Punjab's treacherous role during the British Raj

[Toramana]

"However, the Punjab stayed loyal to the British until the very end. As the movement for independence was gaining momentum and it was only a matter of time before the British would leave India, the Punjabi nobles maintained their stance against independence. Punjab was governed by the Unionist Party, whose official position was that the British should stay in India. The Unionist Party also made sure that Jinnah and the Muslim league, which advocated for Pakistan, did not gain any ground in the province. In fact, the Muslim League had to take direct action in the Punjab so that it could dislodge the Unionist Party. Driven by the desire to maintain their hold on power, the Punjabi nobles proposed to Indian nationalists such as Nehru to keep India united even if the British leave. They told Nehru that they would be able to rule over India together after the British depart, by the virtue of the strong Punjabi presence in the Indian army. Gandhi, on his part, never campaigned in the Punjab. When asked why, Gandhi would say, “sara sooba CID ka sooba” (the entire province belongs to the British intelligence).

Post-Partition

After independence and the Partition, Nehru made sure to decrease Punjab’s domination in the Indian army. In Pakistan, however, this was not the case. Even though that province was opposed to independence, let alone the creation of Pakistan, it nonetheless found in itself in a position of power in the new country, thanks to the size of its population and its domination in what was now the Pakistani army. When Pakistan aligned itself with the US in the Cold War, Punjab found yet another foreign patron for its army. As it was the case previously, renting out services to foreign powers brought numerous privileges to the native collaborators. The Pakistani army is a reflection of Punjab’s dominance over the rest of Pakistan’s provinces. Preventing progressive movements from taking root was – and is – not only a requirement to maintain the American hegemony in the region, it is also a necessity for Punjab so that it can maintain its hold over Pakistan. For the Punjab, in particular, nationalism of the other provinces was – and is – the biggest threat to its power. The alliance between the US and the Punjabi-dominated Pakistan army, therefore, has been mutually beneficial.

Punjab and Bangladesh

The first major benefit that the Punjab reaped thanks to the American patronage of the Pakistani army was its ability to annihilate East Pakistan. East Pakistan was the country’s biggest province in terms of population, thanks to which it won the elections and had the right to form the majority government. But the Punjab was not ready to handover power to another province, especially to the Bengalis, since Punjabis considered the Bengalis to be racially inferior. The Punjabi-dominated Pakistani army invaded East Pakistan in 1971 and massacred around 4 million Bengalis and raped somewhere between 200,000 to 500,000 Bengali women in the space of less than 2 years.

...
...
...

http://collateraldamagemagazine.net/2014/01/04/the-politics-of-privilege-in-pakistan-punjabs-domination/

[Bengal_Tiger]

1. Punjabi "Muslims" have never had a state of their own in history thus their obsession with Pakistan (a country younger than the Coca Cola company). They have no history except Pakistan.

Pashtuns have the Abdali, Lodhi, Suri, Ghilzai, Karrani and other empires and dynasties.

2. The number of people massacred in Bangladesh is most likely to be between 300-500,000 (the 3 million number is not accurate), still an absolutely horrific bloodbath though and Pakistan has killed more Muslims than Israel.


3. In my personal opinion if/when Pakistan breaks up (insha'Allah), Punjabis will abandon their militarism and concentrate on trade. This is because like many bullies they talk big when powerful but are quiet when weak i.e. when they are in control of Pakistan they will talk with bluster, when they are part of a landlocked state of Punjab that will all go.

[tripledouble]

Punjabiphobia isn't good for you [MENTION=1201]Toramana[/MENTION] [MENTION=1058]Bengal_Tiger[/MENTION]

They're just normal people, trying to get on with life; you should hate the elite who control the governments, it's not really about ethnicity but more about class, and most poor and middle class Punjabis are just normal people.

[Toramana]

1. Punjabi "Muslims" have never had a state of their own in history thus their obsession with Pakistan (a country younger than the Coca Cola company). They have no history except Pakistan.

Pashtuns have the Abdali, Lodhi, Suri, Ghilzai, Karrani and other empires and dynasties.

2. The number of people massacred in Bangladesh is most likely to be between 300-500,000 (the 3 million number is not accurate), still an absolutely horrific bloodbath though and Pakistan has killed more Muslims than Israel.


