Example of What Creates Taliban

[BarakzaiAbdali]

my question to you was, if one of your sibling got up and started beating the other one, and your beaten sibling got up and started choking the first sibling to death, how could you justify a passerby cheering for the one choking the other to death.

This is the rub DZJ, look at the portions of your question I have underlined. This is where the subjectivity factor comes into play and why I keep answering your questions with more questions. So you decided, subjectively, and based on some interactions in life (mind you in a non evidence and ahistorical manner) that there is

A) One kid beating the other
B) The other kid responding with inordinate, somehow worse, and deadly violence

That is, you decided to present B as worse than A perhaps inadvertantly or without even knowing it. I do not doubt your sincerity in believing that scenario B is worse and more aggressive than A, but I do doubt that you grasp the truth of the matter at hand.

My assumption, and it may be baseless, is that in this parable or massalah you gave me, A are (Marxist? Muj Commanders? Militia leaders?) and B are Taliban or the Afghans in the current post 2001 arms of the insurgency. If I am incorrect, then tell me so.

So this is the problem right? You DECIDED that what A did, whoever A is can be equated with beating. Lots of kids get beat up and beat other kids up. Heck, Afghan youth tussle, and siblings grow up horsing around and wrestling etc. Lots of kids also get into fights on the playground. So in your version of events - Kid A is just sorta hanging around doing kid stuff and did a minor nuisance wrong.

This is problematic because you have not even defined what "beating" equates to for us and for me to further this discussion. Whoever A is, what was the equivalent of "beating" that occurred in that era and who did it? This will help this discussion move forward.

you are telling me that because the first one hit the second one, it's okay for the second one to choke the first one to death because he was the one who started.

Here we go again, you decided the FIRST ONE in this situation now did less even than "beat" but simply "hit" the second one and you use aggressive adjectives "choke the first to death" to label the real life actions of the second kid. These two kids personify movements, time periods, actors of some level in your parable/misaal - and I assume I know who the second kid is... but I would like as I said above, to know in your world, experience, mind, biography, who "the first one" is and what actions his you equate to simple "hit" ?

( i wouldn't know whether that is even true or not to begin with because A) i wasn't there when all that begun and B) you have the tendency of being a big fat liar.

The reason why people respected Einstein was that he offered people ways to disprove his theories. He would say "all you have to do is prove the following and I am wrong."

So the ball is in your court... where did I lie? Every assertion I have made has been buttressed with a reference and has a reasonable impact factor and impartiality.

my question was, HOW COULD YOU JUSTIFY A FOREIGNER CHEERING UP FOR ONE OF YOUR BROTHERS TO CHOKE THE OTHER ONE AND YOU WENT ON ABOUT HOW YOUR BEATEN BROTHER WAS INNOCENT WHEN IT ALL HAPPENED, PERIOD.

Incorrect, I said and have said that in the CURRENT situation one party has a larger and more clear moral imperitive based on historical and cross cultural precedent. I have not cheered anyone doing anything thus far. I can however show you thread after thread after thread where when a person defined as an insurgent or an Arab fighter gets killed that countless members here chuckle, laugh, bid good riddance etc.

That is what I define as "cheer." I have seen folks here from both sides of the border say "put these talibs in their graves, kill these zombies, they deserved what they got etc etc etc"

Even when Matiullah was killed a few months ago, I did not cheer, but I posted the news in which an investigative reporter defined what he had done and why his actions had come back to haunt him. If pointing out the errors in the ways of the ANA, ALP, ISAF, and Kabul Installed Government are things that you view as "cheer" then I would say you have a problem with autocracy and do not like to hear things that trouble your worldview or worse, you prefer that your objective be accomplished without any informed discussion of the matter because it paints people you simply do not like in one light and people you decided you liked in a worse one.

if that is not utterly stupid and treacherous, i don't know what is.

