can AFG survive economically without USA?

[khushal]

This is pure idealism. Once upon a time there were Mughal Empires,British empires, German empires, Portuguese empires, Spanish empires, Arab empires and Pashtun were ruling India but a lot of water has passed under the bridge my brother.

The world is progressing from empires, kingdoms, sultanates, princely states to nation states , local governments and individual human rights.

The only failed states are Muslim or non democratic states. Non Muslim democratic states like India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Singapore, Japan are progressing with leaps and bounds.

India would be an economic superpower making the EU a banan republic if it was never partitioned and togethre with the asian stans, they would have been a magnate for the brightest minds and economic investments just like america is.
When you have indians begging for US and european jobs and citizenship, then in reality india is a failure. It is certainly not he utopia your making it out to be. Why do you think that the unpartitioned india was called the jewel of the british crown.

[khushal]

I am not relying on others, I am relying on our own government and expect from them that they can milk as much out of USA as they can. There is a fine line between being beneficial and relying on others.

Having faith in God is for afterlife. God will grant heaven in afterlife not this life. It is in only jewish belief that God will grant heaven in this place. So unless you're a jew, then don't use God in political discussion.

You mean the local will sort it out like back in the nineties. Where local warlords was in killing spree and woman got raped. Food poisoned and people kidnapped, tortured... Is that what you want for Afghanistan?

You keep telling me that they wont give money and keep putting words in my mouth by claiming I said USA wont gain anything. I thought you were smart enough to realize what kind of gain USA will have, but apparently I was wrong. To be precise I said USA wont have economical and military gain. I never claimed they wont have any gain at all.

Let me explain what kind of gain USA will have. USA invaded Afghanistan and now they have to finish the job. It is all for political reason. USA have spent trillions of $ in Afghanistan war, so basically if Afghanistan don't get functional, the USA will lose its political ground in terms of diplomacy. Diplomacy relies solely on your reputation and thats why Afghanistan's stability is important for them. Imagine a failed Afghanistan, how would USA look in the eyes of the world. Vietnam which was many years ago is like a scar for USA, imagine having Afghanistan as a scar as well.

USA already have bases in Pakistan and India. Pakistan is both neighbor to Iran and China. So all your guesses is basically wrong.

Afghanistan's GDP growth rate is more than 10%. The growth rate of Afghanistan is one of the highest in the world. If we continue like this, Afghanistan's GDP will be tripled in 10 years. Basically Afghan GDP per capita will be higher than that of Pakistan.

Come on man, your manipulating the numbers. Afghanistans GDP is purely Americans military spending. no wonder the great manipulator badlun agrees with you.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...99A0X120131011

America is in afghanistan because american corporations want to ensure your failure so they can dominate you. if america wanted to keep afghanistan stable then they would have worked with the taliban instead of deposing them.

[Tiger Khan]

I am not relying on others, I am relying on our own government and expect from them that they can milk as much out of USA as they can. There is a fine line between being beneficial and relying on others.

Having faith in God is for afterlife. God will grant heaven in afterlife not this life. It is in only jewish belief that God will grant heaven in this place. So unless you're a jew, then don't use God in political discussion.

You mean the local will sort it out like back in the nineties. Where local warlords was in killing spree and woman got raped. Food poisoned and people kidnapped, tortured... Is that what you want for Afghanistan?

You keep telling me that they wont give money and keep putting words in my mouth by claiming I said USA wont gain anything. I thought you were smart enough to realize what kind of gain USA will have, but apparently I was wrong. To be precise I said USA wont have economical and military gain. I never claimed they wont have any gain at all.

Let me explain what kind of gain USA will have. USA invaded Afghanistan and now they have to finish the job. It is all for political reason. USA have spent trillions of $ in Afghanistan war, so basically if Afghanistan don't get functional, the USA will lose its political ground in terms of diplomacy. Diplomacy relies solely on your reputation and thats why Afghanistan's stability is important for them. Imagine a failed Afghanistan, how would USA look in the eyes of the world. Vietnam which was many years ago is like a scar for USA, imagine having Afghanistan as a scar as well.

USA already have bases in Pakistan and India. Pakistan is both neighbor to Iran and China. So all your guesses is basically wrong.

