Is anyone here who like to deal with facts? Obviously Pakistan is far from where it should have been ideally speaking but it's not exatcly Afghanistan or Somalia like people want it to be.

One day Afghan MP beg UN to declare Pakistan terrorist state and next day Afghan president beg Pakistan to extend afghan refugees stay in same country.

[Porus]

“Terrorism-related deaths have fallen 74% from their 2010 peak, economic growth has accelerated to a solid 4.5%, inflation has fallen sharply to around 3.3% while the fiscal deficit has narrowed markedly to around 4.1% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP),” said the FT report, contributed by Steve Johnson.

Man. Terrorism may have fallen, but incidents like the Safoora massacre, Bacha Khan University and the Lahore massacre have happened in the past 2 years alone. Decrease in terrorism isn't something to feel arrogant about, it's totally ideal and let's hope for it.

Is anyone here who like to deal with facts? Obviously Pakistan is far from where it should have been ideally speaking but it's not exatcly Afghanistan or Somalia like people want it to be.

Get this out of your head. The whole world is asking you to get of the terrorists that are killing you from within, and here you're saying the world wants us to be Afghanistan. Grow up yaar

One day Afghan MP beg UN to declare Pakistan terrorist state and next day Afghan president beg Pakistan to extend afghan refugees stay in same country.

Afghan refugees are here because their country was destroyed by war, a war which Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United States are guilty of. Let me ask you this, where do the terrorists in the region come from?

I am not saying the war is over or will be over soon.

What I am saying is that a threshold has been crossed. The Taliban will never win and the democratically elected national government of Afghanistan is here to stay.

A non-Taliban government means economic, social, educational progress however slow which means "de-Talibanization" mentally.

Even the current generation of Taliban now are different to the Taliban of the late 90s, of Mullah Umar and others.

The current Taliban even use facebook, an American "Ferengei", "Kafir" invention.

In addition to facebook not existing in the late 90s here are some other things which didn't exist back then:

- Youtube
- Google (official start date 1996 on year before the Taliban took power but was not the way it is now)
- Whatsapp
- Skype
- Iphone
- Twitter



The 1990s which saw Mullah Umar come to power was a different time, a completely different era. Now Afghans know what the outside world looks like and want to be part of it.

The 1990s had a Russia ruled by a drunkard, Yeltsin, and a not-so strong China. Now Russia is ruled by possibly the greatest statesman and geo-political genius of the last 1/4 a century, Putin and China is hugely more powerful.

The Taliban will never regain power.

It's game over.

I seriously hope so man. Even though the Taliban retake of Kunduz occurred, which was so unexpected.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Karachi is indeed 20% of the Pakistani economy, just checked.

60% is perhaps an older figure or an inaccurate one.

The point however is that if Karachi implodes/explodes the rest of the federation is affected, as Karachi is the biggest port.

However I haven't said Pakistan will collapse, I am simply arguing that as with 1971 it is more prone to loss of territory/disintegration than Afghanistan is.

I know Afghans and I know Pakistanis, personally. Afghans are simply more loyal to the concept of Afghanistan, whereas Pakistanis are a heavily divided society. Even the way some of the Punjabi chauvinists here belittle [MENTION=2329]Karachi[/MENTION] for being a "Bhaiya" (a derogatory term for an Indian origin Pakistani) is just a very miniscule example of that.

If anything I have disagreed with others here and said that Pakistan is not going to be dumped by America or in any serious crisis.

The Pakistan army has won in FATA by levelling Waziristan to rubble.

Most Pashtuns in Pakistan are Pakistani nationalists, at least 65-70% if not more.

So Pakistan is in a far stronger position than it was a few years back. However it has failed in Afghanistan and Russia, China, Iran, India, Turkey, the central Asian states will not allow Pakistans sons the Taliban to rule Afghanistan.

So Pakistan has lost in Afghanistan.