Talking to the Taliban?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Talking to the Taliban if fine, but that is not the root of our problem. The biggest problem with Afghans is that we not a governable people. We have to submit to a system, be it a tribal system or a parliamentary system or anything else you wish, but we need to come under that banner of a system.

Afghans have had many great leaders in the past. Dr. Muhammad Najibullah Ahmadzai is the best example of our time. Yes, he was commie. Yes, he did a lot of wrong. However, he realized his mistakes and tried to mend them. But that was not enough for the mujahiddeen who claimed to know the secrets of the heart. They accused Najibullah of trying to trick them.

As Muslims, if we hope for Allah's forgiveness we must also know how to forgive.

We Afghans cannot have a stance. We always think: It's my way or the highway. We have to learn how to deal with the needs of everyone. This is how you come sincerely within a system and then follow the dictates of that system.

[Roshina]

This raises some important questions:

1. Why the above 'leaders' and parties always have a soft corner for the Taliban? And, what are their intentions behind supporting a talk with the Taliban?
2. Should the Afghan Govt. talk with the Taliban?
3. Should Pakistan talk with the Taliban too?

I like the first question. It makes one think, eh.

Here's what I think.

I'm not sure about "talking" to them (I'll get to that later, though). But you can't get rid of Talibanization by killing those who hold the ideologies of the Taliban. Talibanization is a state of mind, a violent state of mind. This compels me to ask the following questions:

1. Why are almost all suicide bombers extremely young males?
2. Why is it that the children of the Taliban leaders are educated in the west in major and important institutions?
3. Why do the laws that the Taliban enforce, or wish to enforce, not apply to the Taliban themselves and/or to their families?

The answer to the first question should include the answer to the whole idea of "talking to the Taliban." That is to say, if these children were not raised in a society smothered with religious extremism, they woudln't have to be dreaming of 72 hoors in heaven by killing themselves and other people. If these kids were educated instead, or at least sent to school on a daily-basis, and they had teachers who forced them to use their reason and intellect to grow into something useful for the betterment of humanity and their own society, these young males wouldn't be feeling hopeless enough to kill themselves and other people for the sake of a life in heaven with 72 hoors who may not even be promised to them.

If these kids had a future to look forward to, if they had dreams and were taught to dreams and never hindered from having goals and were instead supported fully in all their endeavors to become something, whether inside or outside of their motherland, they woudln't have to resort to suicide bombings.

I say that because . . . how rich are those who enforce the Talibanistic beliefs? How educated are they? The Taliban leaders are quite well off, but what about those whom they mislead and fool? Even here on PF, if you look around, how many Taliban-supporters are actually IN Afghanistan? Most, if not all, are living and being educated abroad (the west at that!).

That's why Talibanization is a state of mind. It woudln't be there, these extremist beliefs we have wouldn't be there, if we were educated properly. We need to teach kids from the time they are born how to respect people and differences. If they don't learn it from that time, at least start in pre-schools, and that's where teachers (not just parents) become responsible as well.

So, should we be talking to the Taliban? What would we say? "Stop killing innocent people"? They'll go, "They're not innocent. They're Shiite, they're kuffar, they're infidels," etc., etc. (And we know how broad their definition of kuffar is.) "We told them to become Muslims, but they refused, so now they have to be killed, because that's what God tells us." That's what the Taliban would say, if they haven't already said it (and I'm quite sure they have). That's to say that they HAVE justifications for their actions. It's quite amazing sometimes what all they'll say or do to justify their murderous actions. Are you familiar with the documentary called "Re-inventing the Taliban?"? Look into it, if you haven't already.

I think "talking" to them wouldn't work at all. I honestly believe they're an incorrigible group of folks who cannot be dealt with peacefully. Besides, you can't knock sense into them now; it's too late. But we can work on correcting the mistakes we've made by avoiding similar/violent minds like those of the Taliban in the future.

However, if eventually the whole world agrees that we should talk with the Taliban, then, yes, Pakistan AND Afghanistan would have to do it. Absolutely.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

At the very end he started begging for Pashtun support but what good does that do? A Politician can't kill hundreds and then begin to apologize and start to give speeches in Pashto at the UN to gain support.

That's not how life works.

Are we better off without him, dearest sister?

