What If America Had Never Invaded Afghanistan?[

[khushal]

What a stupid comment. Was it not the savior you are praising that successfully tried to implement the strategy to fight USSR till last Afghan destroying Afghans in the process and leaving the region in a mess the effect of which will last for a long time?

How much by the way has it done compared to the destruction wrought on Afghans?

Would it not do the same should its interests demand? The current overtures to Taleban is a sign of reversion to the old tricks used in 1979.

The current overtures to the Taliban is actually the American public putting pressure on its government to quit the war. People are are finally seeing the manipulation from people like Azmul who wants to continue using US soldiers to do the fighting for him in collusion with defense contractors who make money by spilling afghan blood.

What have people like Azmul and Badlun accomplished in the past 14 years besides destroying the fabric of pashtun society on both sides of the Durand.

[khushal]

The savior's involvement you need to thank PDPA tyranny! The brutality of your comrades PDPA not only legitimatize Jahadist(See notes) but give the Pakistani strategic importance, and tools to burn Afghanistan. Zai even burn US embassy in Islamabad, and aggressively continued the nuclear program but due to Soviet takeover of Afghanistan all were overlooked. No wonder after PDPA take over the Punjos could not believe their luck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_U....g_in_Islamabad

Note:
1-Ahmad Shah Massod in one of his interview during his Europe trip in 99 admits this fact---before PDPA when he was sent to create upraising in Punjshir, the people chase him and gang—half of which were killed by people and rest run back to Pakistan---after PDPA take over, the people used to bring their sons to join him.
2- Your comrade Suliman Lahiq in one of his interview with Arianna tv states how after PDPA take over rush to meet Khan Abdul Ghafar khan and to his demises Khan Abdul Ghafar khan told him they have turn Afghanistan into battle ground of super powers…which Suliman Lahiq says he did not understood back then but now understand fully.
3-Even Islamist Amirullah Salay admits the fact that Jahdist popularity has more to do with PDPA incompetence and brutality. http://8am.af/pashto/spy-afghanistan-security/

The PDPA existence comes from Daud and Zahir pashtunistan policy by putting Afghanistan on a path of confrontation with Pakistan thereby forcing itself to depend on Soviet Aid and influence. Karzai and Ghani are following the same path as Daud/Zahir. What has changed, nothing. You really think America cares about pashtuns, they care as much as the Soviets did and the Soviets killed 2 million afghans, displaced half the afghan population in Pakistan thereby giving Pakistan Permanent leverage over Afghanistan.

[khushal]

thanks for the informative post, i don't think all of Taliban leader were that degree stubborn as Mullah Omar was. it was the Pakistan intelligence agency biggest failure, unable to stop this war.

The ISI was in collusion with the American invasion. They were telling the Taliban to wage Jihad while at the same time they assisted American forces invade Afghanistan. Mullah Zaeef has detailed accounts in his book about how he told the ISI generals that the front line for Jihad would be Pakistan since it is through that territory American forces would be invading from.

America, the Europeans, nor Russia would never give up someone without evidence. That is why they are masters and they behave like masters and nations like Pakistan and the current Afghanistan as slaves and behaves like a slaves. The illiterate Mullah knew more about sovereignty than Karzai/Ghani whose nation is being bombed by America, Kunar is being bombed by Pakistan, and Iran is taking all the Water they want for free because the brave leaders Karzai/Ghani are being paid by them. Are they working for the interests of the Afghan People or the interests of other nations that pays them:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11618969

[Badlun]

What a stupid comment. Was it not the savior you are praising that successfully tried to implement the strategy to fight USSR till last Afghan destroying Afghans in the process and leaving the region in a mess the effect of which will last for a long time?

How much by the way has it done compared to the destruction wrought on Afghans?

Would it not do the same should its interests demand? The current overtures to Taliban is a sign of reversion to the old tricks used in 1979.

USSR and their Communism as well as Taliban with their Islamism are both enemies of Pashtuns and humanity. This is USA who defeated USSR and today's Taliban. This is why they are saviors of Afghans and Pashtuns.

The ideal case would be that Pashtuns could defeat USSR and Taliban by themselves, but it could not be as we are still in stone era, thus we were helped by friends and we must be thankful to them.

No mosquito, no malaria. No USSR/Taliban, no foreigners. Simple is that.

[Badlun]

The current overtures to the Taliban is actually the American public putting pressure on its government to quit the war. People are are finally seeing the manipulation from people like Azmul who wants to continue using US soldiers to do the fighting for him in collusion with defense contractors who make money by spilling afghan blood.

What have people like Azmul and Badlun accomplished in the past 14 years besides destroying the fabric of pashtun society on both sides of the Durand.

We want USA because we alone cannot fight these thugs. We want our friends make us that much strong that we do not come once again under the rule of these scoundrels. If you guarantee an Afghanistan without Taliban, tomorrow I will shout GO USA.

The fabric of Pashtun society has been destroyed by Mullahs who are against Pashtunwali, Pashtun music, pashtun dance, pashtun hujra, Pashtun jerga, Pashtun customs and traditions. Before 1979, Mullah was restricted to mosque and Pashtun society was vibrant, today Mullah control both mosque and Hujra.

