Hamid Karzai: Hypocrite and Murderer

[Al-Afghani]

Karzai fomented and created the environment and then he cries about it (including the night raids).

I strongly disagree. NATO invaded Afghanistan because Mullah Omar would not extradite his father-in-law, Osama Bin Laden. For a person who lectures about cause and effect, you seem to ignore this simple fact. Karzai didn't invite them, it was Pashtunwali: protect guests even though they are global terrorists.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I strongly disagree. NATO invaded Afghanistan because Mullah Omar would not extradite his father-in-law, Osama Bin Laden. For a person who lectures about cause and effect, you seem to ignore this simple fact. Karzai didn't invite them, it was Pashtunwali: protect guests even though they are global terrorists.

Once again, severely incorrect regarding action-reaction paradigms. The CIA head of Alec Station wrote a whole book on what motivated said party. The fact of the matter is that said party landed in Afghanistan in the initial at the invitation of Sayyaf.

How they got there is a lengthy story but goes back to his long running conflict with with the US since Gulf War 1 and then their luke-warm but pressing pursuit of said party into the Sudan.

This was all triggered to happen when they deposed Mossadegh in the 50's and then a few decades later their henchman the Shah was deposed by the Iranian revolutionaries. Saddam was idiotic enough to be their hammer against the Shiite Anvil which resulted in a huge loss to both shiites and sunnis and weakned a semi strong sunni state. Saddam was then, per the wikileaks release of the Glaspie memo, coaxed into invading Kuwait which then in turn was used as a pretext to place troops in the holiest lands of Islam (Wolfowitz acknowledged as much).

The same tit that fed milk to nurture the above events was the same tit that fed milk to Karzai and propped him up and placed him on the takhth.

Its more than a little ridiculous to use such lines of logic since for a few decades now the two polar powers have been using that region as a chess board with catastrophic and debilitating effects for the denizens there.

In essence, Twas the US that turned the Afghan Russian War into a much hotter war and it was the NATO powers that set up one of the most instigation ridden events in Islamic history (using the Saudi Kingdom to establish bases) that would bring said party to Afghan lands in the first place.

Karzai then proceeded to facilitate this clown show of a situation instead of pointing the finger back at the West and its policies for creating this monstrosity of a situation in the first place. A real ethical and principled man would have told them squarely that they were responsible for each move on the chessboard and that their own intelligence services had written report after report on impending blow back.

Additionally, the former Ambassador of the Talibs at Yale said that when he was questioned he denied involvement. Could it have been a fabrication or a lie? Surely, but then in that instance, a proper and moral route would have been an arrest by Afghans and a fact finding mission which would ultimately lead back to the conclusion that both parties had committed egregious wrongs and really created a human catastrophe due to these repeated back and forth offenses.

Instead, Karzai chose to enrich himself, run with the narrative, mince words about his role as a "holy warrior" and played the "wronged party" when the Superpower did what super powers do and pursued its own interests in Afghan land.

This is why it was important for them to make sure that these gauntanamo types do not get an open non military trial since such illegal war making abnormal events would violate all sorts of international "legalities" and be seen as instigating a response.

[DSM0305]

You obviously have never been in Afghanistan under Taliban. You think Afghanistan was 'free' under Taliban? People lived in an abandon mud clump(literally). Shi-t in their backyard and those who were lucky enough; had a hole dug ind. No food, no water. Women dying from childbirth along with the child. People dying from the most simplest disease. If you got sick, it was either your local hindu, who will apparently heal you by casting a spell on you or if you were lucky enough to have a few pennies, then going all the way to Pakistan to get treatment. That was of course if the poor sick person survived the long and hard journey. At least we can thank god for the mountains, they provided at least a bit of water to drink, even though it was mixed with mud or other earthly substance. What a dignified life one had back then, right? Handicapped men with no arm and leg, starving women and children with no food or clean water. At least there was entertainment, right? At least if the definition of entertainment is no music, no sport, no game, no toys, no education. Well, at least the boys could go outside to nothingness. The women had to wear a five layer outfit, which covered her from head to toe in five layers, and yes, it was in the Afghanistan's heat. Well, if one somehow survived that, then the car/bus heat would certainly make an end of her. Being pushed in far back with closed windows... to top all that, they couldn't leave until everyone else left. At least we were self reliant, right? well, at least if you don't count the trash Pakistan gave us out of pity... Well, we should be grateful, without that aid; there wouldn't have been any Afghans left today. Well, Mr Taliban weren't watanfrosh, right? At least if you don't count the countless Pakistanis, Arabs, chechens, Uzbecs(from Uzbekistan), Tajiks(from Tajikistan), who all dictated not only our men, but our women and children as well. While Afghans starved, these foreigners feed of from our resources and the aid provided from Pakistan and Arabistan.

