can AFG survive economically without USA?

[khushal]

How they will come together? Do you include Iran in Middle East? Can you imagine an Iran with Saudi or Syria with Saudi in one federation or confederation? Even UAE will not join Saudi.

How Afghanistan will join Pakistan? In South Asia we have India and Bangladesh. Can you see them together? Central Asia was united under former USSR but why it broke? Or after the debacle they could form one federation.

they were together in the past for hundreds of years. your under the impression that history started when europeans came to the region. The whole of South asia was administered from cities like kabul, lahore, delhi.

The only feasible outcome is strong nation states and making organizations like SAARC, ECO, D-8, SCO more efficient and effective on the pattern of EU and ASEAN. For me there is no other way out in practical terms.

those exist. they are failures, they will always be failures because they are designed to fail.

[khushal]

Pakistan asked itself this question a few decades earlier. They thought they can't survive and look at them how well are they surviving. Learn!

if you think pakistan is a success story, then you obviously dont know what success means.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

if you think pakistan is a success story, then you obviously dont know what success means.

Pakistan was and infact is very much of a success story,

What do you mean by success?

If by success you mean no insurgency and all the related peace stuff than you do partially are right.

But incase of Pakistan.

Pakistan has provided its citizen safety from foriegn invasion from the past almost 7decades.

Civil war is infact something which cant be termed with failure because the ttp are pakistanis and not foriegn troops on our land.

And THe situation can't even here term pakistan a failure because we have the capability to handle them on our own without any help from any other country for the next 10 decades.

Look despite so much insurgency we grew by 4.2% this year(3.2% For india) and prediction about 2014 are 5% and beyond 7% onwards.
With the increase in GDP(Goldmansch term it to be a 400billion dollars GDP by 2020 which was considered in 2010 when the growth was less than 2%) but still with 400billion dollars our defence budget would be more like 10-15billion dollars and with this much budget we can handle the whole of afghan taliban let alone TTP)

By success in Pakistan case i mean

It has provided

*safety to its citizen from foriegn invasion
*Education
*Health sector(less developed but growing ofcourse pakistan is a poor country)
*a reowned status in the Muslim world
*a growing industry
*trying their level best to end the civil war
*a growing Economy
*Lifestyle is getting better and better with a GDP per capita only 2nd to sri lanka in south asia for 63 years since its independence


i mean what else one want?

TTP are pakistanis and not foriegn and we will have to deal differently with them.We can't even nuke them.

[HalloIsBack]

usa wastet 3 trillion dollars for their war in afghanistan with that money you could rebuild afghanistan 3 times.usa did nothing for afghanistan they dont brought peace and they dont brought stability.they brought 12 years war and occupation to afghanistan protected and supported opium-trade cant win or handle the war alone in afghanistan and some care about the little economy in afghanistan that is usa founded and payed by usa tax.

i would not say wasted
ok for afg they wasted the money but for usa it was not wasted money
how much lobby groups and ngos have earned money with war in afg?

[Tiger Khan]

What would USA motive be then? I mean if you don't believe me, then that means you got it figured out, or at least have a reasonable explanation for it.

Do you think Taliban will declare peace just because USA leaves? Lets be honest, Taliban will fight regardless of USA. So I wont buy that excuse.

It was part of our discussion because you said it was non-Pashtun of me to wanting, to milk the cow(USA)

No.. it was non-Pashtun of you of "relying on someone else".. and "not having faith in God".

I don't have an answer... but I do believe that as long as USA stays there Taliban will keep fighting.. however, if US leaves the locals will sort each other out and everything will get settled on equilibrium level (Off course subsequent to civil war).. but than you wont have an outsider tipping the balance, hence as stability will be indigenous it will last longer (hopefully)..

I think as long as US stays there.. war will continue.. .. however, if USA leaves (I do expect civil war right after that) however, later on things will settle on ethnic/religious lines..

You guys think that America will just keep giving you money (or you would keep milking the cow, so to speak).. I think no one is dumb, including Americans, why would they spend money till they do not know what they will gain in return... what do you think its all Zakat? and they are doing it for God..?!

