Pakistan's State Sanctioned Discrimination Against Pashtuns

[BarakzaiAbdali]

By the way, Barakzai, are your terrors for Pashtuns or your Al-Qaueda brand Jehadi brethren ?

Wrorraka, Your life and their life are the same to me- And we (both you and I) are one in opposition to this murderous machine killing our people and inflicting injustice irrespective of your differences on what lifestyle choices are more true or more just.

[Friends of Baloch]

Punjabis like Tajiks are wise or clever people thinking of this material world not some fantasies which Pashtuns have in their minds.

Yes we all know how clever and wise these materialistic Bunjabis are. So clever in fact that they have invented new products that can brighten up their dark skin but the only catch is that the end result is a fantasy that works only in their minds.

Ad sparks debate over Pakistan's 'obsession' with fair skin - YouTube

[tripledouble]

Yes we all know how clever and wise these materialistic Bunjabis are. So clever in fact that they have invented new products that can brighten up their dark skin but the only catch is that the end result is a fantasy that works only in their minds.

You're pretty racist for a Brahui-speaking Makrani, most balochis i've seen look no different from Sindhis apart from a few mixed with Pashtuns

[Loy Afghanistan]

You're pretty racist for a Brahui-speaking Makrani, most balochis i've seen look no different from Sindhis apart from a few mixed with Pashtuns

Haramzade!!! You calling him racist? HAAHAHAH GO and lick some "fairness" boot you slave minded sub human!!

Yes we all know how clever and wise these materialistic Bunjabis are. So clever in fact that they have invented new products that can brighten up their dark skin but the only catch is that the end result is a fantasy that works only in their minds.

Ad sparks debate over Pakistan's 'obsession' with fair skin - YouTube

Manana wroora for your post!! I love how we the panj baboons here like bannu mooddar choddar etc who is blinded with their slave mindset about their hindu culture, their cast system etc. In Pashtunistan society, you NEVER EVER see this European-Hindu mindset about white, brown, dark etc. Seems only Porkis, and Iranians waste so much money to wash away their mix raced heritage. Iranians their arabic looks, and porkis their hindu look, too look like someone else, talk about identity crises!

Pashtunistan/Afghanistan ZINDABAD!

[BarakzaiAbdali]

@Barakzai

i dont know why you are upset so much , this condition of second class ship and humiliation is nothing new .

This doesn't mean that when a former high ranking state official makes a comment so openly that smart people should not cease upon and publicize it.

especially if people are concernd about ,that pashtuns should stay in their villages and live their village lifes and should not care about politics ,because politics are dirty and they compromise the "noble savage" and only be concernd about being good muslims ,however in a one way direction .

That is a blatant incorrect assessment of what I have argued in the past. By the same vein one could invert what you have argued and say that you believe that the Pashtun masses do not know what is best for them and that they must be forcibly bought into the 21st century.

Regarding politics - yes Politics is a dirty game my friend. Politics in the failing "democratic" model is what hoodwinks people into following liars and thieves such as Asfandyar, Achakzai, Karzai, and so on and so forth.

The argument I have made, to present it correctly is that morons like Amanullah Shah had NO RIGHT to take tribesmen and threaten them with jail and beatings if they did not wear some faggoty western wear like a top hat and kravate. Morons like Ataturk had no right to murder Anatolians et al for wanting to retain their belief system and their own Turkish culture.

To add to this, fools like "Dr" emphasis on the quotes Najib had no right to brutalize the rural people under the guise of "advancement.

To support that onerous argument is basically to be more in line with the British then the British ever were for it was Kipling who proposed the similar theory of "The White Man's Burden" with a similar thought process about our people.

I have no issue with the desire of rural or other people to advance, but that advancement should be on their terms and at their own discretion without people who think they know more (but actually do not) shoving things down their throat that the barrel end of a gun or a pistol.


you wrote hard lines against assad and you pick very special words for it , mean while you speak very soft about the pakis ?

