Aerial bombing of north waziristan has started again

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

You are wrong, Pakistan was created in the name of Islam. The growing number of secularists in Pakistan is not a good hope, its a danger thing to Pakistan. If you remove the religion and religious people in Pakistan then there will be Azaad Balochistan, Pakhtonistan, Sindh and Punjab and Kashmir a seprate territory so where is Pakistan then. Because all the secularist Parties want freedom and their own states. It is only Islam and the religious parties and people who have joined this pakistan and the people together.
Pakistan is not like other countries, for example Iran has its history or thousands of years, Afghanistan has also its history of thousands of years, the same for India, China and almost all the countries around us but Pakistan is a kid of sixty years. It has no history. It has no strong base. The only base and ideology it has is Islam and its religious people.

Not really,we are deluded that Islam is keeping Pakistan united.It is not but rather Pakistaniat in itself.

If Pakistan was created in the name of Islam than why more muslims were left in india than in Pakistan?Why was Pakistan not named as Islamic republic from start?Why was it named "State of Pakistan" for 9 long years.

Iran might be thousand years old or Afghanistan might be but today the pakistaniat concept is stronger than any sort of patriotism you can name except Indians or israely patriorism.

I have seen patriotic people from around the world but never as much as indian or pakistanis.This is my personal experience.I am a neutral person and even if i praise india against pakistna on military firepower level.He will blindly support Pakistan.and this is throughout the Pakistan.

Afghanistan was the worst example you have given me.I have never seen a patriotic person From Afghanistan.They are enemy of their own state.The only patriotic People in Afghanistan are the Tajik and uzbek.

Islamic brotherhood concept was proven wrong when Bangladesh got independence and the two nation theory was proved to be bogus..

Secularism is the way to go.

[Loy Afghanistan]

Of all the countries Pakistan needs Shariah the most, TTP needs to take over and Shariah must be implemented in the whole PAkistan. That country is now totaly turned to kaffir.

I know grana wroor. We see banu danu kuffr, who is anti Sharia law and Islam. He like US dollar coming to Islamabad, and he is afraid if TTP takes over Islamabad, declares Sharia and true ISLAM. He will loose US dollars and other gay/***** houses, he will not be able to have fun with haram stuff like drinking, partying, disco, gay porn, etc.

Why else would you be against Sharia law/Islam? He is afraid, because they will cut his head when they find out the gay porn he has on his computer.

http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2013/06/gay-porn-pakistan

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/14/gay-porn-pakistan_n_3437529.html

I have proof, my theory is backed by facts. There is big chance banu danu kuni, is afraid of Sharia law/Islam because these kind of stuff.

SO WERE IS THE JEHAD??? Is all good mullahs dead? All good grand muftis gone? We need to declare Jihad fast on Pakistan because tomorrow it will be late. I think its because of English. If you have English as official language then it is easier to loose. Ban English fix Arabic as official language NOW.

[DSM0305]

Just to clarify that if Pakistan become secular it will be divided in the same pattern as Afghanistan, if not worse. Secularism in a multi ethnic society where none of the ethnicities share common linguistic, history or culture are deemed to separate. The reason you see Baloch independent movement is because they are secular. The same independent movements can appear amongst other ethnicities.

Being secular means you will search for other ideologies to identify yourself with. The most common is nationalism where people will identify themselves with people that have the same ethnicity or language. Nationalism is suppressed in Islam and also the reason why there haven't been independent movement from Pashtun in Pakistan. Pashtuns were actually very close to independents in Pakistans early years, but Pakistanis installed even bigger effort to make them extreme religious. Since that tactic worked in Pakistan, they tried in Afghanistan as well.

Today it is a religious struggle in Pakistan, tomorrow will be an independent struggle.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

Nationalism is alot more stronger than Religious unity.

Atleast in pakistan case it failed e.g is bangladesh.

Other failure of fake Muslim brotherhood concept is Pakistan and Afghanistan.Both are muslim countries and sunni aswell by majority but still both of them hate each other the most

Secularism is the future.As long As we remain conservative muslims we will be one of the most backward countries in the world and now we are indeed among the most backward countries.

Poverty yes does initiate Independent movements but with the upward mobility of pakistani population.it will address all the cons.

Iran,turkey or KSa.All of them has strong foundation than Pakistan but in a matter of time we will leave them behind by decades.