Strategic location, Energy routs, Keeping a lid on Islamists, Having a presence close to central asia, shia iran and nuclear Pakistan. Have contingencies against China and Russia.. are few of my guesses.

Pakistan is making the same mistake (learn from Pakistan) Musharraf opened the gates of hell.. They got scared, they thought they can not survive without foreign help and they thought west in general and Americans in particular will help them/support them .. see what happened.. Pakistan is much weaker, is poorer and is ravaged by internal strife.. while Americans/outsiders have more influence on Pakistan then its own people.. also No one trusts Pakistan anymore.. (Internationally and internally)

[Khostai]

No.. it was non-Pashtun of you of "relying on someone else".. and "not having faith in God".

I don't have an answer... but I do believe that as long as USA stays there Taliban will keep fighting.. however, if US leaves the locals will sort each other out and everything will get settled on equilibrium level (Off course subsequent to civil war).. but than you wont have an outsider tipping the balance, hence as stability will be indigenous it will last longer (hopefully)..

I think as long as US stays there.. war will continue.. .. however, if USA leaves (I do expect civil war right after that) however, later on things will settle on ethnic/religious lines..

You guys think that America will just keep giving you money (or you would keep milking the cow, so to speak).. I think no one is dumb, including Americans, why would they spend money till they do not know what they will gain in return... what do you think its all Zakat? and they are doing it for God..?!

Strategic location, Energy routs, Keeping a lid on Islamists, Having a presence close to central asia, shia iran and nuclear Pakistan. Have contingencies against China and Russia.. are few of my guesses.

Pakistan is making the same mistake (learn from Pakistan) Musharraf opened the gates of hell.. They got scared, they thought they can not survive without foreign help and they thought west in general and Americans in particular will help them/support them .. see what happened.. Pakistan is much weaker, is poorer and is ravaged by internal strife.. while Americans/outsiders have more influence on Pakistan then its own people.. also No one trusts Pakistan anymore.. (Internationally and internally)

So you just want a civil war, where you think the locals will sort everything out? What if in this civil war Pashtuns will be the bigest loser? What will you do then? Or what if Afghanistan will be seperated in pieces?
Taliban will not stop, they want there power back, I hate the current goverment, but taliban are no better, most pashtuns here are just pro taliban becuase they are Pashtun, I bet if Taliban were majority Tajik or Hazara, almost everyone would have declared them the devils.

And no for US its not Zakat and Afghans know it too, but do they have a real choise? Its easy to speak when you yourself are living in your cosey kafir land safe and secure, but do you even think about the ordinary Afghan people? How much they will suffer if a civil war starts again?

[DSM0305]

No.. it was non-Pashtun of you of "relying on someone else".. and "not having faith in God".

I don't have an answer... but I do believe that as long as USA stays there Taliban will keep fighting.. however, if US leaves the locals will sort each other out and everything will get settled on equilibrium level (Off course subsequent to civil war).. but than you wont have an outsider tipping the balance, hence as stability will be indigenous it will last longer (hopefully)..

I think as long as US stays there.. war will continue.. .. however, if USA leaves (I do expect civil war right after that) however, later on things will settle on ethnic/religious lines..

You guys think that America will just keep giving you money (or you would keep milking the cow, so to speak).. I think no one is dumb, including Americans, why would they spend money till they do not know what they will gain in return... what do you think its all Zakat? and they are doing it for God..?!

Strategic location, Energy routs, Keeping a lid on Islamists, Having a presence close to central asia, shia iran and nuclear Pakistan. Have contingencies against China and Russia.. are few of my guesses.

Pakistan is making the same mistake (learn from Pakistan) Musharraf opened the gates of hell.. They got scared, they thought they can not survive without foreign help and they thought west in general and Americans in particular will help them/support them .. see what happened.. Pakistan is much weaker, is poorer and is ravaged by internal strife.. while Americans/outsiders have more influence on Pakistan then its own people.. also No one trusts Pakistan anymore.. (Internationally and internally)

I am not relying on others, I am relying on our own government and expect from them that they can milk as much out of USA as they can. There is a fine line between being beneficial and relying on others.

Having faith in God is for afterlife. God will grant heaven in afterlife not this life. It is in only jewish belief that God will grant heaven in this place. So unless you're a jew, then don't use God in political discussion.