[Roshina]

Many here live in the west and they don't have a clue who and what the Taliban are and what their intentions are. Many have got their concept of the Taliban from Pakistani news sources or from Youtube. [...]

Leave this they did this to swat, they banned schools monkey business to the side. They never banned female institutions in Afghanistan they wanted them to be reformed.

You're a journalist, Jasmine? That's too cool! Are you active in the media? Wait, lemme rephrase that question: What's your specific job as a journalist? And where are you currently based, if you don't mind my asking publicly?

About your post . . . here are my thoughts.

1. We can't "leave" what they did to Swat. Not because I'm from Swat and it's all personal to me, but because the fact that the Taliban are viewed differently by the Pukhtuns in both countries says a lot. Many from Afghanistan don't mind the Taliban; ALL from Swat mind them to every extent possible. How can we be assured that what the Taliban did in Swat, they won't do elsewhere or they won't do it again any time soon? Not only that, we can't ignore the horrible things they did in Swat. Just because they were not as despicable as they were/are in Swat doesn't make them any less of devils and beasts. So, it's unfair to focus only on how they "did not close schools, or stop girls from going to school, in Afghanistan, though they did in Swat."

(But I have to add here that parts of what the Taliban did in Swat, they enforced in Afghanistan as well. Examples include forcing people to marry their young daughters off to militants, beating women whose faces weren't covered in public, and banning education. You don't believe this? Talk to the Afghan refugees. I've friends from Afghanistan who say this: A Hazara female (from Kabul, 25 years old) and three Pashtun friends from Afghanistan (two are from Kabul and the other from somewhere I don't remember; one's 28 years old, another in her late 50s, and another in her mid 40s. The elder ladies were prominent leaders in their communities in Afghanistan, and one even used to lead a Girls' Scout group and take the females with her on trips abroad!). Forget what the media shoves down our throats; let's focus instead on what Afghan survivors THEMSELVES have to say about their experience under the Taliban. If someone who worked at a school in Kabul tells you her school was shut down and she was not permitted to work or lead a Girls Scout anymore, who's the media to tell you, "That's not true"? Who's someone who didn't live at that time to tell you that that's not true? When I told them about what my mother was telling my family when she was in Swat, my these Afghan friends would go, "OMG! That's what they did to us in Afghanistan, too!!" It was just as people like to say: History repeats itself -- only, some of us were literally living those repeats, and it was as oppressive as life can get.

2. If "many" have got their views about the Taliban from Pakistani sources or youtube videos and are clearly unaware of the "facts," then what's the real truth, Jasmine? I mean, I guess those Pukhtuns living in Swat and other areas tortured by the Taliban are just making everything up -- even though they're not getting any money or other kinds of rewards for it. I guess my family and relatives living in Swat right now and who were there during the peak times of the Taliban plague were all just lying to us that schools are closed, announcements have been made to marry 9+ year-old girls off to militants, and that the Taliban leaders (particularly Muslim Khan) are living in luxurious bungalows that look like ordinary mud houses from the outside.

Regarding the ordinariness of the Taliban... they may be -- except, most of them are what we refer to as "tor patkyaan," what with their black turbans around their heads and faces and all. And, no, this isn't coming from the media or a journalist: It's coming from someone whose direct family member (mother) saw the Taliabn roaming around on every corner of many villages in Swat for 5+ months in 2009, last year.

BUT! You know what DOES make them "un-ordinary" (in a bad way)? This: They are (ordinary) people who want to kill infidels. This isn't ordinary, actually. It's far from ordinary. Their thinking is different from the ordinary individual, their actions are different, their dreams are different . . . The language of most of them (reminder: not all Pukhtuns are Taliban) is Pashto, but that doesn't make them ordinary just like everyone else.

The Taliban aren't our only enemies. Our list of enemies INCLUDES the Taliban but extends to the ISI / PK army. So, yes, we should be focusing on others as well, but when we can help reduce the extremist mindset enforced by the Taliban, why not start/continue there?