I have no concern whether I am projected to be a Pakistani agent or an agent of America or Saudi Arabia or what not. Regarding hard lines versus soft, I recall clearly that I said we need not concern ourselves with their internal matters but that Assad (and his father) were rat *******s. I would think that anyone who knows the history of the Assad family leveling a town of 50,000 + (Hama) and blowing bazooka holes through elderly people would understand this.

The problem with the Pakistani discussion here and elsewhere is that it is often conducted in unrealistic terms where any aspect of history is brushed under the rug if it inconveniences the Karzai narrative. The Pakistan canard is just that, a feel good, go to canard to divert all attention and energy from the very real corrupt murderers that are seeking to emulate that pariah state who are sitting high and dry in Kabul.

I for one refuse to accept these non evidence based narratives (where the only evidence is some washed up half bred Marxist sitting in his villa more often when it is presented) that somehow make it so that any and all resistance movements (e.g. the rising sunni against Baghdad) is always some US and British rouse. The reality is very clear and very well documented. These conspiracy laden narratives that depict Putin and Assad as some heroes are nonsense and drivel without an iota of evidence and common sense.


i dont care about punishment in the next world , i want to see their dog blood today !

Once again you are inferring that I do not want to see this. My comment was directed at their tacit supporters here who have little blood on their hands only because of their passivity and susceptibility to jingoistic army driven narratives. For instance, I think that the bast-ards giving orders and shooting at Pashtuns are far far more guilty than any of these guys posting here.

But I would never fault a Pashtun for wanting badal now. I cannot fathom how you could assume that any and all religious commentary means that person is pushing passivity and not understanding why you and other Pashtuns would want badal now. That is actually the right of these people whose family members are being murdered actively by the Pakistani Army.

My friend, just because you assume references to religion are there to lull people to sleep does not mean you are right. Rather, the Muslim who has read his Quran knows clearly that God provides for justice both in this world and the next.

x

[abassinafghan]

my dear doctor

it suprises me that you, who is sitting in the usa and who studied in one of the most prestigious academic institutions in the world but some how you seem to deny reality in a romantic naive way .

its not about islam , its not about marxism ,its not about capitalism , democracism ,facism or forcing people to do something on others , but the mere survival of our people and nation in front of hostile neighbours and enemie states far away and close , and states which use us as their playground for their geopolitical games .

people need an income , they need work , paid work , work of which they can live and not only survive to the next day , and i think you will agree on that , and i think you will also agree that people who doesnt care about this , legitimize their claim of power by saying that they protect islam , just to distract from their incompetence in every regard ,paired with foreign interesst , who will not allow not one single step of betterment and development .

because developing a state ,an economy ,a society , infrastructure , means power or potential .

potential to defend one self , to protect ones interests, people and values .

and i am not talking about abolishing religion , but i talk about paid people who use religion of a pretext and justification for their own agenda .

The argument I have made, to present it correctly is that morons like Amanullah Shah had NO RIGHT to take tribesmen and threaten them with jail and beatings if they did not wear some faggoty western wear like a top hat and kravate. Morons like Ataturk had no right to murder Anatolians et al for wanting to retain their belief system and their own Turkish culture.

have you witnessed this time ? i can show you many pictures of amanullah khan in afghan dress .
and if you mention such things do you have also an unbaised proof and reason for it , or just your own agenda behind it ? because you lack a critical view of the bigger context . besides "kafir kafir ,moron moron " not much is coming from you .

did amanullah khan mistakes in his political decisions probably , was he a moron ? no !

but i ask my self how do imagine , that pashtuns and afghans will survive , between iranians in the west and pakis in the east , who sent their paid slaves over who are using religion as a cover for their own agenda to hold us down , and calling every one a kafir who dont agree with them ?

The problem with the Pakistani discussion here and elsewhere is that it is often conducted in unrealistic terms where any aspect of history is brushed under the rug if it inconveniences the Karzai narrative. The Pakistan canard is just that, a feel good, go to canard to divert all attention and energy from the very real corrupt murderers that are seeking to emulate that pariah state who are sitting high and dry in Kabul.

