Afghan law on restricting women's rights

[Diaphanous]

The new law that is being proposed, and has been passes by BOTH parliments is that no family members can be questioned by police or testify against a male family member regarding domestic abuse.
Now, due to outside forces, President Karzai has sent the law back to the Ministry of Justice to have the law amended.

In my opinion, this is morally and islamically wrong. Islam says that woman should not be beaten unless for real reasons, which include that the husband has to have told his wife not to do what she has been doing. If she does not listen, he must spend the night away from her. If she still does not listen, then, and only then does he have the haq to hit her. But as you all know, in Pashto culture, a man uses abuse to show his masculinity to the other men in the village. They feel that by not hitting thier wives, they will be looked at as not man enough. This is wrong. Therefore, this law is morally, legally and islamically wrong.
How can we, as muslims, as human beings, let this happen in our country? The western world will blame our religion on this, not understanding that for most people, culture is more important to follow than our religion, and that everything that is done, is either haram or advised against in Islam.

What do you think?
Samia

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

The new law that is being proposed, and has been passes by BOTH parliments is that no family members can be questioned by police or testify against a male family member regarding domestic abuse.
Now, due to outside forces, President Karzai has sent the law back to the Ministry of Justice to have the law amended.

In my opinion, this is morally and islamically wrong. Islam says that woman should not be beaten unless for real reasons, which include that the husband has to have told his wife not to do what she has been doing. If she does not listen, he must spend the night away from her. If she still does not listen, then, and only then does he have the haq to hit her. But as you all know, in Pashto culture, a man uses abuse to show his masculinity to the other men in the village. They feel that by not hitting thier wives, they will be looked at as not man enough. This is wrong. Therefore, this law is morally, legally and islamically wrong.
How can we, as muslims, as human beings, let this happen in our country? The western world will blame our religion on this, not understanding that for most people, culture is more important to follow than our religion, and that everything that is done, is either haram or advised against in Islam.

What do you think?
Samia

Do you have the draft law so we can look into it?

[DaZahroJaam.]

this is how i see it.
they can't separate women from the men in their families over domestic violence. eventually, those two individuals are going to end up under the same roof. be that a brother and sister or a husband and wife. what do you think is going to happen to that woman after that complaint is filed??

family members could not necessarily mean a wife testifying against a husband, it could mean a mother testifying against a son in a case that concerns a husband and wife and how often do you think that could happen??
this is where a father, brother or uncle could come in to picture...now you could say this sounds alot to what the taliban did buthonestly think about it. if you were married, you had someone represent you for this very reason and if your brother is beating you, i am sure there is someone in the family who could fix that issue before you taking it to the court. you can't a sister of an only brother in afghanistan and be subjected to abuse by him.

[Diaphanous]

But thats exactly it. if a woman is being abused by her husband, will his brothers, his mother, his sisters, his father say anything against him? no! because they will take his side, not the girl that came into the family. no matter what they say, families never consider a daughter-in-law as an actual family member, just someone they bought, like a slave, to do thier work and concieve children for them.
If a sister is being beaten by her brother or father, still not likely anyone will go against him. They will agree with that male member and say that he was right in hitting the girl/woman. And say that she was doing something that was either islamically or morally or culturally wrong. There will be no proof of her doing anything becuase no one will say anything about it.

[DaZahroJaam.]

in order for the government to start punishing people for doing things, it has to be deemed inappropriate by the society first. there has to be some education on it being wrong in the first place.
if sisters were allowed to take brothers to court for domestic abuse, do you thing much of afghan population would be outside jail??
if a woman wants to be seperated from her husband, their elders are going to sit together and discuss the matter regardless. but if she or any other woman who does not want to be seperated but still wants her husband in jail for beating her, do you think a brighter future awaits her in her in laws house, her own house or that of her parents?? it's just going to create more problems for her.
our society back there is not on the same scale as the west, we can't take the west's laws, apply them to afghans and expect them to work.

and why do you assume that karzai sent back that draft because of the pressure from the west?? we are willing to give more credit to the strangers than our own leaders. why are we always convinced that they are of no good?? karzai may not be the best out there but i am sure he is not a complete idiot.


and on a very personaland probably somewhat biased level i would like to mention that a woman who is incapable of preventing her husband or a brother from raising his hand on her is someone who has failed as a woman. a man can't be insane 24/7. you take you opportunity to make that man love you and then make sure he loves you right. women who tend to get beaten up happen to say the wrong things at the wrong time.