[lalala]

‘Talking to the Taliban’ is a prevalent argument both in Afghanistan and Pakistan these days. In Pakistan, people like Sirajul Haq (Jumat-e-Islami), Imran Khan (PTI), Fazl-e-Rahman (JUI) and Hameed Gul etc. are stressing that when the Afghan Government and the US can talk to the Taliban in Afghanistan why can’t we talk to the Taliban in Pakistan? Imran Khan would even offer himself as a mediator between the Pakistani Government and the Taliban. This raises some important questions:

1. Why the above 'leaders' and parties always have a soft corner for the Taliban? And, what are their intentions behind supporting a talk with the Taliban?
2. Should the Afghan Govt. talk with the Taliban?
3. Should Pakistan talk with the Taliban too?

of course these punjabis have affection for their stooge aka the taliban


it is their personal terrorist organization, they use it to work on their behalf while they talk from the other side of their mouths telling the west the are a "partner in the war on terror" which is a real joke


Afghanistan does not need to deal with the punjabis proxy army


as for pakistan i couldn't care less what they do, i thought this was Pashtun forums, what do i care what some punjbis want think or do?

[lalala]

Yes I am active in the media. ...

Your being emotional here honey, read the above I have clarified on this.

This is going in circles honey, Id suggest you to read a few books and first learn about the movement of Taliban before you pass on judgements like you already have.

why don't you refrain from calling people "honey", it does not give you an appearance of authority like you think it does nor does pretending you have no emotion while you prepetually point out other peoples emotion



besides which it's clear who you are and what your agenda here is so your defense of pakistani terrorism against Afghans is worth less than utter crap

[شمله ور خراساني]

Jasmine sister! Well said. If you have an opinion which is based on your own first hand knowledge, then speak out! Let these people who solely rely on second hand knowledge smell the truth.

[lalala]

Me and Qrratugai have a friendship and its not our first time discussing. If she feels offended with me calling her honey out of love, Id apologize to her not to you.

As to your 2nd part, you don't know me well enough to say that. If you go through my posts I probably condemn Pakistani Govt more than anyone in this site. I probably dislike the Taliban more than anyone in this website.


Just because I have studied them, read books about them, wrote about them for newspapers that even you might have read does not mean I support them. Qrratugai knows just because you are able to defend someone does not mean you support them.

i've read your posts so i am well aware of who you are, if i wasn't i woulnd't have said that i was

furthermore i don't need your apology nor did i ask for it, though when you call people "honey" and blubber about their emotions it gives the impression that your making some sad attempt at diverting the issue to give some illusion that you are more well informed than you really are


you keep boasting and bragging yet for a busy journalist you certainly have quite a bit of free time to devote to online messge forums

[شمله ور خراساني]

I am supporter of the Taliban dispite their imperfections I still think they are much better than any other group or movement. This obviously does not mean I believe they are the solution for every problem. But they certainly are a solution to our main problem. Namely the current occupation and the puppet regime of looters, pimps, pillagers and thieves.

I'd rather live in an Afghanistan where everybody is equally poor and unfortunate than an Afghanistan where the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer. While some secularists and evil people who are primarily apostates keep chanting and cheering for in favor of the crusaders. We have thousands of innocent people who have lost their lives at the hands of the people who are now in power. Anyone who picks up a gun and fights the crusaders and their puppets is a solid muslim in my book.

Eventhough I am not much in favor of Hizb Islami, I'd say today, under current circumstances, the fact that they are fighting the crusaders increases their status towards positive in my view.

Whoever supports Karzai and the crusaders, I consider them as sub-human nihilist extremists. And I wouldn't mind seeing them being exterminated like cockroaches.

[شمله ور خراساني]

You are not alone after many have witnessed the injustice of the democratical system in Afghanistan. Even though the Taliban system was far from perfect. People honestly miss it.

But the reason why it was not perfect is obvious. One has to study history, they have to understand the time-line in which the Taliban took over. Its not like they took-over London and transformed London into a Swat. They took over a country in rubbles.

I totally agree with everything you said.

The thing is, I am from a very mixed and diverse background. I have relatives who were high functionaries in KHAD, I have others among my villages who fought the Soviets. And some of my cousins were commanders with the Taliban.

From my entire family, the only people who did not live in Kabul through-out the 90's was me and my parents. The rest of our whole family spent their days in Kabul during the most horrific times.