Except I believe Indonesia is the only country that pakistan can never surpass for the next 200-300years

[jankhan]

Not really,we are deluded that Islam is keeping Pakistan united.It is not but rather Pakistaniat in itself.

If Pakistan was created in the name of Islam than why more muslims were left in india than in Pakistan?Why was Pakistan not named as Islamic republic from start?Why was it named "State of Pakistan" for 9 long years.

Iran might be thousand years old or Afghanistan might be but today the pakistaniat concept is stronger than any sort of patriotism you can name except Indians or israely patriorism.

I have seen patriotic people from around the world but never as much as indian or pakistanis.This is my personal experience.I am a neutral person and even if i praise india against pakistna on military firepower level.He will blindly support Pakistan.and this is throughout the Pakistan.

Afghanistan was the worst example you have given me.I have never seen a patriotic person From Afghanistan.They are enemy of their own state.The only patriotic People in Afghanistan are the Tajik and uzbek.

Islamic brotherhood concept was proven wrong when Bangladesh got independence and the two nation theory was proved to be bogus..

Secularism is the way to go.

Islamic republic was not mentioned earlier because there was no need for that but when they realized that there are some bad secularists then they put it so that to remind to them that this IS an Islamic republic and not a secular state. Where is pakistniat in pakistan lool ? Ask mqm, balochis, anp whole lot, kashmiris, sindhis.... they all wants separation, they don't care about pakistaniat. your army has been violating the constitution of pakistan so many times in the last 60 years, they have no respect for pakistan, they have allowed foreign occupation in pakistan, they have allowed drone strikes in pakistan, they have handed over their own people to their enemies, because of this army we have lost bengal, 90000 army men surrendered to indian army, so where is pakistaniat ?????????????? Your polititians and political parties are looting the county day and night and then go away to america and swiss so where is pakistaniat ??????? each and every pakistani is corrupt killing each other so where is pakistaniat ???????????? you are living in some other planet i think. your ISI and army's and govt policies have destroyed pakistaniat from the hearts of the people.
the people of Afghanistan are waking up now. Afghanistan was invaded by so many huge invaders for hundreds of years but still its the same Afghanistan, your pakistan have seen just one blow and you lost your half country loooool......
you can't win the kashmir cause looooll... and then you tell me of pakistaniat. wake up

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

Baloch Independent Movement is run by only odd 5000 terrorists org like BLA.

I can invite my baloch friends to this Forum and beleive me they are as much patriotic as much a common Punjabi or pashtun could be.

I have given you guys example from miranshah.Sometime i curse them for blindly supporting Pakistan While i remain neutral and support India.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

Islamic republic was not mentioned earlier because there was no need for that but when they realized that there are some bad secularists then they put it so that to remind to them that this IS an Islamic republic and not a secular state. Where is pakistniat in pakistan lool ? Ask mqm, balochis, anp whole lot, kashmiris, sindhis.... they all wants separation, they don't care about pakistaniat. your army has been violating the constitution of pakistan so many times in the last 60 years, they have no respect for pakistan, they have allowed foreign occupation in pakistan, they have allowed drone strikes in pakistan, they have handed over their own people to their enemies, because of this army we have lost bengal, 90000 army men surrendered to indian army, so where is pakistaniat ?????????????? Your polititians and political parties are looting the county day and night and then go away to america and swiss so where is pakistaniat ??????? each and every pakistani is corrupt killing each other so where is pakistaniat ???????????? you are living in some other planet i think. your ISI and army's and govt policies have destroyed pakistaniat from the hearts of the people.
the people of Afghanistan are waking up now. Afghanistan was invaded by so many huge invaders for hundreds of years but still its the same Afghanistan, your pakistan have seen just one blow and you lost your half country loooool......
you can't win the kashmir cause looooll... and then you tell me of pakistaniat. wake up

This is what democracy stand for.

You can demand anything you want.You don't see any liberation movement in KSA or Iran or similar states because they are killed just upon declaring so.

in Democracy you can say whatever you want.

Bangladesh was never meant to be a country to remain forever with Pakistan.The Partition between both states was inenvitable.