I for one refuse to accept these non evidence based narratives (where the only evidence is some washed up half bred Marxist sitting in his villa more often when it is presented) that somehow make it so that any and all resistance movements (e.g. the rising sunni against Baghdad) is always some US and British rouse. The reality is very clear and very well documented. These conspiracy laden narratives that depict Putin and Assad as some heroes are nonsense and drivel without an iota of evidence and common sense.

well to talk about evidence in politics or history is quiet difficult , but what is more "moronic " ( to use your words ) , is when people who were not affected personally in no regard talking about things of which they have no idea , because they dont lived in this time or place .

the good thing is , afghanistan is full of people young and old , who lived thru alot of things and have seen alot of misery and they can not be fooled by simple answers stupid "kafir kafir" blame games

and trust , me everyone in kandahar and kabul knows much better about karzai ,mullah omar, ghani and the rest , than you do .

so you are the one who is telling the " poor " afghans ,what they dont know while being born and living a comfortable life in the usa presenting your evidence collected in the internet and sources like news papers and interviews ( and of course they all say the truth ) but still you fail to see the problem .

I have no issue with the desire of rural or other people to advance, but that advancement should be on their terms and at their own discretion without people who think they know more (but actually do not) shoving things down their throat that the barrel end of a gun or a pistol.

its not about forcing people to their luck , but to survive and live in dignity . but i can gurantee you as long people are in power who are either installed by foreigner and cleptocrats or concerned of the length of your beard and your hair , and the very same people are paid by foreigner to do their dirty work , the misery will continue .

but that Assad (and his father) were rat *******s. I would think that anyone who knows the history of the Assad family leveling a town of 50,000 + (Hama) and blowing bazooka holes through elderly people would understand this.

power to him very good , at least he did it for his own power and not american dollars , like the pakis , where no jihad is needed and no one is pilgrimin to pakistan to kill the so called kafirs in islamabad .

[BarakzaiAbdali]

my dear doctor

it suprises me that you, who is sitting in the usa and who studied in one of the most prestigious academic institutions in the world but some how you seem to deny reality in a romantic naive way .

Brother, I dont think its naive to understand human behavior and responses. Look all around the world, when people's lives are threatened they rally around a concept. This is not to say that the concept is good, bad, up, down, left, right etc or that it can be misused or not. In Latin America, Guevara and those folks found their rallying for a just cause around socialist idealism, in the US people run to the call of patriotism, and so on and so forth. Rather, I think its naive to not understand why humans act the way they do and to not capitalize on this instead of opposing it. For example, Ahmad Shah Baba did not just crush his whole people when he started to think about taking on Iran... instead he started to think about the theological implications of having the Caliph accept Jaffarite Shiites as an additional madhab. It is because he understood that A) his own people were viciously anti Persia due to Gurgin and B) that the Persian people he would possibly conquer would put up a huge resistance if their ideas were not considered.... it was too bad he passed away before pursuing that. But my point is he understood human behavior and melded it to his own ends.

its not about islam , its not about marxism ,its not about capitalism , democracism ,facism or forcing people to do something on others , but the mere survival of our people and nation in front of hostile neighbours and enemie states far away and close , and states which use us as their playground for their geopolitical games .

That is true, but in each of these very same nations there are subgroups that are oppressed and that themselves want an end to the geopolitical games. In general, when the state is opposed, as is proven in data set after data set, the language of resistance more often than not takes on the concept of "zama haqq" or my God-given right.

Moreover, these regions were also not separate entities in totality until colonial powers divided them North and South, West and East etc. They were often in the realm of the three more powerful predecessor Muslim powers.

people need an income , they need work , paid work , work of which they can live and not only survive to the next day , and i think you will agree on that , and i think you will also agree that people who doesnt care about this , legitimize their claim of power by saying that they protect islam , just to distract from their incompetence in every regard ,paired with foreign interesst , who will not allow not one single step of betterment and development .

As I said, I think that its is far more complex than that. This was Najib's trait - to assume that every Mullah or Qari was a part of the dogmatic bourgieoisie oppression paradigm. And he then lept forward head first like a fool jumping into an empty concrete swimming pool without seeing if there is water in there first.