I don't see how providing a reason for suicide bombs, give any justification for them... Nor do I see how the actions of hezbe wahdat, could justify the killings of innocent civilian Hazaras, including women and children. The rest of your post is purely propaganda machinery, which I have no time for. If you somehow find some of them 'important' then do clarify which one and I answer them.

[DSM0305]

[MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION]

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You obviously have never been in Afghanistan under Taliban.

Wrong. I went there on 3 medical missions with the last one ending due to imposed sanctions in 1999 which led to the NGO I worked with limiting our work to across the border in Pashtunabad. I have ridden that highway between Chaman and Kandahar countless times and visited many of the villages (including my home village) dotting the country side. I lived with and amongst the people and traded hospitality with them and came to know and understand their plight, desires, concerns, setbacks on a level you could only dream to

You think Afghanistan was 'free' under Taliban?

You are extremely naive. You talk about people watching movies to derive what people of principle do, but you are a person who adheres, rather, to intellectual convenience. I understand far better than you the consequences of the imposed war that devastated everything from irrigation systems to archaic electrical grids. I also know the trajectory of history in other war torn nations and in free nations and understand once again that the Taliban was the effect of people like yourself who "think they know better" and have the right to come up with rather foolish logic of why is in their right to A) enforce their personal likes, wants, needs onto the populace and B) ignore the role of people like yourself and successive Kabul governments in creating the circumstances which would give rise to the Taliban.

You are acting like a war torn destroyed country for which soft handed Hamida Bibi shed neither a tear or a blood drop would suddenly become switzerland after the deaths of millions and after trillions of dollars of destruction. That is a retarded assumption to work with.

People lived in an abandon mud clump(literally). Shi-t in their backyard and those who were lucky enough; had a hole dug ind. No food, no water.

Irrelevant comment after irrelevant comment in an attempt to somehow build a superfluous argument. I traveled to the region in the 80s before the Taliban and after and you are forgetting that there wer people living in mud huts before a single Taliban soldier stepped foot in a Kandahar chowk.

Women dying from childbirth along with the child. People dying from the most simplest disease.

Once again, that went on before them, and is well documented even by the prior British invaders regarding the squalor, poverty, and lack of services even in Zahir Shah's time.

If you got sick, it was either your local hindu, who will apparently heal you by casting a spell on you or if you were lucky enough to have a few pennies, then going all the way to Pakistan to get treatment. That was of course if the poor sick person survived the long and hard journey. At least we can thank god for the mountains, they provided at least a bit of water to drink, even though it was mixed with mud or other earthly substance. What a dignified life one had back then, right?

More useless commentary that is irrelevant.

Handicapped men with no arm and leg, starving women and children with no food or clean water. At least there was entertainment, right? At least if the definition of entertainment is no music, no sport, no game, no toys, no education. Well, at least the boys could go outside to nothingness. The women had to wear a five layer outfit, which covered her from head to toe in five layers, and yes, it was in the Afghanistan's heat. Well, if one somehow survived that, then the car/bus heat would certainly make an end of her. Being pushed in far back with closed windows... to top all that, they couldn't leave until everyone else left. At least we were self reliant, right? well, at least if you don't count the trash Pakistan gave us out of pity... Well, we should be grateful, without that aid; there wouldn't have been any Afghans left today.