Afghanistan's GDP growth rate is more than 10%. The growth rate of Afghanistan is one of the highest in the world. If we continue like this, Afghanistan's GDP will be tripled in 10 years. Basically Afghan GDP per capita will be higher than that of Pakistan.

Jesus man.. Afghanistan is at rock bottom off course its growth rate will be in double digits.. and it tappers of with time.. Also if having faith in God in this world makes a person Jew than I guess I am a Jew (According to your pretext). .

Also in real life (in practical life as well) if everyone was sure 100% before they made a move.. no one would make mistakes and no one would fail.. however, there is also God involved.. who decides the outcome of your smartest or dumbest move (If god makes your dumbest move correct world actually calls you a genius, while when your smart move is unsuccessful world calls you stupid). Bottom line is we can never be 100% sure of whatever we are doing would be successful.. God decides the outcome.. we just do our best..

Also Afghanistan's first objective should be to have peace.. Go ahead trust America.. and give them all the benefits of the doubt. Think about why they attacked Afg in the first place.. why they keep supporting minorities against majorities.. etc.. but go ahead make your own mistakes..

[Tiger Khan]

So you just want a civil war, where you think the locals will sort everything out? What if in this civil war Pashtuns will be the bigest loser? What will you do then? Or what if Afghanistan will be seperated in pieces?
Taliban will not stop, they want there power back, I hate the current goverment, but taliban are no better, most pashtuns here are just pro taliban becuase they are Pashtun, I bet if Taliban were majority Tajik or Hazara, almost everyone would have declared them the devils.

And no for US its not Zakat and Afghans know it too, but do they have a real choise? Its easy to speak when you yourself are living in your cosey kafir land safe and secure, but do you even think about the ordinary Afghan people? How much they will suffer if a civil war starts again?

Don't put words in my mouth.. I never said that I wanted a civil war (how old are you kid?)
I m guessing that there is going to be civil war.. and if united states stay there.. I am guessing Taliban will keep fighting.. Also Taliban's are still somewhat locals, however, Americans are totally outsiders..

Ideal situation is.. Taliban's declare unilateral cease fire.. Americans give proportionate representation to all ethnic and religious groups in the government and freakin adopt Afghanistan as their long lost son.. and create a sort of marshal plan for Afghanistan.. Pakistan and India signs an agreement that they would not use Afghanistan in their sick games.. Savvy?

[Khostai]

Don't put words in my mouth.. I never said that I wanted a civil war (how old are you kid?)
I m guessing that there is going to be civil war.. and if united states stay there.. I am guessing Taliban will keep fighting.. Also Taliban's are still somewhat locals, however, Americans are totally outsiders..

Ideal situation is.. Taliban's declare unilateral cease fire.. Americans give proportionate representation to all ethnic and religious groups in the government and freakin adopt Afghanistan as their long lost son.. and create a sort of marshal plan for Afghanistan.. Pakistan and India signs an agreement that they would not use Afghanistan in their sick games.. Savvy?

LoL calling me a kid when you ideal situation was not even aplayed to Europe after WWII

Taliban will keep fighting no matter what. Yes taliban are locals, so are your TTP, but why is your beloved Pakistan and you so against them? Why don't you let them join the goverment? Or give the right to aply there twisted sharia version.....

[Al-Afghani]

Come on man, your manipulating the numbers. Afghanistans GDP is purely Americans military spending. no wonder the great manipulator badlun agrees with you.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...99A0X120131011

America is in afghanistan because american corporations want to ensure your failure so they can dominate you. if america wanted to keep afghanistan stable then they would have worked with the taliban instead of deposing them.

In your fantasy world, the US should only give, give and give. But why do you never ask yourself the question, why was Mullah O. in all the 3 years since 1998 until 2001 very uncompromising with the US? Why did he not meet their demands (extradite OBL).

The invasion could have been averted, if we had normal, rational leaders (not idiots who think God appears to them in dreams).

A little bit of self criticism and self reflection is certainly not unwarranted for you and your kind.

[Tiger Khan]

LoL calling me a kid when you ideal situation was not even aplayed to Europe after WWII

Taliban will keep fighting no matter what. Yes taliban are locals, so are your TTP, but why is your beloved Pakistan and you so against them? Why don't you let them join the goverment? Or give the right to aply there twisted sharia version.....