3. In my personal opinion if/when Pakistan breaks up (insha'Allah), Punjabis will abandon their militarism and concentrate on trade. This is because like many bullies they talk big when powerful but are quiet when weak i.e. when they are in control of Pakistan they will talk with bluster, when they are part of a landlocked state of Punjab that will all go.

Punjab's rise to power has been adventitious and due to subservience to the colonial powers of the West. They didn't achieve it by the dent of their own arm. The British kind of handed down the colony to the Punjabi Army that it created. So when the blow would come, it would be total.

In the case of the disintegration of Pakistan, there is no way Punjab can retain its independence. It will re-merge with India and the Punjabi Muslims most likely will fuse with the Sikh brethren across Wahga. Re-conversion of the most Punjabis to Skhism or Hinduism, or Qadianism (which is a Punjabi religion), and some kind of mixed religion can't be ruled out.

[tripledouble]

1. Punjabi "Muslims" have never had a state of their own in history thus their obsession with Pakistan (a country younger than the Coca Cola company). They have no history except Pakistan.

Punjabis did have a country under Ranjit Singh, whether he was a Sikh doesn't matter because he treated Punjabi Muslims and even Kashmiri Muslims better than Abdali.

There's a a famous saying i've heard from my punjabi friends about abdali:
""khada peeta laahey daa, te rehnda Ahmad Shahey daa"" which translates to, "what we eat and drink is our property; the rest belongs to Ahmad Shah."

Whether Pakistan is 67 years doesn't matter, idk why people are fixated with age so much(Bangladesh is even younger than Pakistan); countries have always been man made, so what if new countries were created, we don't have stick with the same old failed world order.

2. The number of people massacred in Bangladesh is most likely to be between 300-500,000 (the 3 million number is not accurate), still an absolutely horrific bloodbath though and Pakistan has killed more Muslims than Israel.

I condemn and i'm ashamed of the army for doing that, however East Pakistan at that time was one of the most densely populated places in the world(even today Bangladesh is densley populated), it was home 75 million people at that time with over 20,000 people per km*, so there were naturally going to be more deaths than in Palestine(home to just 4 million people), the dynamics were so different; btw the Pak army didn't murder them for religion but for ethnicity(unfortunately), whereas Israel kills Palestininians for being Muslim.

3. In my personal opinion if/when Pakistan breaks up (insha'Allah), Punjabis will abandon their militarism and concentrate on trade. This is because like many bullies they talk big when powerful but are quiet when weak i.e. when they are in control of Pakistan they will talk with bluster, when they are part of a landlocked state of Punjab that will all go.

First of all if Punjab and Sindh break free they will be annexed by India soon afterwards, and then India will create a Greater India; plus their will always be conflicts with Pashtuns on the border just like in the past under the Durranis,Lodhis,Suris etc, in fact there will be new disputes over Hazara,Mansehra,Attock and Mianwali so it's a never ending cycle.

[tripledouble]

Punjab's rise to power has been adventitious and due to subservience to the colonial powers of the West. They didn't achieve it by the dent of their own arm. The British kind of handed down the colony to the Punjabi Army that it created. So when the blow would come, it would be total.

In the case of the disintegration of Pakistan, there is no way Punjab can retain its independence. It will re-merge with India and the Punjabi Muslims most likely fuse with the Sikh brethren across Wahga. Re-conversion of the most Punjabis to Skhism or Hinduism, or Qadianism (which is a Punjabi religion), and some kind of mixed can't be ruled out.

lol you have a typical ethnofascist mindset, you think Punjabis aren't proper Muslims just because they're darker than Afghans , most Punjabis are Muslim, sunni Muslim in fact and most them that i know of(I've travelled througout Punjab) are proud muslims, so they aren't lesser Muslims, questioning someones imaan is haraam, and it's far fetched to think they will become Ahmadis, because Ahmadis are discriminated against in Punjab all the time.

[Toramana]

Shuja Nawaz is the brother of General Asif Nawaz and a kattas Punjabi lobbyists in US. Below is an excerpt from one of his articles. Obviously, he is trying hard to conceal the Punjabiness of the Paki Army by distorting figures.