Quit your emotional appeal and bring some logic to the table. There is direct evidence even from the Kabul Marxist era dignitaries in writing regarding what Kandahar was like ages before the Taliban. Here is a comment by former government official Saleh Muhammad Zeary:

He (Zeary) paused searching for a modern image to describe the social conservatism that most Pashtuns accept without thinking: 'The Taliban are wild people. The place I was bought up in (Kandahar), long before the Taliban, was a kind of volunteer Taliban society."

He is talking about Kandahar circa 1930s and 1940s

page 73:
and this interview was in 2011.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3hDVs0IhLcwC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=He+paused+searching+for+a+modern+image+to+describe+the+social+conservatism+that+most+Pashtuns+accept+without+thinking:&source=bl&ots=klEjZ6zh5i&sig=5L8NxdGBz_fMQ4tM2bRBoMsj1Y8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5HETVPLbKo6ryAT2oYCoAw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=He%20paused%20searching%20for%20a%20modern%20image%20to%20describe%20the%20social%20conservatism%20that%20most%20Pashtuns%20accept%20without%20thinking%3A&f=false

Well, Mr Taliban weren't watanfrosh, right? At least if you don't count the countless Pakistanis, Arabs, chechens, Uzbecs(from Uzbekistan), Tajiks(from Tajikistan), who all dictated not only our men, but our women and children as well. While Afghans starved, these foreigners feed of from our resources and the aid provided from Pakistan and Arabistan.

Nice try. Every member of the shura in Kandahar was an Afghan and belonged to a local Afghan tribe. This is typical Najibo-Karzai rhetoric to attempt to make it seem as if Saudi Arabia had a whole fleet and squadron of 10,000 in Afghanistan. You want to talk about foreigners feeding off your resources then talk about the contractors who get the bids and who build horrible and pre dilapidated structures that fail due to poor building materials and engineering design. You have nearly 70 nations now ripping off the Afghan people and the respective taxpayers of their nations on orders of the millions relative to what some Chechyan stole or ate. So quit your whining and look at your own stupid strategy now.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/17/us-shells-out-millions-bum-construction-afghanista/?page=all

Title?

US Shells out Millions for Bum Construction

I don't see how providing a reason for suicide bombs, give any justification for them...

As I stated before, there is no need to justify them just as the US has no need to justify the drone. Both are war maneuvers and are artifacts and side effects of what war means and does. Its idiotic to tell a super power to not use a manless, low risk, projectile launching, light weight, low fuel consuming, high flying device in facing its enemy. In the same vein, there is no need to justify an artifact of assymetric war that is a tactic that has arisen solely in response to it. Justifying that tactic or not justifying it is like trying to justify the use of a guns by the British against a group of tribesmen with spears - its stupid to even initiate a discussion.

Nor do I see how the actions of hezbe wahdat, could justify the killings of innocent civilian Hazaras, including women and children. The rest of your post is purely propaganda machinery, which I have no time for.

No no, tell the truth, what you have no time is the fact that I cited multiple

1) high impactor factor
2) well referenced
3) very detailed

sources that describe in dollar and monetary detail why your prior arguments about advances, construction, economics are all garbage arguments without much of a foundation.

The blanket term propaganda is basically you conceding that you cannot answer those articles with disconcerting statements even by well placed Afghan officials.

This attempt to claim propaganda is the classic Afghan emigre technocrat move to try and avoid having to answer for the realities and having to deal with proof. It merely makes your arguments rely more on emotion and fruitless for all other readers.


If you somehow find some of them 'important' then do clarify which one and I answer them.

Answer all the evidence based links with counter evidence. Basically, put up or shut up is what they say here in the West. Or as we say "Par isbaat rasoolaay sha."