They took a model that applied to the Catholic Church and that a few British officers used in the same way that Kharijaan use a few mullahs here and there now even in Afghanistan to get people to not resist NATO... but it is naive to think that A) the mullah is conspiring to legitimize kharijaan and B) that the people have no legitimate attachments to their religion.

Rather, I think it is the reverse, in the Pashtun society I saw in stable areas each person had his place. The mullah did not have that much power except to influence a few people here and there. People instead respect Khanthope more than they did mullahthope.

Just as in any society, when instability happens people run to where they can get comfort or what magnifies their memes for defensive purposes.

because developing a state ,an economy ,a society , infrastructure , means power or potential .

potential to defend one self , to protect ones interests, people and values .

and i am not talking about abolishing religion , but i talk about paid people who use religion of a pretext and justification for their own agenda .

What you say here I 100% agree with, but the flip side is when people try to crush the masses and think that they can forcibly change their people. Do you think AbdurRahman's rule was a success? Do you think Najib's rule was a success? People talk all day and all night about a few militia running mullahs who had nothing to start with and nothing to end with in the 1980s and 90s but how much stability and smarts did these people use when tryign to build their country? Instead of working with their people, they decided their people were too stupid, backwards, or dumb and did the dangerous mistake that a smart human being should not even do with an adolescent and applied brute force and attacked all the things these people viewed as sacrosinct.

And whats more ironic is that these people talked about strong nations, and developed nations and nations free of geopolitics yet on the back side they were the same donkey being ridden by another kharij. The people who praise these people (e.g. "Dr" Najib) forget that "Dr" Najib was not some ethno superman sent by The Divine to save Pashtuns from themselves - he himself was more than willing to accept, permit to permeate, and allow to infiltrate Russians. These are the same Russians that a much smart and much more independent man (Che Guevara) saw right through when he saw his nation was being used for geopolitics by the same Communist *******s halfway around the globe... yet suddenly one group of kharij is better than another? By such a measure then Karzai should be 100% acceptable, but we both know this is not sensical.

All those commodities that you mentioned are important, but nothing is more important than 100% independence.

have you witnessed this time ? i can show you many pictures of amanullah khan in afghan dress .
and if you mention such things do you have also an unbaised proof and reason for it , or just your own agenda behind it

No, I know this from Shinwaryaan who to this day say that grandfathers told them Amanullah admired Ataturk and that he and his father in law called jirgas and demanded the people adhere to things that were foreign to their way and foreign to their women. I have no agenda but just to say that both Ataturk and Amanullah were failures in nearly every measure except nostalgia and false claims that "Afghanistan was on its way to becoming Sweden" in his time. People are not so foolish so as to turn viciously on the same monarch that led them and even galvanized the Wazir across the border against the British for no reason.

Amanullah, unlike Ahmad Shah Baba, according to his own grandson and to Hamid Wahid Alikozai snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory. You cannot just dismiss his major political folly. Go to page 448 and see what his own admirer, Alikuzai has written about him:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-WR...french&f=false

He himself uses that very word "folly." One of his biggest failures was initiating the same mistake Daud would make and the same mistake Karzai is making now, this concept of "strategic balancing" such as to say that a small but difficult to hold/control country like Afghanistan can somehow cleverly play off the geopolitical players in a way that will create a zero sum game. He began to look to where AbdurRahman had looked and started this concept of balancing Russians and British/British offshoots. This is described in great detail by this Afghan Pro Pashtun historian in excellent detail.

When Bolshevik's took control, the historian details how their FIRST goal was to use Amanullah (and not the other way around) to create trouble for the Brits since the Brits were attacking their revolution.

"The Soviet valued Afghanistan only insofar as it was a tool for dealing with Soviet Muslims (15% of the Soviet population) or when Ango-Soviet relations were poor."

