can AFG survive economically without USA?

[khushal]

salam,

ok, thanks everyone! i read all of your posts (took me a while lol)

yesterday, i had another discussion with that guy, and he accepted some of your arguments, but not all of them.

he further said:

1- when the americans were in helmand 50 years ago orso, it was prospering ("the little america").....don't we want prosperity?

2- the general population of AFG is illiterate, and doesn't know whats good and bad for them. this BSA is a bitter pill that we need to push down their throat, for their own well being.

3- america IS the world... nobody else matters. cutting relations with america is cutting relations with the world. if we cut military ties with america, they'd cut economic relations with us.

4- the person with money rules the world. in AFG, we are so poor, an Afghan dentist still removes teeth with a plier! we don't have medicines. poverty. if we cut relations with the strongest economy in the world, they will bully us forever and never allow us to prosper.

5- even if anti-US people start to rule AFG, the US will put economic embargo's on us, like they did in Iraq - and millions will starve!!!

6- if US pulls out of AFG, a powervacuum will be created, they will still rule our airspace and drone our villages, like they do in pakhtunkhwa. its true that they still do this, but now, at least we can restrict them with the BSA.

7- if the US pulls out, there are taliban, hizb islami, nothern alliance, hazaras, current warlords, who will spill blood over territory. AFG will be LOOTED. homes will be looted, offices will be looted, women will get raped, nothing will function. AFG infrastructure will be broken again, our people will die, technocrats will flee.........the country will go back to stone age.

8- the armed opposition, has NO experience in state building, international relations, political bureaucracy, economics, engineering etc, so they cannot run a country at all.... AFG will be a pariah state.

9- karzai said, the US forces WILL NOT ENTER afghan homes, they will not kill afghan civilians, they will bring peace, they will hand over afghan prisoners from guantanamo. this is part of the BSA contract. the official draft is changing. it's not final. if they do enter afghan homes, or kill civilians, the BSA will be annulled!!!!

he said, our friendship with america is "zahiri". in reality, we hate them! it's just that we still need them....the moment we stand on our own feet, we'll cancel the BSA.

your thoughts?

who is that guy?
wrora, pa koom ze ke prot ye?

Your guy is basically repeating what Daud realized was a failed endevor before his death. He also thought that afghans interests lied with the soviets, to try to use the to build the afghan state up because of superior soviet engineering and resources.
We all know how that ended up which basically says that your guy lacks knowledge in history.

[Tiger Khan]

your so independent Pakistan are so prosporously ...you people can´t even feed 10 families without US ...

Dude.. I know Pakistan.. I think its in a **** hole as well for similar reason.. but this thread is not about Pakistan.. Genius

[Tiger Khan]

Stop acting stupid. I hope for you own sake, that you didn't mean what you just said. Every person will question your intelligence, if this is your honest opinion. I mean one thing is to be against the USA staying in Afghanistan, but restricting yourself from facing reality is just plain stupid.

Your comment may be useful to educate kindergarten student and motivate them to be something big in the future, but it is just stupidity in regarding politics and nation building.

Every person is helping himself, especially afghans. In the end reality stays reality and Afghanistan condition isn't ind any shape to stay on its own feet.

Afghanistan doesnt have money for military, police, education, industry, crime tackling, hospitals etc.
It is just the reality and it will stay this way regardless of what Afghans do. Without some sort of foreign assistance, Afghanistan's infrastructure and the situation itself will not get improved even after 1000 years.

Afghanistan is in a situation right now, that requires foreign assistance. How long it takes for Afghanistan to be back on it feet depends on how much assistance we will get.

Being dramatic and philosophic wont help even a bit. The only thing that will help Afghanistan is to realize its situation and accept facts/reality. It is sad, but true.

Keep believing whatever you believe in.. but if you do that you would always be influenced and used by countries such as Pakistan, India, USA, and others.. No one is helping you because they "love" you.. you have to realize that.. Pakistan had made a mistake of siding with US which was far away versus its neighbors.. whom they had to deal with all the time.. Believe me countries (Muslim ones) are better of having US as an enemy than a friend.. Americas friendship is more expensive..

Look at Pakistan.. we know that it can survive without western aid.. because that aid never makes it to the poor or the ones who needs it.. it only results in additional debt for the country.. If Pakistan stops taking Aid, initially it may be harder, but with time you would have a more independent and self reliant country..

Reliance on others is a very non-Pashtun of you..

Look at Pakistan's relationship with USA,,, I look at it as "Cheap ***** and pimp relationship". USA gives it peanuts compare to what it takes in return, it slaps it around whenever it wants.. yet Pakistan keeps going back to its pimp.. Also because of blind alliance with US, our relationship with China, KSA etc is also threatened.

Call me philosophical.. but I believe poverty is not a bad thing.. however, nations who take it upon themselves to change their situation always are successful in the long term..

[Zazai]

who is that guy?
wrora, pa koom ze ke prot ye?