In essence all your weak rejoinders above merely prove my point that Karzai is just another manifestation of history repeating itself with an "Afghan" leader (emphasis on the quote unquote) who is far below the par in terms of leadership, honesty, integrity, and capabilities. His approach has basically ignored the prior devastating history and he has resurrected the failed "strategic balancing approach" of prior leaders that is going to lead to another horrible outcome and more misery for our people or worse, create a mirror state to Pakistan next door to Pakistan

[khushal]

I strongly disagree. NATO invaded Afghanistan because Mullah Omar would not extradite his father-in-law, Osama Bin Laden. For a person who lectures about cause and effect, you seem to ignore this simple fact. Karzai didn't invite them, it was Pashtunwali: protect guests even though they are global terrorists.

Your confused you dumb farsiwan. "Sayma" is due process, every person has the right to due process. The Taliban were asking for evidence of the crime. The US soldier Marcus Lutrell was given the same due process. It exists to prevent lynching.

By the way your leader Rabani was the one who gave Osama clearance to enter Afghanistan. He was there before the Taliban took over.

[Al-Afghani]

Your confused you dumb farsiwan. "Sayma" is due process, every person has the right to due process. The Taliban were asking for evidence of the crime. The US soldier Marcus Lutrell was given the same due process. It exists to prevent lynching.

By the way your leader Rabani was the one who gave Osama clearance to enter Afghanistan. He was there before the Taliban took over.

It's irrelevant how Osama bin Laden arrived in Afghanistan. He could have used a space ship for that matter.

It was ultimately the Taliban regime who refused to extradite him. If only Mullah Omar listened to his handlers, Musharraf and the Saudi intelligence chief.

Turki: I had come to pressure him to go ahead with the extradition, and I encountered a completely transformed Omar. He was extremely nervous, perspired, and even screamed at me. He denied that he had promised us he would extradite bin Laden, and wanted nothing to do with a joint committee. He wanted to know what had possessed us to want to arrest such an illustrious holy warrior as Osama bin Laden! And why we didn't prefer to free the world of the infidels! He was furious. I could not help but think that we might have been taking drugs. When he continued to insult Saudi Arabia and the royal family, I ended the meeting. I recommended that my government freeze its relations with the Taliban, and that's exactly what happened.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/spiegel-interview-and-then-mullah-omar-screamed-at-me-a-289592.html

But instead, Omar thought an Arab terrorist was more important than the tens of thousands of Pashtuns who died in the past 13 years.

[khushal]

It's irrelevant how Osama bin Laden arrived in Afghanistan. He could have used a space ship for that matter.

It was ultimately the Taliban regime who refused to extradite him. If only Mullah Omar listened to his handlers, Musharraf and the Saudi intelligence chief.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-289592.html

But instead, Omar thought an Arab terrorist was more important than the tens of thousands of Pashtuns who died in the past 13 years.

Your contradicting yourself, all that proves is that the Taliban were not puppets of the Saudis or the Pakistanis as you have claimed multiple times, instead it proves that they were loyal to the principle of due process.

[DSM0305]

Wrong. I went there on 3 medical missions with the last one ending due to imposed sanctions in 1999 which led to the NGO I worked with limiting our work to across the border in Pashtunabad. I have ridden that highway between Chaman and Kandahar countless times and visited many of the villages (including my home village) dotting the country side. I lived with and amongst the people and traded hospitality with them and came to know and understand their plight, desires, concerns, setbacks on a level you could only dream to

So you didn't even live there. Typical from a western born guy. You live in luxury, yet want famine toward poor people. Live in Afghanistan and I will agree with your barbaric views, then I will know you're not a hypocrite.

You are extremely naive. You talk about people watching movies to derive what people of principle do, but you are a person who adheres, rather, to intellectual convenience. I understand far better than you the consequences of the imposed war that devastated everything from irrigation systems to archaic electrical grids. I also know the trajectory of history in other war torn nations and in free nations and understand once again that the Taliban was the effect of people like yourself who "think they know better" and have the right to come up with rather foolish logic of why is in their right to A) enforce their personal likes, wants, needs onto the populace and B) ignore the role of people like yourself and successive Kabul governments in creating the circumstances which would give rise to the Taliban.