You mean the local will sort it out like back in the nineties. Where local warlords was in killing spree and woman got raped. Food poisoned and people kidnapped, tortured... Is that what you want for Afghanistan?

You keep telling me that they wont give money and keep putting words in my mouth by claiming I said USA wont gain anything. I thought you were smart enough to realize what kind of gain USA will have, but apparently I was wrong. To be precise I said USA wont have economical and military gain. I never claimed they wont have any gain at all.

Let me explain what kind of gain USA will have. USA invaded Afghanistan and now they have to finish the job. It is all for political reason. USA have spent trillions of $ in Afghanistan war, so basically if Afghanistan don't get functional, the USA will lose its political ground in terms of diplomacy. Diplomacy relies solely on your reputation and thats why Afghanistan's stability is important for them. Imagine a failed Afghanistan, how would USA look in the eyes of the world. Vietnam which was many years ago is like a scar for USA, imagine having Afghanistan as a scar as well.

USA already have bases in Pakistan and India. Pakistan is both neighbor to Iran and China. So all your guesses is basically wrong.

Afghanistan's GDP growth rate is more than 10%. The growth rate of Afghanistan is one of the highest in the world. If we continue like this, Afghanistan's GDP will be tripled in 10 years. Basically Afghan GDP per capita will be higher than that of Pakistan.

[Badlun]

they were together in the past for hundreds of years. your under the impression that history started when europeans came to the region. The whole of South asia was administered from cities like kabul, lahore, delhi.



those exist. they are failures, they will always be failures because they are designed to fail.

This is pure idealism. Once upon a time there were Mughal Empires,British empires, German empires, Portuguese empires, Spanish empires, Arab empires and Pashtun were ruling India but a lot of water has passed under the bridge my brother.

The world is progressing from empires, kingdoms, sultanates, princely states to nation states , local governments and individual human rights.

The only failed states are Muslim or non democratic states. Non Muslim democratic states like India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Singapore, Japan are progressing with leaps and bounds.

[Shah-i-Kot]

This is pure idealism. Once upon a time there were Mughal Empires,British empires, German empires, Portuguese empires, Spanish empires, Arab empires and Pashtun were ruling India but a lot of water has passed under the bridge my brother.

The world is progressing from empires, kingdoms, sultanates, princely states to nation states , local governments and individual human rights.

The only failed states are Muslim or non democratic states. Non Muslim democratic states like India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Singapore, Japan are progressing with leaps and bounds.

When you hear the news about the continued economic collapse in the US/Europe, do you just block your ears?

Or do you pat yourself on your back, and say "they will recover like the good ol American/Europeans they are"

Wake up buddy, China is the new superpower.

[Badlun]

I am not relying on others, I am relying on our own government and expect from them that they can milk as much out of USA as they can. There is a fine line between being beneficial and relying on others.

Having faith in God is for afterlife. God will grant heaven in afterlife not this life. It is in only jewish belief that God will grant heaven in this place. So unless you're a jew, then don't use God in political discussion.

You mean the local will sort it out like back in the nineties. Where local warlords was in killing spree and woman got raped. Food poisoned and people kidnapped, tortured... Is that what you want for Afghanistan?

You keep telling me that they wont give money and keep putting words in my mouth by claiming I said USA wont gain anything. I thought you were smart enough to realize what kind of gain USA will have, but apparently I was wrong. To be precise I said USA wont have economical and military gain. I never claimed they wont have any gain at all.

Let me explain what kind of gain USA will have. USA invaded Afghanistan and now they have to finish the job. It is all for political reason. USA have spent trillions of $ in Afghanistan war, so basically if Afghanistan don't get functional, the USA will lose its political ground in terms of diplomacy. Diplomacy relies solely on your reputation and thats why Afghanistan's stability is important for them. Imagine a failed Afghanistan, how would USA look in the eyes of the world. Vietnam which was many years ago is like a scar for USA, imagine having Afghanistan as a scar as well.

USA already have bases in Pakistan and India. Pakistan is both neighbor to Iran and China. So all your guesses is basically wrong.