[khushal]

And you guys thought the Taliban are backwards. Most of you have very limited education or have very low IQ. No one can change a society over night. It takes decades if not centuries especially one that is as isolated as Afghanistan.

[Diaphanous]

This is the list of all afghan laws, i'm not sure if it has been listed here because it isn't a law yet. I am still trying to find a primary source for it, but so far it's only articles.

http://moj.gov.af/content/files/index.htm

[Diaphanous]

in order for the government to start punishing people for doing things, it has to be deemed inappropriate by the society first. there has to be some education on it being wrong in the first place.
if sisters were allowed to take brothers to court for domestic abuse, do you thing much of afghan population would be outside jail??
if a woman wants to be seperated from her husband, their elders are going to sit together and discuss the matter regardless. but if she or any other woman who does not want to be seperated but still wants her husband in jail for beating her, do you think a brighter future awaits her in her in laws house, her own house or that of her parents?? it's just going to create more problems for her.
our society back there is not on the same scale as the west, we can't take the west's laws, apply them to afghans and expect them to work.

and why do you assume that karzai sent back that draft because of the pressure from the west?? we are willing to give more credit to the strangers than our own leaders. why are we always convinced that they are of no good?? karzai may not be the best out there but i am sure he is not a complete idiot.


and on a very personaland probably somewhat biased level i would like to mention that a woman who is incapable of preventing her husband or a brother from raising his hand on her is someone who has failed as a woman. a man can't be insane 24/7. you take you opportunity to make that man love you and then make sure he loves you right. women who tend to get beaten up happen to say the wrong things at the wrong time.

Ok, I agree with we can't give all the credit to the westerners. There are still people in the afghan government that aren't corrupt and inhumane. But those people are few. When i say outside forces, I mean organizations made by afghans for afghans and afghans in the western worlds.

I also agree that a woman in her in-laws house does not have a better future with her husband in jail. But what man is going to allow divorce to a woman? What judge is going to allow that? What mullah is going to allow that? There are people who agree that women should have the right to divorce her husband if she is being abused and beaten by her husband, but the majority of society and the government does not believe that. They don't care if women are being beaten in every house. (I'm exaggerating a bit)

Now, that opinion of yours, i disagree with. I agree that maybe in today's world, it is more possible for a woman to stand up to her husband, but she can't stand up to all her in-laws. Plus, woman from the villages, they are raised to not question thier husbands and to take thieir husbands' words as the ultimate law. What can a woman who grew up in the villages of Paktia, Logar and Jalalabad do when she is being beaten by her husband. Especially with the values and teachings that have been instilled in her from birth.

[Diaphanous]

Khushal, when exactly have we said that we expect this change to happen overnight? we are only discussing what is happening and what is morally correct, and islamically.

[khushal]

that was not directed at you Diaphanous since your a new guy here. It was directed at the other members whose posts reveal their ignorance or flat out deception.

[Diaphanous]

oh ok. but anyways, what do you think? we would all love to hear your input on this issue

[DaZahroJaam.]

diaphnous, do you really believe that women in logar or jalalabad who lack the courage to question their husband's words have it in them to last long in our type of a society on their own for long? what do you think happens when their husbands return from jail??
instead of being victimized by one individual, they are going to be shunned off by their own own families/ the society or end up back in that very house where they will have to suffer from the consequences of that one mistake for the rest of their lives. they don't have the mental strength or the educational skills and abilities to last on their own. before we give them that sort of freedom, we have to make sure that they don't end up being stranded in the middle of no where with no solutions. meanwhile, we can focus on educating the men of their families from the parent's side as well as the husband's side to be more cautious of how they choose a future for them and to take an active role in it.
in the long run, sure women should have the right to stand up for themselves and make their own choices in life. in the short term, it will turn the entire situation in to a disaster.
and at the end of the day, we want things to work for them. i don't think a relationship between a wife and a husband is going to work very well after one of them have served time in jail because of the other. it's just going to create more anger and resentment between them. we need to have marriage counselors down there....
i was watching a documentary a few years ago on youtube. there were men who in anger had accused their wives of having babies that were not their own. they clearly state that they were angry and are visiting their wives in jail but because at some point they filled a report, those women as well as those children are locked up now. our laws are very very touchy. the only thing that will fix it is more education. you can send a senseless animal to a cage all you want, if it doesn't understand the reasons behind it, it will not make much difference to him. afghan men have enough issues with their egos as it is.

that was not directed at you Diaphanous since your a new guy here. It was directed at the other members whose posts reveal their ignorance or flat out deception.

do you have something to say to me, khushal??