I can tell you what is: living an uninformed life and basically attempting to extinguish any attempts at a valid discussion of the matter at hand with fear-mongering and baseless accusations because they dont fit the worldview you decided was the right one on subjective terms. That is treachorous not just for Afghans but for humanity and the progression of intellect.

the bloodshed of innocent afghans in the hands of your so called innocent brother is what has determined your peaceful sleeps.

Wrong again. What determines my sleep is peaceful is that I lived history, studied it, grasped it and understand human reaction and counter reaction paradigms. And with this in tow- I never ever will deny a man or a woman their haqq - but I certainly will ensure to point out endlessly and ceaselessly when they denied another's haqq (whoever they may be) and now bare the responsibility for "butterfly beating her wings" so as to say and causing the ricochet of actions and reactions across this era.

We are going back and forth in this tete-a-tete where your time point zero begins with your reaching a state of consciousness at a point of your choosing - yet you willfully disenfranchize and disregard the very trigger and original sin that not only started the conflageration but the one that fuels it to the point of being white-hot. Perhaps this is why you cannot sleep and I can.

i don't care who started it and what you are making for a living. i want to know how you can sleep so peacefully instead of admitting that there is a problem that needs to be fixed.

I told you, its identifying the actual problem. You refuse to tell me in simple terms what is the problem and what or who is the solution according to you. If I could figure that out, we could discuss what you want me to. For now, I have told you and repeatedly conveyed, based on facts and history and current events, sociological mores, anthropoligical mores-- all well cited-- for your perusal. You decided that they were "lies." Well OK, so thats a nonstarter argument.

why have i never read you talk about what is happening in afghanistan as being sad all together rather than you always talking about every damn thing that a talib does as being someone elses fault.

Once again, incorrect. Look at this thread itself - there is no reaction from the Taliban yet. You decided that it was justifying a Talib action. You decided that a man or a woman or a child shall remain nameless or faceless and voiceless without anyone or anything discussing this serious denial of haqq to a person. Above you talk about fixing problems yet you are maligning the attempt to identify the root cause of the problem so that we can give everyone their haqq. Any Pashtun worth their salt knows the most common phrase we hear is "zama haqq" commonly but rarely "Staa Haqq"- in this situation if you decide some people get their haqq but not others - then fellow discussant you are hardly partial and reasonable or pursuing peace or justice for all.

Every man bears the result of his action. I actually did two things above in the initial posts of this thread - I pointed out that the low resolution tactics of the Talibs may, per the UN, cause more civilian deaths but that the surveys show Afghans on the ground still associate these actions (and even the presence of the Talibs at times) with that of kharij and their local proxies entering areas. This is not debatable, this is fact - pure and simple.

Rather, it is you that decided that every "damn thing" that talib does bares no similarity to past human behavior across the world from Latin America to the Arab States to Africa to Ukraine etc. You decided that somehow one subset of Afghans have to be inhuman and respond to some triggers in ways that are unprecedented not just in Afghanistan but across the world and across time. Its an uneducated way to look at other human beings. I gave the example of how one expects to be treated if they insult someones mother in a gathering... We can debate all we want about what people SHOULD do but we can certainly estimate and predict what they WILL do when prodded.

We have, in our own lifetime countless examples of insurgencies and events that have occurred because one group of people decided that they knew what was best for another. They have similar patterns that are stark and striking. When the doors of war are opened and its forces are unleashed - you can only look at precedent, the parties involved, their reasonings, and decide what the actions and reactions are and assign a moral imperitive based on these evidences. If you do not like this, then I do not know what else to say except that you are acting as the problem instead of searching for a solution - and worse your preference is clothed in the emperor's clothes (they are see through by the way) of a pseudo morality that disenfranchizes one group for the sake of another of your preference.