And trust me, I have read Amanullah's own family works and I actually think he was in and of himself a good person and as Alikuzai says, he had genuine concern for these 15% Muslims under Bolshevik oppression. I am not discrediting Amanullah as being non-Muslim or anti Muslim.

He goes onto page 452 regarding how Amanullah took power away from the Pashtun tribes when trying to bring the army under boot. He bought in Turkish advisors (who had not even an IOTA of understanding of Pashtuns) to reorganize his military. This was the first step in losing the previous support of the Pashtuns to helped him hit the British hard.

"King Amanullah infuriated the Tribes by changing recruitment methods..."

The author goes on to talk about how INTERNAL and not British opponents made their qualms aware to Amanullah in the Khost Rebellion before even a singal Shinwari lifted his rifle.

So now with all of this that we know, you want to tell me that because some railroad tracks were laid down that Amanullah was some brilliant person? He single-handidly lost sight of slow and gradual processes that change people. He had the most opportune time in Afghan history and squandered it because he was on a Ataturkian high.


? because you lack a critical view of the bigger context . besides "kafir kafir ,moron moron " not much is coming from you .

I never said the word kafir as I am not takfirist. I think powerful words have to be used when the prevailing narrative turns people like Najib into some superhero divine miracle despite his important flaws. People think that Ahmad Shah Baba is some old unimportant figure whose time was so dramatically different than our own but they forget he faced many of the same challenges (competing large empires with their own interests, blood thirsty competitors, etc) and his tact and poise with his own people was better than any of these people - and he did not need a suit, boot, and railroad track to do it. Read Tahrik-e-Ahmad Shah and you can see how a real Pashtun governs according to the sensitives of his people and yet still rules with a strong hand.

did amanullah khan mistakes in his political decisions probably , was he a moron ? no !

You are correct that the adjective is a bit strong. Amanullah was someone who had good intentions, but I think its hard to gloss over how he squandered immense political and temporal capital. The reason he has to be re-evaluated is that Najibists try to portray "Dr" Najib as the modern second coming of Amanullah, their original messiah and basis for all the conspiracy theories that do not assign proper blame in the proper places. On the one hand they mock their opponents as "stuck in the 7th century" and as "idealizing a time of 4 caliphs who had witnessed a lot of blood despite the mythologies" yet they themselves are constructing fantastic myths for these 2 people!

but i ask my self how do imagine , that pashtuns and afghans will survive , between iranians in the west and pakis in the east , who sent their paid slaves over who are using religion as a cover for their own agenda to hold us down , and calling every one a kafir who dont agree with them ?

If you know you are not a Kafir, which I believe you are not, then who cares? As I said before all the evidence shows that human beings go to what comforts them in times of turmoil and invasion. They also go whatever political fabric unites them into something cohesive to stop aggression on their home turf. That same concept can be misused, whether it is religion, patriotism, nationalism etc. A smart person would not try to mock, crush, and oppose that tool or to marginalize it by force, but would instead utilize it for the right since they know they are in the right. They would also couple this to gradual efforts toward change. If someone calls you a kafir, you get the Quran out and show them you know twice as much as they do. I myself had a fight with a village mullah and lived to tell about it, but it was done in the right way. He was sitting there talking about land inheritence and misapplying the ayaats and parceling out the land in a way that favored the more lofty and powerful people. Once the Quran is bought out and other people of understanding are present he had no leg to stand on and was discredited. The other option, I suppose is to go and beat him, flog him, crush his head and then mock his faith, but then that just makes him a hero and is an insult to the people that pray in his masjid who are probably as tired of him.

well to talk about evidence in politics or history is quiet difficult , but what is more "moronic " ( to use your words ) , is when people who were not affected personally in no regard talking about things of which they have no idea , because they dont lived in this time or place .

Our families were and are affected. I had relatives killed in the Najib era and have close refugee relatives in Pashtunabad with no ties to militancy who are rotting in Pakistan's jails who have families and children. So I believe that I do have the right to discuss this.

the good thing is , afghanistan is full of people young and old , who lived thru alot of things and have seen alot of misery and they can not be fooled by simple answers stupid "kafir kafir" blame games

I agree, that is good. Afghans have the right to own their own spirituality and religion and to seek balance and moderation in all things. I bet these same people did not need a brutal Najib to beat and murder their sons to teach them that, but life itself taught them that lesson.

and trust , me everyone in kandahar and kabul knows much better about karzai ,mullah omar, ghani and the rest , than you do .