Afghanistan's GDP growth rate is more than 10%. The growth rate of Afghanistan is one of the highest in the world. If we continue like this, Afghanistan's GDP will be tripled in 10 years. Basically Afghan GDP per capita will be higher than that of Pakistan.

A very realistic picture of the scene. I could not say better than that. God out of politics, Afghanistan should get benefit of USA and USA is concerned with its image being a super power and I will add that USA cannot tolerate savages like Taliban on world scene.

USA has political interests in Afghanistan not economic. While Afghanistan can have both, defeating the non-state elements in the form of Taliban and can have economic benefits by keeping USA its development partner.

[Badlun]

When you hear the news about the continued economic collapse in the US/Europe, do you just block your ears?

Or do you pat yourself on your back, and say "they will recover like the good ol American/Europeans they are"

Wake up buddy, China is the new superpower.

Who is NO 1 today? USA
NO 2 is China but again its Non Muslim
NO 3 is Japan.
I have no problem with China as it is a totally capitalist economy. One day it will be full fledged democracy too. I have problems with idealism like Umma, Caliphates, Sultanetes, combining the whole South Asia or regions in one conglomerate.

USA and Europe have economic ups and downs but we are always down , never up. Still the cherished world for us is the West , not China to live and be a citizen.

[Shah-i-Kot]

No country can survive without USA, at least not sustain their current economic growth. Even China relies on USA to buy its goods, without USA chinas economy will collapse. The same goes for every country in the world. We live in a globalized world which USA have a monopoly over. Today every country is connected in terms of economy directly or indirectly with USA.

This is actually flat out wrong. Several years ago, China needed the US for trade more than the US needed China. However, now China has superseded the US as the largest trading partner of world countries.

China overtakes US in world trade | Business | theguardian.com


The US can no longer survive without China trade, but China being the largest trading partner of the world, now can drop the US if they wanted.

The US/European economies in their state of recession depend largely on the will/whims of private banks (like Goldmansachs who have no loyalty to any nation). Goldmansachs has already opened up huge operation centers in Beijing.

Its a new and multipolar world. The US/Europe is in decline economically and militarily.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Who is NO 1 today? USA
NO 2 is China but again its Non Muslim
NO 3 is Japan.
I have no problem with China as it is a totally capitalist economy. One day it will be full fledged democracy too. I have problems with idealism like Umma, Caliphates, Sultanetes, combining the whole South Asia or regions in one conglomerate.

USA and Europe have economic ups and downs but we are always down , never up. Still the cherished world for us is the West , not China to live and be a citizen.

Im questioning the validity of your claims here which are flat out false, not getting into some debate on religion.

Please read above post too to answer the rest of what you are saying.

The US is not number 1 anymore. This ignoring of the facts demonstrates how ideologically driven you are that you will even wish away reality.
In fact, the US is in financial debt to China also.

I suggest you start absorbing the hard facts. There is nothing wrong in saying you prefer the US to be number 1 because of your ideology. Thats your opinion. However, it is pointless to put out false info, especially for your own future sanity. It doesnt stop the wheels of time and the global trend.

[DSM0305]

This is actually flat out wrong. Several years ago, China needed the US for trade more than the US needed China. However, now China has superseded the US as the largest trading partner of world countries.

China overtakes US in world trade | Business | theguardian.com


The US can no longer survive without China trade, but China being the largest trading partner of the world, now can drop the US if they wanted.

The US/European economies in their state of recession depend largely on the will/whims of private banks (like Goldmansachs who have no loyalty to any nation). Goldmansachs has already opened up huge operation centers in Beijing.

Its a new and multipolar world. The US/Europe is in decline economically and militarily.

Do you even read your own sources? Here is a quote from it:
The landmark total for Chinese trade indicates the extent of Beijing's dependence on the rest of the world to generate jobs and income compared with a US economy that remains twice the size, and more self-contained. The US economy is worth $15tn compared with the $7.3tn Chinese economy.

The deficit in goods was more than $700bn compared with China's 2012 trade surplus, measured in goods, which totalled $231.1bn

You have to realize that USA is still worlds superpower and it will remains so for many years.