You do not get it - there is no moralizing either set of actions. When Zik Kandahari, an Afghan translator on the government's tab, was embedded with troops and killed innocent farmers:
http://www.rollingstone.com/feat...special-forces

It was predictable. When you take a 13-15 year old fatherless kid and start him off in a military unit - in a war of occupation and give him treats, rewards, and cash he is going to do what local mercenaries have done since the dawn of history.

And the response that will come from unarmed or less well armed people is also predictable.

The question is, which of these was preventable with some thinking.

Note that I have never argued with the solution that even Badlun has presented as have others that there is an option B or a plan B to dealing with Taliban and it would work. That option is scorched earth and unyielding fire power. Basically the world's super power and her local backers have to be ready to use unrelenting firepower if they decided this is the way to go forward. If a locale or a city permits their presence or has sympathizers one has to flatten the city completely and pretty much decimate everyone in the city to start setting an example. The Civilian population has to then understand that any sympathy for said group will be met with this sort of action - newborns and donkeys alike will be replaced with charred remains. Half measures do not work.

I have been perfectly evidence based and said clearly that this is a viable solution to the problem at hand. However, I notice that people pause for a minute and disregard this - because somewhere deep in there echo chamber is a morality meter that knows there is something wrong with this approach

can you show me an example of a time when you spoke against injustice in afghanistan by detaching yourself from both parties and speaking as a matter of factually??

Once again, its a non sequitur request on your part. Its like saying - so there is a guy named Bob that ventures to Malaysia and starts beating people with cables and rocks but hes got an armed cadre protecting him... the locals get pissed and do predictable things ... now you better say some nice things about Bob because it makes uncomfortable that you are telling the truth of the matter and making sure to discuss the facts and history of the events going on. I am not going to talk about Bob's amazing grandmother or the fact that he patented a device that could cure cancer... its irrelevent to fixing the problem or defining it in the initial.

why do you see their miseries and their misfortunes but have no recognition of the destruction and pain of others caused by them??

Action - reaction paradigms and the light of historical knowledge about how human beings predictable react in predictable ways.

is it because you are insensitive to the pain of others or is it because you simply justify it and are unable to recognize it as a misfortune?? is there a different reason that i have not mentioned??

No, I repeat the reason is clear. In the 1990s before it was en vogue to discuss the miscalculations and the misfortunes by the Taliban once they pacified parts of the countryside, while Abdul Ahad Karzai was having meetings with them, I was amongst the most impartial to say that what the complexity of Islamic jurisprudence was lost on Taliban who governed with a post war reactionary bent that combined some aspects of a war torn culture with a limited worldview. I was not amongst the Afghans that beat their chests and proudly proclaimed while sitting pretty abroad that these were "brave lions" that were bringing justice and Islamic ideologies. I examined the evidence at hand and came to opposite conclusions regarding how practical governance as being subverted for ideological goals and that this would have bad reprecussions.

During that time, I made it clear that the reactions from other groups to the Taliban's take no prisoner approach (Abdul Haq's group) and the continued infighting would lead to problems, disunity, and subsequent mercenaries on the payroll of foreign nations who would feel disenfranchized.

However, this is now 2015 and the conditions post 2001 are obvious to all.

i don't know who this hamida bibi is but if you are referring to hamid karzai then i would like to inform you that i do not need to be praising him in order to justify my dislike of the talibs. why, it's very simple. unlike the types of you, i don't need to pick a side. i call that freedom.

Incorrect, here for instance, you purposefully ignored the article that discussed the atrocities of the Afghans protesting night raids in Maiwand done by the ANA and touted the standard line that it was big bad Pakistan etc etc etc because Razziq and the government "said so.":
http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthr...ghlight=karzai

You talk a big game about justice and peace and fairly pointing out the wrongs done by each side but then, even when you were presented with incontrovertible proof and witness statements that the protest was against NATO night raids and NOT Taliban or Pakistan:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3237241.html

You plugged your ears up and mocked people instead of pursuing the truth.