I don't agree with the government.. so there goes that.. I don't think we should be negotiating with Taliban.. also.. I was talking about an ideal situation (hypothetically speaking).. when you see my few last comments I clearly stated that Talibans would not stop fighting and I do not see peace in a the near future.. If Americans stay talibans fight them, if Americans leave I expect a civil war.. hell, I think God has given up on Afghanistan..

THat said, I would really want peace for the children of aghanistan.. Afghanistan needs few generations without war..

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

[MENTION=8995]DSM0305[/MENTION]

it doesnt work so as you think

IMF estimates are based off 2010

For afghanistan average growth rate afghanistan is considered 9% and for Pakistan just 2.1% as these were the respective growths of each country back than in 2011

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...uture_GDP_(PPP)

Incase of Afghanistan even with 9% as an average it will take afghanistan 50 more years to reach less than 300Billion dollars

Incase of Pakistan it had already beaten the IMF prediction as they predicted growth rate of only 2% while we achieved 4.2% in 2012.This is the reason our GDP is 559billion dollars by now instead of the one predicted in 2010 as 520billion dollars.and the growth rate is all set to increase to 5% this year and beyond 7% after 2015.which even IMD has acknowledged

The growth your witnessing now is what Pakistan witnessed in the 60's.Our GDP in 60's was similar to what Afghanistan is today.

But such growth rate doesnt has a sustained future.Because of all the 30billion dollars of your GDP,10-15billion dollars is the american aid combined to the military and civilian govt.which is 1/3rd of even more of your Whole GDP...in pakistan case the 1.6billion dollars is not even 0.3% of the total GDP.

Once the Aid is struck you GDP growth might not even reverse but rather go negative.

This is the reason you need to better engage with your neighbours more be it Pakistan,Iran or Iran or china.

The above countries will contribute into your long term growth
Such as in Pakistan case=Hospitals,education institutes,roads,Dam, and related infra so is the similar case with India,iran and china.These countries will contribute to your long term growth rate.

While countries like USA will only contribute most of aid to Military this is what they did with Pakistan and will not contribute in the infra.

And the dream of getting higher GDP per capita will remain a dream so..

Pakistan uptil 1993 had the highest GDP per capita in south asia.
Replaced by sri lanka in 2014 and India in 2011..

but incase of India we will go along with them as last year we had higher growth rate than even India while the GDP per capita difference only is 100-200dollars.

if the afghan behavior toward its major neighbours like iran and pakistan remain so than i doubt you will ever become a major economy

today Iran and Pakistan are not the countries of 80's.today both of them can build dams,hospitals,industries,educational institutes or every possible infra project on their own.


Engage with them.

Even Pakistan can't proper without giving MFN status to india which i wish this govt will give inshAllah.Pakistan and india projected trade within the 5 years of MFN status given is estimated to be 25billion dollars.

[DSM0305]

Jesus man.. Afghanistan is at rock bottom off course its growth rate will be in double digits.. and it tappers of with time.. Also if having faith in God in this world makes a person Jew than I guess I am a Jew (According to your pretext). .

Also in real life (in practical life as well) if everyone was sure 100% before they made a move.. no one would make mistakes and no one would fail.. however, there is also God involved.. who decides the outcome of your smartest or dumbest move (If god makes your dumbest move correct world actually calls you a genius, while when your smart move is unsuccessful world calls you stupid). Bottom line is we can never be 100% sure of whatever we are doing would be successful.. God decides the outcome.. we just do our best..

Also Afghanistan's first objective should be to have peace.. Go ahead trust America.. and give them all the benefits of the doubt. Think about why they attacked Afg in the first place.. why they keep supporting minorities against majorities.. etc.. but go ahead make your own mistakes..

We need USA, because we are in rock bottom and need these 2 digit growth rate. If we weren't in rock bottom, we wouldn't be wanting them there to begin with. The fact is that those 2 digits growth rate will decline if USA leaves, and thats why we need Americans to stay for as long they help us economical and military.

I don't want to discuss religion and faith with you, so I leave it at that.

USA doesn't support minorities against majorities. They in matter of fact couldn't care less about the ethnicity. It is just plain bad luck that the insurgence are from the majority. It is known that if Taliban didn't/don't interfere with Pashtuns joining the government, then even today Afghanistan's government would have been dominated by Pashtuns.
All that ethnicity problem is just plain bad luck, nothing more and nothing less.