My uncles were taken of the bus by Hazara fighters because they were Pashtuns. And they were about to cook them alive, but they have escaped luckily. But other people from our village were less fortunate. Our village imaam's eyes were pulled out. Most of our possessions in Kabul were either looted or destroyed. Ahmed Shah Massouds men tried to kick my grandparents out of their house and take the house for themselves. Similarly other relatives of mine experienced most horrific things. I have several cousins, nieces and nephews who are severely traumatized and are unable to function like others. This is all due to the violence in Kabul in the early 90's. They saw scores of dead, people chopped into pieces and women lying on streets after being gang-raped and mutilated.

All of my family were relieved when Taliban arrived. Many of our villagers joined them. And some were wounded or even became martyrs fighting the northern Alliance in Shamali & Qunduz.

I know what kind of people Taliban were like. They were not organized, unsophisticated, primitive, and mostly ignorant. They have hurt people, they abused people, they forced men to grow beards and sent men to mosque by force. My aunt was scolded at at the market because she couldn't see through the silly burqa and wanted to pick her burqa up and look at the product with her face uncovered. My uncle was beaten up by Taliban for having a "communist haircut". And similarly, there are many other stories of how Taliban were bad.

But if we put all of the above on a weighing scale and compare, the second half of the 90's was much much better than the first half.

And today, considered all the things that have occurred in the past 9 years, I mean, my relatives have got jobs now, they earn good money, they have nice properties and everything. But there are things that money can't buy. Which is dignity and security. No matter how rich and wealthy you become, the sense of safety and security of the late 90's is something most people speak about when you ask them what they lack in their lives.

I am not a poor person. Allah has given me everything. I've spent most of my life in safety and security outside Afghanistan. But I am most certain, that if I would have lived under the circumstances the average unfortunate youth in Afghanistan is living in, I would have either blown myself up or gone up in the mountains to fight the crusaders.

So for people here to come and lecture us about Taliban not being Pashtuns or Taliban being proxies of Pakistan, I have nothing else to say but to only wish for them the same suffering and humiliation most of our brothers and sisters are enduring today.

[Roshina]

Qrratugai knows this very well, just because I am capable of defending someone does not mean I support them.

Good that you know this as well! Many people think that if you defend a certain perspective, it must be your own, or else you wouldn't be supporting it. However, there's a certain tone that's used when we refer to people sarcastically or sincerely. I believe that's what "lalala" was referring to, if I'm not wrong. One can tell what you really mean when you talk to people and use certain endearments. But me, they don't bother me, so it's all good, so you can be as sarcastic or as sincere as you want, or use whatever "endearments" as you want, and it wouldn't bother or affect me in any way, guley.

[Roshina]

This is not true. First we have to define the word Taliban. What is Taliban in your words? You do know the term Taliban has changed now right? So if your dad gets upset at the west for constantly abusing you and he begin to grab arms(traditionally, Pashtuns are known for badal against foreigners)would you label him an ISI spy or a generic Taliban? I have met many people, interviewed many as well.

What happened in Swat was more of an Indian influence. It was the Indian revenge on Pakistan. No where in Islamic Shariah does it say to close schools or that females should not be educated. Both of those points are not Taliban-like and they are wrong.

If I start a crew,gang or clique and begin to terrorizing and I happen so to also call myself Taliban would you call all Taliban bad? There were good and bad elements of the movement.

Incorrect and not true. This is propaganda. This is more of a Pashtun culture honey. In our culture, we enforce our young daughters to marry other tribes to settle tribal feud. Associating this with Taliban or Islam is not right. Islam does not allow such a thing.

Banning Education is also false and not true. Zabiullah Mujahid never said Taliban wants to ban Education. These silly messages come from propagandists.


In my line of work, I do. Its my job hun.

so If I start showing sources that show people want the Taliban would you change your mind? If I start saying I met people(which I have) who want the Taliban back would you agree with me? Honey, you have confused what it means to be a Talib.

one more time there was elements in the movement that was backed by the Pakistani government which forced Afghanistan to stay in the dark ages. That does not mean that was the intention of the movement. If someone in Universities shoots someone with a gun do I have the right to go on a Forums and denounce your entire University as violent crooks?

Your being emotional here honey, read the above I have clarified on this.

This is going in circles honey, Id suggest you to read a few books and first learn about the movement of Taliban before you pass on judgements like you already have.