You basically denied 8 dead Afghans their haqq and their rights and their dignity. You gave lots of dignity to Abdur Razziq when he said:

Kandahar Provincial Police Chief Gen. Abdul Raziq said Taliban insurgents had infiltrated the demonstration.

But decided that this villager deserved no similar impartiality:

Abdul Qayyum, a 45-year-old demonstrator, disputed that, telling The Associated Press by phone that "there were no Taliban among the protesters."

"The local people of Maiwand district are so upset and unhappy with the government and the foreigners because they are conducting night raids on the houses of local people," he said. "With no reason, they are entering local houses and doing whatever they want. We don't want all these things to keep happening to us."

Your mind is hardly free - its subject to the whims of "popular opinion" and what you want to be right instead of being guided by evidence, history, facts, and impartiality.

so yeah, back to the original question: how does your zameer allow you to sleep peacefully while your brothers kill each other and you do absolutely nothing to prevent it?? do you even have one??

I had great sleep last night again. I sleep peacefully because I know that when I weigh on a matter or consider it I have the full weight of history, moral precedent, and evidence bases behind what I say. Unlike you, I will not deny the Afghan people their haqq and their right to have opinions contrary to mine or a way of life that might or might not be my own. You on the other hand have a lot of growing up to do and a lot of life to live and a whole lot to learn.

x

[BarakzaiAbdali]

"wax can not hold feathers too firm near the sun.."
people like you maybe great experts at destruction, you can't built if your own existence depended on it. that is not the question at hand at the moment.

Ah what sweet irony!

Regurgitating literature but NOT grasping its lessons, imbibing its shades of meaning, are problematic. You have to read for comprehension if we want to glean the lessons to apply.

Icarus's flight near the sun and his melted feathers, in the original telling was a commentary on hubris.

And fellow discussant, remember that Daedalus's own hand wrought not just the wings that killed his son who had too much hubris, but he also built the labyrinth into which Minos of Crete threw innocent men, women, and children as prey for the Minotaur.

So this reference undoes your whole ball of yarn (i.e. arguments) like a Gordian knot cut to pieces since your "builders" if the misaal or the parable holds true, are collectively Daedalus, then fellow discussant they are building a thing you ought to be suspicious of

Who is Icarus in our current Misaal? Is it youth and men barely old enough to grow a beard using Korean era weaponry and Lee-Enfield rifles from the era of their grandfathers or is it well armed and well protected men named Stinekzai, and Taj Wardak, and Tooryalai Wesa and Raziq who assumed perpetual support and are "flying dangerously close to the sun." ?

And who is the one turning to Dedalus for help "to build" artifices and other organizations and capabilties (NDS, ALP, etc) that appear purposeful but inflict cruelty and wrong day in and day out in the name of progress?

And ironically, who is Minos?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/ma...anted=all&_r=0

More than a little ironic per your misaal/reference is it not that "Dedalus's" own scribes (Miss Elizabeth Rubin) titled this article?

Karzai's Labyrinth"

Tell me, who is reaping the outcomes of Minos who was a heartless traitor to his fellow Cretians and fed them to the Minotaur... who feeds Afghans into the war machine by choice and who feeds them by circumstance? These are questions you will have to answer for yourself.

I will end too long a statement and a discussion by saying nothing a person does in his life doesnt have a counter-reaction. It is time to be adults.

[DaZahroJaam.]

Exactly. So when I ask you how you manage to so blatantly and shamelessly justify one afghan killing anther one, you don't go in to a five page long rant that begins with you denying ever supporting them and ends with you claiming that doing so is their right (haqq).

I would thank you for proving me right finally but I honestly take no pleasure in your lack of ghairat or compassion for your own people.

Good day.

[DaZahroJaam.]

Bluntly*

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Exactly. So when I ask you how you manage to so blatantly and shamelessly justify one afghan killing anther one, you don't go in to a five page long rant that begins with you denying ever supporting them and ends with you claiming that doing so is their right (haqq).