"Traditionally, the army was a predominantly Punjabi force. In British India, three districts: Campbellpur (now Attock), Rawalpindi, and Jhelum dominated the recruitment flows that helped India send some 2.5 million soldiers to fight in World War II on behalf of the British Empire. The North West Frontier Province (NWFP) gradually began supplying troops and officers, as settled areas Pushtun tribesmen joined the military.

My research, based on official Pakistan Army data, indicates that by 1990 the percentage representation in the Pakistan Army as a whole (officers and Other Ranks or soldiers) was as follows: Punjabis 65 per cent; Pushtuns 14 per cent; Sindhis and Baluchis 15 per cent; Kashmiris 6 per cent; and Minorities 0.3 per cent.

Since then, with the provision of waivers for both physical and educational qualifications, recruitment has been increased from the formerly less well represented areas. Punjab shows an overall decline in recruitment of soldiers from 63.86 per cent in 1991 to 43.33 in 2005, with Central Punjab outpacing Northern Punjab, the traditional recruitment ground, by 7,500 to 5,000 recruits in 2005. Southern Punjab had 1,800 recruits. The NWFP and FATA increased from 20.91 per cent to 22.43 per cent, Sindh rose from 8.85 per cent to 23.02 per cent, with rural Sindh accounting for the majority of the recruits (5,095 to 2,500 in 2005), Baluchistan rose from 0.49 per cent to 1.52 per cent in 2005 with 200 urban to 300 rural recruits in 2005, and Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas rising from 5.86 per cent to 9.70 per cent."

http://www.india-seminar.com/2008/584/584_shuja_nawaz.htm

But impartial third-party observers place the Punjabi share of the army at 80%. Below is the correct figure from an academic source (Punjabi more than 80%, Sindhis less than 1%).

The army (which is 80% Punjabi and under 1% Sindhi) are also predominantly stationed in the interior and years of military rule have meant that the army is heavily involved in the military life of the country.(page 5)

http://www.stewartmorris.com/essays/27Chandra4.pdf

[Toramana]

"The above inter-sectoral imbalance in spending acquires a more critical dimension when compounded with the problem of ethnic imbalance in the armed forces. historically, the military has been dominated by people from
Punjab which is the largest province in terms of population. The larger issue,
however, is that the military does not select on the basis of an ethnic quota.
(The government does hire on provincial basis which does not necessarily mean from a particular ethnicity. People can be domiciled from a province but not belong to a peculiar ethnicity as one may find to a certain extent in the case of the civil bureaucracy). The armed forces traditionally have a bias for Punjabis and Pushtuns and that too from select areas. historically, the bulk of the army was drawn from Punjab. (Punjabi: 71-75 percent, Pushtun: 15-21 percent, Mohajir and sindhi: 3-5 percent, and Baluch: about 0.3 percent).8
Given the military’s tremendous political power, the less-powerful ethnic groups felt left out from the main corridors of power. It may be true that the federal government or a ruling party/coalition partnered with the local provincial elite. However, it still did not give them or the people the same influence and significance in state affairs as they would have got by being part of the security establishment. Consequently, leaders from minority provinces such as Baluchistan regard the military “not as a national military but a Punjabi force with a mercenary and exploitative character”.9"

http://www.claws.in/administrator/uploaded_files/1381380634MP-39%20F%20%20inside.pdf

[Bengal_Tiger]

Punjab's rise to power has been adventitious and due to subservience to the colonial powers of the West. They didn't achieve it by the dent of their own arm. The British kind of handed down the colony to the Punjabi Army that it created. So when the blow would come, it would be total.

In the case of the disintegration of Pakistan, there is no way Punjab can retain its independence. It will re-merge with India and the Punjabi Muslims most likely will fuse with the Sikh brethren across Wahga. Re-conversion of the most Punjabis to Skhism or Hinduism, or Qadianism (which is a Punjabi religion), and some kind of mixed religion can't be ruled out.

Personally my opinion is that if/when Pakistan breaks (insha'Allah), Punjab will stay independent.

1. India wouldn't want to incorporate 90 million more Muslims in to the Indian Union when they have enough issues with Muslims and other non-Hindus as well. This just tips the demography even more in favour of non-Hindus.


2. Nepal is smaller than Punjab but would never be invaded by India or annexed even though they are Hindus like the Indians.


3. There are officially 180 million Muslims (unofficially more, Muslims are at least 20% of India's population so around 240 million really) who have lived under Hindu domination for 70 years and are still Muslim.