And most important India could not have seperated Bangladesh if they bengali themselves not wanted so.We have Only 34 thousand troops in Bangladesh and the rest were all paramilitary and other official authories.?and how many they were suppose to face?Millions of bengali civilians.1million indian army,Our troops has no supply line.Bangaldesh was surrounded by india from all side.

Well Afghanistan geography was the reason why it was not divided or remained so.?

Back than Land with greater arable land was considered worth invading.Afghanistan even today is considered a dud land.Only the KPK region was worth arable land.

Even invaders originating from Afghanistan never made any capital in afghanistan because the land was dud.While Indian or Punjab was considered as the Land of Golds.

During Mughal era India was world largest GDP with 33% GDP share.Higher than even America in 2000 or today.

Pakistaniat today is thousand times stronger than it was a decade before or anytime earlier.

Even TTP bow down to Pakistaniat.They consider Pakistan as a state.only they doesnt recognize the govt of Pakistan and its relations with USA/NATO.

TTP may be whatever but they are loyal to pakistan and love Pakistan as a state.They talk in Urdu,Umar media is in urdu and eveything they do is in urdu.

Probably its time for you to grow up and accept the realities

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

Secularism doesnt mean we will become kafirs.

Secularism will certainly reduce the extremism in our society.Pakistanis still can be easily fooled by religious emotions.

Though even in the current state if Pakistan remain so than still we are not as much conservative as much ksa or iran is.

In Pakistan history the worst time was between 2007-2013 and the time is over.

[DSM0305]

Nationalism is alot more stronger than Religious unity.

Atleast in pakistan case it failed e.g is bangladesh.

Other failure of fake Muslim brotherhood concept is Pakistan and Afghanistan.Both are muslim countries and sunni aswell by majority but still both of them hate each other the most

Secularism is the future.As long As we remain conservative muslims we will be one of the most backward countries in the world and now we are indeed among the most backward countries.

Poverty yes does initiate Independent movements but with the upward mobility of pakistani population.it will address all the cons.

Iran,turkey or KSa.All of them has strong foundation than Pakistan but in a matter of time we will leave them behind by decades.

Except I believe Indonesia is the only country that pakistan can never surpass for the next 200-300years

Do you know what nationalism is? Nationalism is a strong concept of ethnically and linguistic unity. Pakistan isn't a nation state, it is a federation. This means there is no linguistic or ethnically connection between the people of Pakistan.

The reason Bangladesh got independent was because of Pakistans fascism. In that time and even now people in Pakistan believed the fake concept of ''martial race'', which caused unfairly treatment of Bangladesh people. Basically to sum it up, Bangladesh got independent because of secularism. It was also in that time Pakistani government started extremism of Pashtun people, because of the nationalism amongst Pashtun at that time. Which prevented independent Pashtunistan.

Regarding the hatred amongst Afghans and Pakistanis is also related to secularization of the countries. It is also why Pakistanis decided to implant the same of idea of very conservative Islam in Afghanistan, to prevent a hostile Afghanistan.

Iran, Turkey, Arab countries are all nation state, which means their country consist of people who have the same culture, ethnicities, linguistic, history or background. In short they have the same identity. Pakistan in the other hand is a federation, which means they don't have the same identity.

Basically the only way Pakistan can become a nation state is to create a common identity. Since Pakistan don't have the same linguistic, history, ethnicity they have to find something common amongst Pakistani people. Now tell me what is the common thing amongst Pakistanis, it is Islam if you didn't knew it already. So in short if Pakistan have to survive in long term, then it need a religious foundation. To make it short, Taliban is the only people who can help Pakistan unite and create a strong shared identity.

When you kill Taliban in Pakistan, you're basically killing Pakistan identity and survival for a long term prosperity. People tend to believe conservatism is backwardness, but is not. If you look closely at Iran(before the sanctions), Saudi Arabia or other prosperous countries, they are all dominated by conservative people. What makes a country backward isn't conservatism, but War. So right now Pakistan is trapping itself in a situation that will hurt them in the long run.

[DSM0305]

Baloch Independent Movement is run by only odd 5000 terrorists org like BLA.

I can invite my baloch friends to this Forum and beleive me they are as much patriotic as much a common Punjabi or pashtun could be.

I have given you guys example from miranshah.Sometime i curse them for blindly supporting Pakistan While i remain neutral and support India.