I see reading complex sentences eludes you as does the proper usage of words. The word Haqq, being a noun in the sentence "...the Afghan people their haqq..." is relative to the Afghan people as a whole --and haqq, being a nuanced complex word implies "their justice." Interesting how you prefer to read into things based on your own bias.

I would thank you for proving me right finally

What a laughable and woefully inconsequential judgement. You've proven next to nothing except that you retain biases that render you the biggest hypocrit here.

but I honestly take no pleasure in your lack of ghairat or compassion for your own people.

Ghair is a rare thing in this world now a days - but your barometer for recognizing it is questionable at best.

Compassion is not fertilized by ignorance of history, facts, reality, or bias - your form of "compassion" involves asphyxiating your own people based on your pseudo intellectual likes, wants, needs, and desires - all subjective.

Good day.

It always is - especially with a good night's rest.

x

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Bluntly*

Attempts at efficiency are not so when they are still incorrect fellow discussant - that merely amounts to still being wrong - but doing it with fewer words.

[DaZahroJaam.]

In case you havn't realized it by now, I stopped reading your posts last night as I refuse to torture myself by reading all that gibberish only to end up with the same opinion of the matter as I did initially. Kindly spare yourself the trouble. There is nothing to be discussed with a mule that is incapable of processing what one is saying and it stuck at the same point no matter what you say to him.
I may just puke at the sight of anything red at this point.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

In case you havn't realized it by now, I stopped reading your posts last night

LOOOOL. I dunno, that forgetfulness thing you are displaying is an early sign of dementia (per the time stamp below) - but I wouldnt expect anything different as 1) aging and 2) nulliparity and 3 ) Passive learning have that effect on the female brain.

as I refuse to torture myself by reading all that gibberish only to end up with the same opinion of the matter as I did initially.

Hahahaha, you provide tons of entertainment though Bibi- saar dhey thash adookaay dhey - so facts, like ultrasound waves do not permeate it and whats trapped inside stays inside it.

Kindly spare yourself the trouble.

Its no trouble at all - Im boarded in General Medicine as well and geriatric related dementia management is tested on the exam so its pro bono work

There is nothing to be discussed with a mule that is incapable of processing what one is saying and it stuck at the same point no matter what you say to him.

Mountains are hard to move since they take eons to build my fellow discussant - your mind on the other hand, in the words of the late great Kurt Kobain is a "magnet tar pit trap" - knowledge dergrading and fatal to common sense and progress.

I may just puke at the sight of anything red at this point.

Thats good since you will likely never need Zofran for morning sickness you can have the vicarious experience through such endeavors.

x

[DaZahroJaam.]

i typed that message at about 10 to 3 pm yesterday. early signs of dementia don't start showing at the age of 20 something and i don't know where you get your talent of diagnosing people's illnesses from across the globe but i think it's time you give up your license and seek to admit yourself to the nearest zoo as your chances of succeeding at being a clown are higher than being a doctor of whatever sort you are.
unlike you, i don't get the constant urge of bragging about my own qualifications but as an individual who has entered this field accidentally and after working with patients that suffer from mental disabilities as well as dementia, i can assure you that having dementia or a mental illness is far better than being a gutless misogynist *******, hiding behind the mask of a medical professional. (by the way, that reads B A S T A R D)

now, if you will excuse me, i have a novel to read.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

i typed that message at about 10 to 3 pm yesterday.

Per below Looks like the disease is escalating LOOOL - the message in which you stated you arent reading anything refers to TWO days ago. Technology alone is smarter than you DZJ- and technology in my hands just turns you into a comedy routine. Admittedly, its like handicap abuse though.

early signs of dementia don't start showing at the age of 20 something

Wrong, there is also early onset pre 65 - also forgetting your age is a bad sign - hence the "something." Don't worry looks were never there in your case, brains were questionably ever there, so for once Alzheimers is doing something nice for humanity.

and i don't know where you get your talent of diagnosing people's illnesses from across the globe but i think it's time you give up your license and seek to admit yourself to the nearest zoo as your chances of succeeding at being a clown are higher than being a doctor of whatever sort you are.