[Toramana]

The current overtures to the Taliban is actually the American public putting pressure on its government to quit the war. People are are finally seeing the manipulation from people like Azmul who wants to continue using US soldiers to do the fighting for him in collusion with defense contractors who make money by spilling afghan blood.

What have people like Azmul and Badlun accomplished in the past 14 years besides destroying the fabric of pashtun society on both sides of the Durand.

There can nothing more hypo critic to the extent of being moronic than what you say above. And Khushal you would not spare even a single opportunity to justify the acts of your Takfiri brothers whether Taleban or ISIS and to present their existence and power as self-sustained without a backing from other powers.

I have left no doubt in mind that you are disguising Wahabi Takfiri inclinations behind the moderate pretensions.

[Toramana]

The savior's involvement you need to thank PDPA tyranny! The brutality of your comrades PDPA not only legitimatize Jahadist(See notes) but give the Pakistani strategic importance, and tools to burn Afghanistan. Zai even burn US embassy in Islamabad, and aggressively continued the nuclear program but due to Soviet takeover of Afghanistan all were overlooked. No wonder after PDPA take over the Punjos could not believe their luck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_U....g_in_Islamabad

Note:
1-Ahmad Shah Massod in one of his interview during his Europe trip in 99 admits this fact---before PDPA when he was sent to create upraising in Punjshir, the people chase him and gang—half of which were killed by people and rest run back to Pakistan---after PDPA take over, the people used to bring their sons to join him.
2- Your comrade Suliman Lahiq in one of his interview with Arianna tv states how after PDPA take over rush to meet Khan Abdul Ghafar khan and to his demises Khan Abdul Ghafar khan told him they have turn Afghanistan into battle ground of super powers…which Suliman Lahiq says he did not understood back then but now understand fully.
3-Even Islamist Amirullah Salay admits the fact that Jahdist popularity has more to do with PDPA incompetence and brutality. http://8am.af/pashto/spy-afghanistan-security/

No that is absolute nonsense. PDPA were sincere people that wanted to change the lot of their country men and society who had been left in the black hole of time like fossilized creatures due to the policies of that despicable monarchy and the feudal culture brewing under its patronage that were dragging feet on reforms.

And what did your heroes and saviors did? I mean the so-called Mujahideen and their successors and their international patrons and backers. The savages destroyed every single sign of culture whereas their morally bankrupt dehumanized international backers watched and rejoiced over the efficacy of their strategy to defeat their foe through proxies.

And are you not committing the same sin you are blaming the PDPA for by advocating to be a client of foreign interests?

[Toramana]

Both USSR and the present Russia and China were powers for positive impact in the world. There is no denying the fact that they also used oppression and have some harmful policies of their own but their overall influence in the world has been benign. Look at Central Asia and East Europe, how the native identities, languages, and the right to self-rule was respected.

Today Tajaks, Uzbaks, Kazaks, and a variety of other people in Russian federation and East Europe, Caucuses have their own states and autonomous regions. These indigenous people were not told that because they are tribal or have less-developed societies so they don't deserve statehood or autonomy or the right to use their languages.

What did the so-called free-world do? Dividing people, robbing them of their lands, treating whole people like cattle (the poor Kashmiris were sold for a few million rupees to one person that later became the Maharaja of Kashmir), exterminating whole groups, imposing slavery etc. etc.

The rise of China has a benign influence on the world especially the neighboring countries and societies who have benefited from the economic development of China without have to submit to Chinese political control and hegemony.

[Badlun]

Both USSR and the present Russia and China were powers for positive impact in the world. There is no denying the fact that they also used oppression and have some harmful policies of their own but their overall influence in the world has been benign. Look at Central Asia and East Europe, how the native identities, languages, and the right to self-rule was respected.

Today Tajaks, Uzbaks, Kazaks, and a variety of other people in Russian federation and East Europe, Caucuses have their own states and autonomous regions. These indigenous people were not told that because they are tribal or have less-developed societies so they don't deserve statehood or autonomy or the right to use their languages.

What did the so-called free-world do? Dividing people, robbing them of their lands, treating whole people like cattle (the poor Kashmiris were sold for a few million rupees to one person that later became the Maharaja of Kashmir), exterminating whole groups, imposing slavery etc. etc.

The rise of China has a benign influence on the world especially the neighboring countries and societies who have benefited from the economic development of China without have to submit to Chinese political control and hegemony.

These East European and other states got their liberty from USSR when their mother USSR died at the hands of USA. China is one party dictatorship with no democracy and human rights. How can one ignore the great Western civikization and admire the blood thorsty communism. This is the zenith of arrogance and ignorance.

[Badlun]

Compare former USSR , Arab Islamists of Mecca and Madina and USA. USA did not occupy a single inch of foreign land while commuinists and Arabs occupied countries and continents.