The problem with you is that, when you meet one guy who have a certain view, you automatically assume everyone in his ethnicity/country is the same. You can show thousands of Baloch who support Pakistan, but it wont change the ground realities of millions of Baloch. One cannot know how many people are in independent movements/groups. Numbers that are posted in various links/sources are just assumptions.

The thing is with independent movements that it can't exist without the consent of the people. If the people didn't support it, there couldn't even be a single independent fighter.

[DSM0305]

To clarify the fake assumption of Afghanistan being a ''dull'' land. In reality Afghanistan have many trillion $ worth of resources. The problem is the constant war in Afghanistan, which prevent Afghanistan from ever using them.

Afghanistan is also very strategic position, and if there weren't war in Afghanistan, it could have been a trade route that linked central Asia, South Asia, middle east and even to some extend Europe and America to each other. Basically most of the world trade could have been done through Afghanistan.

The problem with Afghanistan have always been war and nothing else. Uneducated people just assume Afghanistan is a dull land, because of their lack of knowledge regarding realities.

[jankhan]

This is what democracy stand for.

You can demand anything you want.You don't see any liberation movement in KSA or Iran or similar states because they are killed just upon declaring so.

in Democracy you can say whatever you want.

Bangladesh was never meant to be a country to remain forever with Pakistan.The Partition between both states was inenvitable.

And most important India could not have seperated Bangladesh if they bengali themselves not wanted so.We have Only 34 thousand troops in Bangladesh and the rest were all paramilitary and other official authories.?and how many they were suppose to face?Millions of bengali civilians.1million indian army,Our troops has no supply line.Bangaldesh was surrounded by india from all side.

Well Afghanistan geography was the reason why it was not divided or remained so.?

Back than Land with greater arable land was considered worth invading.Afghanistan even today is considered a dud land.Only the KPK region was worth arable land.

Even invaders originating from Afghanistan never made any capital in afghanistan because the land was dud.While Indian or Punjab was considered as the Land of Golds.

During Mughal era India was world largest GDP with 33% GDP share.Higher than even America in 2000 or today.

Pakistaniat today is thousand times stronger than it was a decade before or anytime earlier.

Even TTP bow down to Pakistaniat.They consider Pakistan as a state.only they doesnt recognize the govt of Pakistan and its relations with USA/NATO.

TTP may be whatever but they are loyal to pakistan and love Pakistan as a state.They talk in Urdu,Umar media is in urdu and eveything they do is in urdu.

Probably its time for you to grow up and accept the realities

Loool i never talked about ttp struggling for any separate state. ttp is a pro pakistan movement. i was talking about other factors that you avoided to talk about.
Anyways the rest of your points are irrilevant

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

To clarify the fake assumption of Afghanistan being a ''dull'' land. In reality Afghanistan have many trillion $ worth of resources. The problem is the constant war in Afghanistan, which prevent Afghanistan from ever using them.

Afghanistan is also very strategic position, and if there weren't war in Afghanistan, it could have been a trade route that linked central Asia, South Asia, middle east and even to some extend Europe and America to each other. Basically most of the world trade could have been done through Afghanistan.

The problem with Afghanistan have always been war and nothing else. Uneducated people just assume Afghanistan is a dull land, because of their lack of knowledge regarding realities.

Dud land considering the past.

Ofcourse oil or related mineral were of no importance because of no extraction procedure developed back than but arable lands were considered and were the reason to be conquered.

Under aurangzeb India had a GDP of 33% of the world.Because india is one of the most fertile land on earth.India was considered as Golden sparrow back than just because of Alot of rivers and larger arable land.

Well Afghanistan was not always at war if we consider the history.As an example compare karachi with Afghanistan.

Afghanistan being older than Karachi but karachi even if we trace it back 100 years.was more developed than any part of Afghanistan.Because it was a strategic region.

[DSM0305]

Dud land considering the past.

Ofcourse oil or related mineral were of no importance because of no extraction procedure developed back than but arable lands were considered and were the reason to be conquered.

Under aurangzeb India had a GDP of 33% of the world.Because india is one of the most fertile land on earth.India was considered as Golden sparrow back than just because of Alot of rivers and larger arable land.

Well Afghanistan was not always at war if we consider the history.As an example compare karachi with Afghanistan.

Afghanistan being older than Karachi but karachi even if we trace it back 100 years.was more developed than any part of Afghanistan.Because it was a strategic region.