Wit coupled to skill fellow discussant, wit coupled to skill. Clowns can offer high level humor - inadvertant humor that you generate with your woeful ignorance of reality is much much sadder - perhaps best summarized by Smokey Robinson when he sang "Tears of a Clown."

unlike you, i don't get the constant urge of bragging about my own qualifications but as an individual who has entered this field accidentally

No, you didnt enter it accidently. You were one of those hood rats that emanated from a good for nothing gang of "we were persecuted and locked in our basement" types to get refugee status. Your attempts at intellectual discussions and inability to process even 0.05% of the literature you reference or quote is diagnostic of this. Half of the people you quote would be horrified at your atrocious justifications for perpetuating oppression.

and after working with patients that suffer from mental disabilities as well as dementia,

Those are not your patients fellow discussant- they are the invented personalities in your psychiatrically afflicted brain.

i can assure you that having dementia or a mental illness is far better than being a gutless misogynist *******, hiding behind the mask of a medical professional. (by the way, that reads B A S T A R D)

No need to get testy Nurse DZJ, the Doctor, your superior and better, gave you an order - if you have problems executing it, there is the door. And I wouldn't be jealous if I were you, of the mothers of b a s t a r d s only because they have progeny and you dont. Envy doesnt suit you.

now, if you will excuse me, i have a novel to read.

Dont waste your time, you have no ability to generate a panoramic worldview. Just learn to say "would you like fries with that?" because that is about the level of discourse and comprehension that emanates from your arguments.

x

[DaZahroJaam.]

i may not be 65 but i have lived long enough to figure out which parts of an insult hurled at me are true and which parts of it are not. don't raise your blood pressure, buddy. your attempts are futile.
a for effort though?? would that make you feel good about yourself??

[BarakzaiAbdali]

i may not be 65

Physiological and chronological age need not match up. Your "20 something" year old face appears physiologically 65.

but i have lived long enough to figure out which parts of an insult hurled at me are true

All of it.

and which parts of it are not.

None of it

don't raise your blood pressure, buddy.

A combo of mediterranean diet, distance running, resistance weights and good genes ensures that my systolics and diastolics are running nicely.

And quit the attempts at bonding - we are not buddies- I'm too pretty for you.

your attempts are futile.

Hows that Novel, Fortune Cookie? Can I call you that from now on (i.e. Fortune Cookie)? It can be my personal pet name for you since, like a fortune cookie you churn out literature quotations bereft of original meaning or content.

a for effort though??

I heard the GPA now includes an A+, I for sure earned that.

would that make you feel good about yourself??

"I enjoy crushing b a s t a r d s"
- Julian Assange

x

[کیش]

What motivates Talibs and Daeshi's? The rewards that was promised by the all mighty lord.

[HalloIsBack]

so god justify the killing of his creature?
i though in islam only god can judge and take and give a life!

[DaZahroJaam.]

I evaluate my life through my own eyes and though I may not be as wise as one can be, I am quite honest. Therefore, I don't need to borrow your opinion on it. And since it is not going to occur to you, I must remind you that whenever I have challenge your ideology, your overly inflated ego has managed to erupt and you have continued with your insults aimed at your unnecessarily and very much imaginary impressions of my personal life.
When I was younger, it used to bother me and bother me a lot. Luckily, I learned better. You on the other hand will be stuck with this nasty habit of yourself no matter how much else you achieve in life or what amount of years add on to your age.
Isn't it sad that a person who claims to have so much going on for him in life should need to insult others in order to make himself feel better and accomplished??
Since your ego is that starved, how about we give you A+++?? Add more pluses if you must but careful not to choke on your greed there.