Again with that circumstance nonsense. According to your biased view, Taliban is apparently a creation of 'circumstances', but everything else in the world isn't effected by so called 'circumstances'. You, yourself is admitting that Taliban is nothing but beast who follows instincts. While everyone else is intellectual greater beings, who can defy circumstances and have to act accordingly for the sake of the primitive creature

And when in the hell did anyone impose anything upon anyone... The government is there to ensure political relations with foreign countries. The same it is with all other countries. It have never said to anyone to move from one spot to another or imposed a certain ideology on anyone. Taliban aren't marked in their forehead, so there is no way one can know who is Taliban and who is not. The soldiers are simply guarding their post. If anyone is shooting at them, they shot back. Everyone and anyone is free to live their lives as they want. How is it the governments fault for shooting back at someone in self defense. It is the other hand Taliban who want to impose their law and brutality on other people.

You are acting like a war torn destroyed country for which soft handed Hamida Bibi shed neither a tear or a blood drop would suddenly become switzerland after the deaths of millions and after trillions of dollars of destruction. That is a retarded assumption to work with.

Karzai lost his family members for this forsaken country. He did everything he could to hold his country together, while the likes of you live in the west and want to impose famine and war toward the Afghans. You, yourself just said, Afghanistan wont become Switzerland, so why the hell are you complaining about the government for...

Irrelevant comment after irrelevant comment in an attempt to somehow build a superfluous argument. I traveled to the region in the 80s before the Taliban and after and you are forgetting that there wer people living in mud huts before a single Taliban soldier stepped foot in a Kandahar chowk.

Back in the days, there were ordinary houses, but the material weren't made of bricks. In the Taliban era, even the brick houses that were made in pre era, was unrepairable. Today you will see houses that even western people could only dream of.

Once again, that went on before them, and is well documented even by the prior British invaders regarding the squalor, poverty, and lack of services even in Zahir Shah's time.

Afghanistan has always been a poor country, but it has never been in all time low as in Taliban era. Maybe you can go around and fool your western colleagues, but don't go around think those empty words can fool anyone who actually been there.

More useless commentary that is irrelevant.

Because you cant handle the truth and then trying to avoid the hard realities.

Nice try. Every member of the shura in Kandahar was an Afghan and belonged to a local Afghan tribe. This is typical Najibo-Karzai rhetoric to attempt to make it seem as if Saudi Arabia had a whole fleet and squadron of 10,000 in Afghanistan. You want to talk about foreigners feeding off your resources then talk about the contractors who get the bids and who build horrible and pre dilapidated structures that fail due to poor building materials and engineering design. You have nearly 70 nations now ripping off the Afghan people and the respective taxpayers of their nations on orders of the millions relative to what some Chechyan stole or ate. So quit your whining and look at your own stupid strategy now.

Everyone in the current Afghan government is an Afghan as well. So why the hypocrisy about the current Afghan government and the Taliban.

It is non of our business if USA or other countries uses their own money to hire incompetent workers. It doesn't in any way effect the Afghan population or their resources. The reason those workers to begin with can't do their job, is thanks to the Taliban threat. So blame your Taliban for any work not done. While todays foreigners are paid and carried by their own representative countries. In the Taliban era, it was the Afghan people who had to carry the heavy back for the sake of Taliban friends.

As I stated before, there is no need to justify them just as the US has no need to justify the drone. Both are war maneuvers and are artifacts and side effects of what war means and does. Its idiotic to tell a super power to not use a manless, low risk, projectile launching, light weight, low fuel consuming, high flying device in facing its enemy. In the same vein, there is no need to justify an artifact of assymetric war that is a tactic that has arisen solely in response to it. Justifying that tactic or not justifying it is like trying to justify the use of a guns by the British against a group of tribesmen with spears - its stupid to even initiate a discussion.

Neither did the drone or the weapons in the British empire harm their own people. It is the enemy who get harmed. In Taliban case, it is everyone but the enemy who gets harmed.