Pashtuns(both Pakistani and Afghan) and other Afghan ethnicities were extreme good traders, and Afghanistan was the route to India back than. You need to take that into consideration.
That of course changed when Genghis khan invaded. His method wasn't to conquer or subdue the land, he literally burned cities and villages. Women got raped and children and men got killed. It is after that Pashtuns adapted the warrior mentality. Afterward Afghans became rulers and conquerors, not builders. A building can be build in any land, but Pashtuns simply weren't those type of people. Conquering was the number one priority of Pashtuns.

One must take historical event into consideration.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

Do you know what nationalism is? Nationalism is a strong concept of ethnically and linguistic unity. Pakistan isn't a nation state, it is a federation. This means there is no linguistic or ethnically connection between the people of Pakistan.

The reason Bangladesh got independent was because of Pakistans fascism. In that time and even now people in Pakistan believed the fake concept of ''martial race'', which caused unfairly treatment of Bangladesh people. Basically to sum it up, Bangladesh got independent because of secularism. It was also in that time Pakistani government started extremism of Pashtun people, because of the nationalism amongst Pashtun at that time. Which prevented independent Pashtunistan.

Regarding the hatred amongst Afghans and Pakistanis is also related to secularization of the countries. It is also why Pakistanis decided to implant the same of idea of very conservative Islam in Afghanistan, to prevent a hostile Afghanistan.

Iran, Turkey, Arab countries are all nation state, which means their country consist of people who have the same culture, ethnicities, linguistic, history or background. In short they have the same identity. Pakistan in the other hand is a federation, which means they don't have the same identity.

Basically the only way Pakistan can become a nation state is to create a common identity. Since Pakistan don't have the same linguistic, history, ethnicity they have to find something common amongst Pakistani people. Now tell me what is the common thing amongst Pakistanis, it is Islam if you didn't knew it already. So in short if Pakistan have to survive in long term, then it need a religious foundation. To make it short, Taliban is the only people who can help Pakistan unite and create a strong shared identity.

When you kill Taliban in Pakistan, you're basically killing Pakistan identity and survival for a long term prosperity. People tend to believe conservatism is backwardness, but is not. If you look closely at Iran(before the sanctions), Saudi Arabia or other prosperous countries, they are all dominated by conservative people. What makes a country backward isn't conservatism, but War. So right now Pakistan is trapping itself in a situation that will hurt them in the long run.

you raised Good points.Pakistan was a federation but Today Pakistani is even considered a race.

And after 100 years it might truely become a race.

Your right about Bangladesh and pakistani govt attitude toward them but Bangladesh and pakistan with such big enemy between was bound to seperate.

Sorry my dear but neither today iran or turkey is a nation.Iran is a merged up country out of

*Baloch land(Sistan balochistan,quite big)
*Kurds historic land
*Azerbaijani people historic land
*turksmen history land
* and only in the middle is the old persian dominated region.

Of them Baloch,Turks and Azerbaijani.All of them are looking for a country but they will never form it same is the case with Pakistan.

Kurds speak different language,Baloch different,Azerbaijani different.All of them speak different language same as pakistan

Turkey also is fighting a war with kurds seperatist.In turkey turks also are only 65% of the population

In turkey or Iran

*Kurds,baloch,azerbaijani or the turksmen atleast has reason to seperate since turkey is only for turks while iran for persian

But tell me what is this in Pakistan case?

*A pashtun can't claim that Pakistan means Punjabi or sindhi
*A sindhi can't claim that Pakistan means pashtuns or baloch
*A punjabi can't claim that Pakistan means baloch or saraiki.

Because Pakistan from start was made a country for Muslims(not Islam) and not for any specific ethnicity.

Hence this put Pakistaniat as a concept far more stronger than Iran or Turkey.
Secularism will even more strengthen it.Probably make it unbreakable for the centuries to come.

Other than this.

*Past centuries is no more and further breaking of country is also a past tense.Ethnicity is not being given much importance and is ignored by most of the world today.Or in short developed world.

Any country that come closer to 10k per capita income should be indirectly atleast considered a developed per capita wise.

Country like Pakistan,India,Bangladesh and even Afghanistan will most probably achieve the mark of 10k per capita income by 2028-30 or slightly earlier