[Badlun]

Im questioning the validity of your claims here which are flat out false, not getting into some debate on religion.

Please read above post too to answer the rest of what you are saying.

The US is not number 1 anymore. This ignoring of the facts demonstrates how ideologically driven you are that you will even wish away reality.
In fact, the US is in financial debt to China also.

I suggest you start absorbing the hard facts. There is nothing wrong in saying you prefer the US to be number 1 because of your ideology. Thats your opinion. However, it is pointless to put out false info, especially for your own future sanity. It doesnt stop the wheels of time and the global trend.

Just you say China is NO 1 it does not become NO 1. If China is NO 1 in 2023 , is not something worrisome for me because they work on my ideology. China is more Kafir than USA being an atheist or non religious country.

My issue is mixing religion with economy and in this regards China is the same for me as US . China and US have the same ideology in economic sphere so for me both are the same. None is religious bigot.

China may be NO1 in foreign trade but not in economy. China is NO1 in population , may be in other things too but not in Economy, military, world politics, culture, movies, world influence etc. China is like a rich shopkeeper but not chief of the village.

Read the following please. Not a single one is Muslim. NO 1 is USA and the rest positions are mainly occupied by Europeans. China has 9 trillion while USA has 16.2. There is a very big difference between 9 and 16.

#10. India – GDP $2 trillion
India's booming economy is on the rise, with an average growth rate of 7% annually since 1997. India's major industries are agriculture, and services –especially in information technology and the outsourcing of business from other countries.
#9. Italy – GDP $2.1 trillion
Italy's very diversified economy relies on its industrial sectors for his high per capita GDP. Italy also benefits from membership in several groups of the wealthiest economoies, including the Group of Eight (G8) and European Union (EU).
#8. Russia – GDP $2.2 trillion
After the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia made big changes to its economy. It privatized most of its industries and made the economy more globally integrated and market-oriented. These reforms have led, in part, to Russia's rise on the list of largest economies. Of course the fact that they are the leading oil producer in the world doesn't hurt.
#7. United Kingdom – GDP $2.4 trillion
The UK comes in at No. 7 in largest economies due to their healthy agriculture, electronics and manufacturing industries. England has long been considered a leading financial and political power in Europe.
#6. Brazil – GDP $2.5 trillion
Brazil is South America's largest economy due to the country's strength in agriculture, mining, manufacturing, and service. Brazil is also the second biggest economy in the western hemisphere.
#5. France – GDP $2.7 trillion
France has long been one of the most developed and wealthiest economies in the world, and this year clocks in at 5th. More than 30 of the world's 500 biggest companies are French and the country is considered one of the best places to locate the headquarters of Fortune Global 500 companies.
#4. Germany – GDP $3.6 trillion
Germany has Europe's largest national economy, and is considered to be the second largest exporter in the world. Germany's economic strengths lie in automotive, electric equipment. Pharmaceuticals, and computers, among others
#3. Japan – GDP $ 5.1 trillion
Japan has long been regarded as one of the most technologically advanced economies in the world with its major contributions in the industrial and electronic sectors. Japan also benefits from robust business in automotive, semiconductors, and processed foods, among other industries. While Japan's agricultural industry is fairly small, it is the most profitable in the world.
#2. China – GDP $9.0 trillion
China's shift to a market-oriented economy has buoyed its growth and rise to one of the largest economies in the world. China is the fastest growing economy with average annual growth rates of 10%. The Chinese are the largest exporters in the world. If China stays on pace and current trends in other economies continue, China will overtake the US as the world's top economy in a decade, if not a few years sooner.
#1. USA – GDP $16.2 trillion
The United States has been the world's largest economy for at least a century. One third of the world's millionaires and 40% of the worlds billionaires live in the United States, making it the wealthiest nation in the world. The diversity of the US's economy as well as its reputation for superior products helps the economy remain the strongest. The US is the largest manufacturer in the world, producing a fifth of the entire world's manufacturing output.
The US's major industries include petroleum, mining, food processing, aerospace, and information technology. The U.S. is also considered to be the most influential and largest financial markets in the world. The US's economic growth rate is 2.2% annually.

The 10 Largest Economies in the World | Celebrity Net Worth