If/when Pakistan breaks up (insha'Allah) the Punjabis will just be unable to carry on bullying and oppressing other Muslims e.g. Pashtuns, Sindhis, Mohajirs, Balochis and even Bengalis (they - together with the Saudis - have waged a political and economic war against us) and focus more on economic development.

[Pakwatan]

Personally my opinion is that if/when Pakistan breaks (insha'Allah), Punjab will stay independent.

1. India wouldn't want to incorporate 90 million more Muslims in to the Indian Union when they have enough issues with Muslims and other non-Hindus as well. This just tips the demography even more in favour of non-Hindus.


2. Nepal is smaller than Punjab but would never be invaded by India or annexed even though they are Hindus like the Indians.


3. There are officially 180 million Muslims (unofficially more, Muslims are at least 20% of India's population so around 240 million really) who have lived under Hindu domination for 70 years and are still Muslim.

If/when Pakistan breaks up (insha'Allah) the Punjabis will just be unable to carry on bullying and oppressing other Muslims e.g. Pashtuns, Sindhis, Mohajirs, Balochis and even Bengalis (they - together with the Saudis - have waged a political and economic war against us) and focus more on economic development.

Keep dreaming you Bengali servant of Hindus.

There are enough Bengali Pakistanis in Karachi to make your dream become a nightmare. LOL

[Bengal_Tiger]

Punjabiphobia isn't good for you [MENTION=1201]Toramana[/MENTION] [MENTION=1058]Bengal_Tiger[/MENTION]

They're just normal people, trying to get on with life; you should hate the elite who control the governments, it's not really about ethnicity but more about class, and most poor and middle class Punjabis are just normal people.

One of the standard phrases by Afghans on this forum is "we don't hate the ordinary Punjabi but just the government".

As a Bengali our reality is different. We are hated by Punjabis and seen as inferior.

People can say whatever they want on the internet and pretend to be nice but the fact is Punjabis do not like us. Even in England, Punjabis/Mirpuris harass Bengalis in places like Oldham, Luton and so on.

Punjabis are not very nice people.

All non-Muslim Punjabis who live in Pakistan and have to put up with them including Mohajirs, Sindhis, Balochis, Pashtuns know this. They are an arrogant people who bully non-Punjabis.

Punjabis did have a country under Ranjit Singh

That is not a "Punjabi Muslim" state. That was a Punjabi Sikh state.

I condemn and i'm ashamed of the army for doing that, however East Pakistan at that time was one of the most densely populated places in the world(even today Bangladesh is densley populated), it was home 75 million people at that time with over 20,000 people per km*, so there were naturally going to be more deaths than in Palestine(home to just 4 million people), the dynamics were so different; btw the Pak army didn't murder them for religion but for ethnicity(unfortunately), whereas Israel kills Palestininians for being Muslim.

The difference is whereas Israel bombs from planes and other weapons the Pakistani/Punjabi army sent its soldiers on the ground to go to villages and mass murder Muslim Bengalis and also to rape them. There were whole villages virtually wiped out and where every female (including girls) were raped. Population density is irrelevant here, because we are not talking of bombing or collateral damage but intentional mass murder not by weapons but by humans going out to mass murder on the instructions of Pakistani officers.

The Pakistan/Punjabi army were "Muslims" killing fellow Muslims and even using the name of holy Islam (astaghfirullah).

Even to this day the Saudi regime and elite support Pakistan over the 1971 war.

Pakistan has refused to apologize. Under Islam if a Muslim wrongs another Muslim he must seek forgiveness for him or he will carry that sin with him. Those Pakistani soldiers who murdered Bengali civilians have to ask them for forgiveness otherwise they may face severe torture in hell, and their allies the Saudis cannot save them from the wrath of Allah.

Instead Punjabis are creating problems for Bengalis by starting a political war with us over us trying Bangladeshi war criminals, separating Muslim families on the "Durrand line" and recently starving Muslims (Pashtuns) by withholding wheat supplies.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1107661/sc-asks-punjab-to-end-unlawful-wheat-curbs

Punjabis as usual showing their version of "Muslim Brotherhood".

When Punjabis need something, they use the "Muslim brotherhood" card, and when they don't Muslim Brotherhood is irrelevant.