Some of them may, I have not had dealings with the latter two in any capacity, but the first one I am pretty familiar with unfortunately.

so you are the one who is telling the " poor " afghans ,what they dont know while being born and living a comfortable life in the usa presenting your evidence collected in the internet and sources like news papers and interviews ( and of course they all say the truth ) but still you fail to see the problem .


I am not telling them what they need, that is their right to tell everyone what they need and want. I simply refuse to accept the nationalist narrative that anyone with a religious inclination or that fought in a resistance movement under the banner of religion was an agent of the West or that all resistance movemets across the world that have the word Islam in them are somehow CIA agents in local dress. The real problem is failing to see what unites and divides people and what is really important to the people and how to they express their own autonomy, not how some Ataturkian zealots would prefer them to express themselves. The first ingredient to having jobs and all those things you mentioned, and to sustaining it and defending it is having an autonomous nation. That cannot come from bending over and losing the most important aspects of one's native identity - especially to the false canard or calling the faith that nourishes 1/5 of the world's population as "Arab imperialism."


its not about forcing people to their luck , but to survive and live in dignity . but i can gurantee you as long people are in power who are either installed by foreigner and cleptocrats or concerned of the length of your beard and your hair , and the very same people are paid by foreigner to do their dirty work , the misery will continue .


True, but once again, study the people and how they resist and what language they use to resist. Do they form patriotic clubs and sing and dance attan and hoist socialist banners across the Muslim world then they want to resist? Or do they do what Dhalia Mogahed and Esposito pointed out... take refuge in the political language that has held their societies intact for centuries as opposed to some injected foreign concept? If one ignores their natural tendencies, then one leaves open the door for others to take that natural expression and radicalize it. In summary the process is like this:

Kharij invades or creates problem ---> People galvanize and coalesce around what they are familiar with (often the concept of "zama haqq" in Islam) ---> There is massive assymetry when fighting the kharij with his superior arms and techniques ---> The most zealous survive and they are often the most radical and prone to be far less moderate --> And so on and so forth.

Your construct alleges, without proof this:

Kharij seeks to create problem in the midst of development and advancement ---> Kharij finds some loud mouth lackey with some mild residual knowledge in religion ---> Lackey guilts the population into going backwards and brutality ---> The real honest and hard working people who wanted to advance (e.g. Najib and Amanullah) are trying to squash the lackey but make some honest mistakes that actually give more power to the lackey.

There is really no evidence whatsoever to support that the second construct whereas mountains of evidence and surveys done by natives and others show clearly that the first construct is what has been and is happening. The way to fix that is to speak out against the root cause of the cycle in the first place, which is interventionalism from abroad and the people that often enable this interventionalism instead.

power to him very good , at least he did it for his own power and not american dollars , like the pakis , where no jihad is needed and no one is pilgrimin to pakistan to kill the so called kafirs in islamabad .

Actually he did this with Soviet Power, not on his own and he utilized the Baath platform developed by crypto communist, Michael Aflaq:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Aflaq

Once again, Syrian internal matters are not much my concern, but if the truth has to be spoken then so be it. Basically the current conflict in Syria is the direct result of a generations of suppression of a majority by an esoteric minority.

In the same vein, it is morally contradictory to pat Assad on the back and then to rail and moan about the same exact paradigm in play in Pakistan via the Panjab and its acolytes in KP province and Balochistan who have pretty much accomplished the same thing. Or for that matter to be upset with Shamalaan for their current powerplay.

x

[Shah-i-Kot]

The US withdrawal from Afghanistan is to be completed in 2014 or 2016.

Pakistan will have no US dollars or IMF loans post US exit just like before 2002. Pro-War chicken hawks can now keep crying !