No no, tell the truth, what you have no time is the fact that I cited multiple

1) high impactor factor
2) well referenced
3) very detailed

Neither is your source 'high impact factor', well referred or detailed. It is biased and very ignorant. You write your comments inside a quote, which means that others cant quote you. That leads to, that I have to use more time on quoting you, than the actual reply.

sources that describe in dollar and monetary detail why your prior arguments about advances, construction, economics are all garbage arguments without much of a foundation.

The Afghan economy is more than 45 billion dollars. Houses are build, the everyday people got richer, the capital city is rebuild, the army is rebuild. There is more jobs, the life expectancy have raised, hospital are build, the education is greater than ever, the media have reached all time high, electricity have been broadly expanded, transportation have become easier and our foreign relation have greatly improved.
How is the improvement even debatable...

The blanket term propaganda is basically you conceding that you cannot answer those articles with disconcerting statements even by well placed Afghan officials.

This attempt to claim propaganda is the classic Afghan emigre technocrat move to try and avoid having to answer for the realities and having to deal with proof. It merely makes your arguments rely more on emotion and fruitless for all other readers.

If that can make you sleep better at night, then you're welcome to believe it.

Answer all the evidence based links with counter evidence. Basically, put up or shut up is what they say here in the West. Or as we say "Par isbaat rasoolaay sha."

Remove your answers from the inside quote, so I don't have to waste my time. I already wasted more than enough time on this reply, thanks to the way you deliberately post inside the quote.

In essence all your weak rejoinders above merely prove my point that Karzai is just another manifestation of history repeating itself with an "Afghan" leader (emphasis on the quote unquote) who is far below the par in terms of leadership, honesty, integrity, and capabilities. His approach has basically ignored the prior devastating history and he has resurrected the failed "strategic balancing approach" of prior leaders that is going to lead to another horrible outcome and more misery for our people or worse, create a mirror state to Pakistan next door to Pakistan

Pakistan is a state with 700 billion+ economy. It haven't had a civil war since its creation(beside the Bangladesh secession).
The only one who brings chaos and destruction to Afghanistan is Taliban.
Karzai did a extremely good job, but sadly no one will recognize his work.

[khushal]

@DSM,
All the misery of afghans you have mentioned have existed before, during and after the Taliban. Read some history pre 96 and post 2001.

[DSM0305]

@DSM,
All the misery of afghans you have mentioned have existed before, during and after the Taliban. Read some history pre 96 and post 2001.

Firstly I have not only read about it, but I have lived there. Taliban did indeed end the horrific civil war, but the misery that I mention were pretty real and terrifying in its own way.

[Al-Afghani]

Your contradicting yourself, all that proves is that the Taliban were not puppets of the Saudis or the Pakistanis as you have claimed multiple times, instead it proves that they were loyal to the principle of due process.

The only time Mullah Omar took an independent decision resulted in regime change. His masters now keep him on on a short leash, luckily for him.

"Due process", more like a ruse to delay the invasion as much as possible. There is nothing in international law that says a global terrorist deserves a fair trial. Above all, it's useless to argue with the only superpower on earth. But being stubborn is a core Pashtun value.

[khushal]

Firstly I have not only read about it, but I have lived there. Taliban did indeed end the horrific civil war, but the misery that I mention were pretty real and terrifying in its own way.

yes but they existed before, during and after.

[khushal]

The only time Mullah Omar took an independent decision resulted in regime change. His masters now keep him on on a short leash, luckily for him.

"Due process", more like a ruse to delay the invasion as much as possible. There is nothing in international law that says a global terrorist deserves a fair trial. Above all, it's useless to argue with the only superpower on earth. But being stubborn is a core Pashtun value.

Your post speaks volume of how retarded you are. A person has to be convicted before sentence is passed.
If party A claims Party B is a global terrorist or criminal. The Burdon of proof is on Party A.
Pashtuns are not stubborn, Pashtuns are loyal to principles that you could only dream of understanding.

[DSM0305]

yes but they existed before, during and after.

I am not going to start explaining everything again. You guys can believe whatever that pleases you, it wont change the reality.