[Diaphanous]

diaphnous, do you really believe that women in logar or jalalabad who lack the courage to question their husband's words have it in them to last long in our type of a society on their own for long? what do you think happens when their husbands return from jail??
instead of being victimized by one individual, they are going to be shunned off by their own own families/ the society or end up back in that very house where they will have to suffer from the consequences of that one mistake for the rest of their lives. they don't have the mental strength or the educational skills and abilities to last on their own. before we give them that sort of freedom, we have to make sure that they don't end up being stranded in the middle of no where with no solutions. meanwhile, we can focus on educating the men of their families from the parent's side as well as the husband's side to be more cautious of how they choose a future for them and to take an active role in it.
in the long run, sure women should have the right to stand up for themselves and make their own choices in life. in the short term, it will turn the entire situation in to a disaster.
and at the end of the day, we want things to work for them. i don't think a relationship between a wife and a husband is going to work very well after one of them have served time in jail because of the other. it's just going to create more anger and resentment between them. we need to have marriage counselors down there....
i was watching a documentary a few years ago on youtube. there were men who in anger had accused their wives of having babies that were not their own. they clearly state that they were angry and are visiting their wives in jail but because at some point they filled a report, those women as well as those children are locked up now. our laws are very very touchy. the only thing that will fix it is more education. you can send a senseless animal to a cage all you want, if it doesn't understand the reasons behind it, it will not make much difference to him. afghan men have enough issues with their egos as it is.





do you have something to say to me, khushal??

That is a good point. It always comes back to educating the afghan citizens. And we can try to bring change. But the reality is that unless the people themselves don't try, there is nothing we can do about it. It is hard because the society itself is uneducated and does whatever thier government wants them to. The educated people are all corrupt and in the government. It is almost impossible to get anything done. Now when i say all or something similar, i am just generalizing. I don't mean literally everybody, just most.

[khushal]

oh ok. but anyways, what do you think? we would all love to hear your input on this issue

I disagree with you on the point that men hit women to show masculinity to other men. There are many reason why the stronger sex hits the weaker one and this is not unique to the afghan society. This happens in all societies.

The difference is that certain societies have set up laws to protect the weaker sex. One must study how those societies accomplished such tasks. First, they made it practical for the weaker sex to support themselves. In a society where the weaker sex depends on the stronger sex for livelihood, then such laws, even if passed are not only useless but counterproductive as DZJ have already explained. But its more than education. The US have had an educated society for a long time but freedom for women took place just recently after WW2 when it became practical.
Men accepted women in the work place when it was necessary since most men were in either Europe or the pacific fighting the war and women were in factories making munitions for them.

[Diaphanous]

I disagree with you on the point that men hit women to show masculinity to other men. There are many reason why the stronger sex hits the weaker one and this is not unique to the afghan society. This happens in all societies.

The difference is that certain societies have set up laws to protect the weaker sex. One must study how those societies accomplished such tasks. First, they made it practical for the weaker sex to support themselves. In a society where the weaker sex depends on the stronger sex for livelihood, then such laws, even if passed are not only useless but counterproductive as DZJ have already explained. But its more than education. The US have had an educated society for a long time but freedom for women took place just recently after WW2 when it became practical.
Men accepted women in the work place when it was necessary since most men were in either Europe or the pacific fighting the war and women were in factories making munitions for them.

Ok, i agree with you that the domestic abuse is present in all societies. But it is more dominant in pashtun society. From what i have heard, the reasons that men in the villages near my own, including my village, hit their wives was to show masculinity.
What are the reasons men hit their wives, in pashtun culture, then?

Well in the case of women being accepted in the workplace, in the villages, women do all the work while men sit on their asses and drink chai and talk. That happens in most villages. I'm not talking about the educated people in the cities like Kabul, Mazar, Kandahar, Herat. I'm talking about the villages. But the abuse does happen in the cities too.