Compare what USA stands for , democracy, human rights, freedoms, prosperoty, happiness and what Arabs and Communists stand for, bloodshed, dictatorship, no opposition, one party, vile totaliterian hallucinatory ideology, blind folowing, hero worship, fantasies,fascism, paranoia and inhumanity.

I am astonished why you praise communism but denounce Islamism. Both share many things. You are like Iran who calls USA shaitan, the devil but Russia, the killer of thousands of Muslims is their good friend.

[khushal]

There can nothing more hypo critic to the extent of being moronic than what you say above. And Khushal you would not spare even a single opportunity to justify the acts of your Takfiri brothers whether Taleban or ISIS and to present their existence and power as self-sustained without a backing from other powers.

I have left no doubt in mind that you are disguising Wahabi Takfiri inclinations behind the moderate pretensions.

You are confusing me with Shamlawar with the Wahabi comment. I like to explain the the reaction to bad policy. While I do not like movements like the Taliban, it would be intellectually dishonest to blame the mess we have in Afghanistan on them since they inherited the mess. They did not create it.

One can not define things black and white. One has to look at this how the common afghan on the ground sees the conflict. There is no difference between Soviet intervention and American intervention as far as how Afghans see it. People are rising up against them not because Hekmatyar(Soviet conflict) or Omar(American conflict) orders them, but for the same reason they rose against the Brits. They don't see this as some noble foreigner teaching them how to live, they see this as Kuffar trying to rule over them. Whether thats true or not, it does not matter, but the fact is that is their perception.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904103404576556531604340742

Americans are tired of the Afghan war. Badlun and Azmul couldn't keep the propaganda alive forever.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/afghanistan-most-unpopular-war-ever/

[khushal]

These East European and other states got their liberty from USSR when their mother USSR died at the hands of USA. China is one party dictatorship with no democracy and human rights. How can one ignore the great Western civikization and admire the blood thorsty communism. This is the zenith of arrogance and ignorance.

You are the most ignorant poster on the Forum. Complete stupidity that lacks knowledge of any kind and it shows you have no education or very little after high school.

http://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/2gpfmp/polls_show_eastern_europeans_miss_communism/

The sudden collapse of the Soviet Union was devastating for the people of Eastern Europe. They should have done what the Chinese are doing today and introduced reforms slowly and prepare the people for those reforms by first educating them and letting them adapt to reforms.
The way they did it created an environment where thugs and corruption would prosper.

http://www.economist.com/node/18560605

[Badlun]

You are the most ignorant poster on the Forum. Complete stupidity that lacks knowledge of any kind and it shows you have no education or very little after high school.

http://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/2gpfmp/polls_show_eastern_europeans_miss_communism/

The sudden collapse of the Soviet Union was devastating for the people of Eastern Europe. They should have done what the Chinese are doing today and introduced reforms slowly and prepare the people for those reforms by first educating them and letting them adapt to reforms.
The way they did it created an environment where thugs and corruption would prosper.
http://www.economist.com/node/18560605

Compare East Germany of that time and today's East Germany as part of Germany. Remember the joy when Berlin wall was destroyed. Look how Ukraine is desperate to join EU. Compare today;s Poland with that Poland which was part of USSR.

China is surviving on capitalism in economy but very soon they will have to change the one party [political dictatorship.

[gadoonwal]

What did the US do for poor afghans? The US brought hope to poor afghans., the other day i was talking to one of our farmer son in Kandahar, during Taliban rule he used work in brick making factory in Pakistan—12 years old kid making brick for porkis while getting paid 100 rupee a day, now he has finished school and want to either enter a privt university or wish to come to US for education, compare the same to Taliban time. I remember this kids father used to drive to Quetta just to make a call to us.
As for as peace, the US is not responsible for peace in Afghanistan, it’s the work of our own, as long as Pakistan and Iran are using religion to make afghan destroys their own country there will be no peace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

ok,if thats the case then the US should stay in afghanistan for forever.
Everyone has its own view.
Religious and secterains problems are everywhere in the M/E and as far as afghanistan and pakistan.
The saudis,iranians and pakistan are busy in this game.
US till this day need terrorists .
The question is still the same did the US brought peace here?
no
If pakistan is supporting terrorists then why US funding and arming master of terror pakistan?
Do,nt they know ,,isi,,training and funding terrorists?
If saudis are supporting extremists then why the US enjoy great relation with saudis?



How can afghan bring peace into the country when they have no good weapons,funds etc?
The US spending billions on this so called war on terror right so think about it if they spend that money on afghan army,roads,new routs and supporting afghan industries.

Dose it make sense to shower bombs on civiliains to chase an enemy of carrying ak 47 and rocket launchers?

Dose it make sense to bomb the civilains of waziristan for supporting terrorists(THE CIVILAINS ARE VICTIMS) and not bombing the training camps in southren punjab?
Can they bomb GHQ?
Can they bomb ,,isi,,HQ?

[gadoonwal]

can the US stop the flow of dollars to pakistan for supporting terrorists?
why every westren country support pakistan?
do,nt they know what game pakistan playing?



They are not stuped but this is settled game .
Terrorists are the assets of US and pakistan.