The Taliban are not the same as the Mujahideen, so if that's what you're asking me if I know that they've changed, then I'd have to, of course, say, yes, they've changed. However, the Taliban are the product of the Mujahideen. Whereas the intention of the Mujahideen was to HELP its people, the Taliban (and I speak on behalf of those who have destroyed Swat) have not been any good to us at all.

Now, if your attempt is to tell me that, no, those aren't the "real" Taliban, that's a whole different story, and many have tried the same but none have succeeded in proving that.

As I said in my last post about this, there's a huge difference between the experiences of the Pashtuns in Afghanistan and those in Pakistan (specifically Swat and nearby districts that were ruined by the Taliban). Those from Pakistan's side DON'T want the Taliban back, and for this, I don't need you to give me sources to prove me wrong when I know the people in Swat and am directly in touch with them.

The people in Afghanistan, some of them, yes, miss the Taliban, and we have some Pashtuns here as proof for that, so I don't need you to give me sources for that either.

And, no, it's not going in circles: The Pashtuns from Pakistan and Afghanistan did NOT have the exact same experiences as those in Afghanistan. When you say you want the Taliban back or that they were good for us, then you are clearly speaking for only one side and not for both.

Also, my judgments are based on my observations and experiences. I don't need to pick up a book that's written by those who were never even INVOLVED in the war with the Taliban to tell me what the Taliban did in Swat or to Swatis. Again: My family, relatives, friends, neighbors, and other Swatis are enough for that, and I'd trust them over any source of the media. We all know the media has its own agendas and will reveal certain aspects of a movement while ignoring others. Just because you work with the media or are a journalist, doesn't mean I should trust you more than I trust my relatives' experiences -- again, the media is always biased, no exceptions.

And if it was just one or two families, or a couple of hundreds of people, who were killed or hurt by the Taliban, only THEN would you be able to say: "Would you blame an entire university if a student from it killed some people?" So, your comparison is completely illogical in this sense.

It's Indian influence that the Taliban banned education on females in Swat? Seriously, Jasmine? You've gotta be kidding me. Are you familiar with anything about Muslim Khan and Fazlullah? If not, I am - and those are the two main leaders of the Taliban in Swat. Not only am I familiar with them, I KNOW them as well. I know the family of Muslim Khan, I know his daughters, I know his sisters-in-law, I know his father. I also know that THEY don't support him at all and his father got a heart attack after being depressed over what his son Muslim Khan was doing to Swat and to innocent people.

There, Swatis don't want the Taliban. I've yet to meet anyone from Swat who does want the Taliban back.

When you speak on behalf of Pukhtuns, please remember that there are those in Pakistan as well, and their views and dreams and desires don't always resemble those of our brothers and sisters in Afghanistan. So it's unfair to say that "Oh, the Taliban of Swat were different -- or they're just a minority. The rest of the Taliban were/are good and want real Islam. And that's why people want them back."

[Roshina]

Ahh, but THAT's what I wanna know! What's a "true Talib"? And what's a "false" Talib?

What's the difference between good/bad or true/false Taliban? If the true Taliban are so much better or just good people in general, then what prevents you from supporting them (I'm thinking you don't support them, as you said in an earlier post)?

And read my post again. I didn't say I am not WILLING to read sources on the Taliban (although I won't always trust them since they're always biased - either way, don't assume I haven't read up on them. My room is currently, too, filled with them since they're a part of my thesis... if you must know); I said I'm going to trust witnesses, those who have physically been through it all.

[Dawezai]

Jasmine, if I am not wrong I can draw the following conclusions from your discussion:

1. Pakistani and Afghan Taliban are different from each other;
2. Afghan Taliban have/had a genuine agenda;
3. Pakistani Taliban are fake and Indian stooges;
4. The terms Taliban and Pashtuns can be used synonymously; and,
5. The people of Afghanistan (mainly the Pashtuns) favour the government of Taliban more than democracy.

Leaving aside a discussion on the authenticity of the above for now, could you please tell us the difference between the Pakistani stance and yours on the issue?

[Nokia_Apridy]

Mara da WOOR PATKAY bal ba hem pa Sar ku WARSRA wabku

Talibanu sra chay TALAKYANU taso na POOTBAL jor kray da kala

ma pa yo oley kala pa Bal....

Sam shay Gani darna ya PARAY KAWU

PA KEHAMANA BA WA ka sanga Dawazai lala