[khushal]

In your fantasy world, the US should only give, give and give. But why do you never ask yourself the question, why was Mullah O. in all the 3 years since 1998 until 2001 very uncompromising with the US? Why did he not meet their demands (extradite OBL).

The invasion could have been averted, if we had normal, rational leaders (not idiots who think God appears to them in dreams).

A little bit of self criticism and self reflection is certainly not unwarranted for you and your kind.

Those who tlhink the invasion was about OBL are purely to stupid to even discuss anything. If it was about OBL, they would have invaded pakistan where they admit they found him not to mention almost all the top AQ leaders were found in Pakistan and alsothe proliferation of nuclear weapons.

The invasion was about deposing a regime that could not be bought off. In your world, it is irrational to not bend over for a few bucks. Typical farswan thinking.

[khushal]

We need USA, because we are in rock bottom and need these 2 digit growth rate. If we weren't in rock bottom, we wouldn't be wanting them there to begin with. The fact is that those 2 digits growth rate will decline if USA leaves, and thats why we need Americans to stay for as long they help us economical and military.
.

It is unethical of you to assume that american tax payers should pay for the afghan economy especuially when the afghan economy is being robbed by a few elites. The region can easily take care of itself if it reorganizes itself.

If one seperates the united states into 50 different countries, each country would be a failure, the US is successful becasue it is one unit and not fifty different units trying to destroy each other. Think logical. If you want to create an america in afghanistan, then you must think like an american, the ones that made america what it is, not the average idiot american.

[DSM0305]

It is unethical of you to assume that american tax payers should pay for the afghan economy especuially when the afghan economy is being robbed by a few elites. The region can easily take care of itself if it reorganizes itself.

If one seperates the united states into 50 different countries, each country would be a failure, the US is successful becasue it is one unit and not fifty different units trying to destroy each other. Think logical. If you want to create an america in afghanistan, then you must think like an american, the ones that made america what it is, not the average idiot american.

So according to you it was ethical for Americans to invade Afghanistan, it was ethical of them to involve Afghanistan in the cold war, it was ethical of the British empire to divide Afghanistan, it was ethical of the British and Russian empire to land lock Afghanistan, but apparently it is unethical of Afghanistan to receive assistance so it can stand on it own...

Do you even know American history? American is, what it is today because of slaves. Todays American economy is based upon old days slaves, and is the sole reason why USA got such huge economy today.
If you want to use the same tactic Americans used, then you are 200 years late, because in todays world you cant use slaves in the same matter like back then.

[Shehbaz Khan]

if you think pakistan is a success story, then you obviously dont know what success means.

Khushal If you thought that I am giving you an example of Pakistan as a success story you were wrong .. Re-read what I wrote was 'Pakistan asked itself this question a few decades earlier. They thought they can't survive and look at them how well are they surviving. Learn!'

This meant that with US they aren't surviving at all.

[khushal]

Khushal If you thought that I am giving you an example of Pakistan as a success story you were wrong .. Re-read what I wrote was 'Pakistan asked itself this question a few decades earlier. They thought they can't survive and look at them how well are they surviving. Learn!'

This meant that with US they aren't surviving at all.

We dont need another pakistan, that was my point. We are better than that. Also pakistan is not doing all that well.

[khushal]

So according to you it was ethical for Americans to invade Afghanistan, it was ethical of them to involve Afghanistan in the cold war, it was ethical of the British empire to divide Afghanistan, it was ethical of the British and Russian empire to land lock Afghanistan, but apparently it is unethical of Afghanistan to receive assistance so it can stand on it own...

Do you even know American history? American is, what it is today because of slaves. Todays American economy is based upon old days slaves, and is the sole reason why USA got such huge economy today.
If you want to use the same tactic Americans used, then you are 200 years late, because in todays world you cant use slaves in the same matter like back then.

you are using a strawman fallacy here DSM. But begging the Brits, america and russia for Aid is not the way to go about for the contribution they made for the suffering of afghans. The right way to go about it is first stand on your feet and sue them for compensation. Take back what is rightfully yours the right way. Puppet governments are beggers not plaintifs. plaintifs represent their people, puppet governments represent their creators and sell their people.