Your guy is basically repeating what Daud realized was a failed endevor before his death. He also thought that afghans interests lied with the soviets, to try to use the to build the afghan state up because of superior soviet engineering and resources.
We all know how that ended up which basically says that your guy lacks knowledge in history.

he's an old classmate, that basically went on to do his Masters in International Relations.

according to his logic, back in the days, we had two superpowers, US and USSR.... afg sided with one super power.... but now, it's AFG vs, the entire world. the UN gave unanimous approval to invade AFG....by standing up (which they normally don't do very often).

so yeah, i told him, that at the end of the day, it all comes down to priorities. if a person's priority lies in having infrastructure and worldly progress, at the expense of his religion, independence and freedom, then he sides with the colonialists. if he wants worldly progress, but not at the expense of his religion and independence, then he sides with the opposition.

i also said to him:

i won't have any issues with you, IF you said: look, colonialism is good for us, we are slaves, we sell our country and sacrifice our religion and culture, like our father Shah Shujja did for the sake of prosperity, because our prosperity depends on USA.

but i don't accept you saying: i'm the son of Ahmad Shah baba, Akbar Khan, and Malalai. i'm proud our forefathers kicked out the Brits, the USSR.... we will never accept occupation, we are not occupied.... but i want to give USA permanent military bases!

you're either here or there.

if anyone could go through the 9 points one by one, so i can clarify this to him better, i'd appreciate it.

the thing is, this is the average approach of most supporters of the BSA. if we can refute them, we'll have a stronger case to argue.

[randolph85]

No! We don´t have an own economy. We don´t own an industry. We don´t own cars, tanks, weapons and even the Internet is brought from outside paid by US money. Without US unemployment will rise to 80%, streets will turn back to battlefields, the number of refugees will increase this time more than before. US is the main financer of Afghanistan.

and despite this aid, the afghan government installed by the US has failed to utilize this money to form even a semblance of an indigenous economy besides customs revenues which was the main source of taliban income in the past. what were our exports last year? like 400 million? this is after 12 years of being occupied by our supreme super power overlord and their super friends, countless billions being poured into the country. that is simply pathetic. mind you, this is with the inclusion in the past 12 years of so called afghan experts and professionals which we all thought would actually help afghanistan.

i don't know why you have a fixation of civil war in "the streets" when today the US is killing afghans be it taliban or civilian out in the dirt roads. the civil war never ended, it started in the countryside and spread to the cities and now its back to the countryside.

you all support the US occupation but basically admit that we are being economically blackmailed into accepting occupation.

[DSM0305]

Keep believing whatever you believe in.. but if you do that you would always be influenced and used by countries such as Pakistan, India, USA, and others.. No one is helping you because they "love" you.. you have to realize that.. Pakistan had made a mistake of siding with US which was far away versus its neighbors.. whom they had to deal with all the time.. Believe me countries (Muslim ones) are better of having US as an enemy than a friend.. Americas friendship is more expensive..

Look at Pakistan.. we know that it can survive without western aid.. because that aid never makes it to the poor or the ones who needs it.. it only results in additional debt for the country.. If Pakistan stops taking Aid, initially it may be harder, but with time you would have a more independent and self reliant country..

Reliance on others is a very non-Pashtun of you..

Look at Pakistan's relationship with USA,,, I look at it as "Cheap ***** and pimp relationship". USA gives it peanuts compare to what it takes in return, it slaps it around whenever it wants.. yet Pakistan keeps going back to its pimp.. Also because of blind alliance with US, our relationship with China, KSA etc is also threatened.

Call me philosophical.. but I believe poverty is not a bad thing.. however, nations who take it upon themselves to change their situation always are successful in the long term..

You really need to learn something about politics, economy etc. I have said it several times in this forum, and wrote what politics is and how to benefit it. I don't want to repeat myself again.
USA gain nothing in this matter. The gain they get is not economical nor military. In the other hand Afghanistan's gain is both economical and military. It is win win situation for Afghanistan.

Pakistan is a slave country but at least they are strong enough to control Afghanistan. So it is very bad example you gave. If it wasn't for USA Pakistan would have lost halve of it territory to Afghanistan long time ago.

Regarding being ''Pashtun''. Maybe you have been sleeping in the last 60 years, today in Pakistan, India being ''Pashtun'' means that you are an uneducated, uncivilized, criminal person. That what being ''Pashtun'' is today. Go look at commercials, comedy, stereotypes etc. and see how people looks at so called ''Pashtun way''. Pakistan and India look at us and consider us like clowns. I can show you thausands of videos, articles etc and show you what Pashtuns are reduced to, but I do not wish to insult Pahstuns.

I cant speak for you, but I want old stereotype of Pashtun, brave, strong, influential, born leaders, regional power etc. And you cant archive those traits by living in stone age and being blind to what benefits you.

You are not being philosophical, but just plain stupid. Who in the gods name thinks poverty is a good thing... There is a huge difference between ''thinking'' something is good and knowing. Here is an example: I ''think'' if I jump out of the window, I will be able to fly. Just because I ''think'' I can fly, doesn't mean I can.

[Badlun]

and despite this aid, the afghan government installed by the US has failed to utilize this money to form even a semblance of an indigenous economy besides customs revenues which was the main source of taliban income in the past. what were our exports last year? like 400 million? this is after 12 years of being occupied by our supreme super power overlord and their super friends, countless billions being poured into the country. that is simply pathetic. mind you, this is with the inclusion in the past 12 years of so called afghan experts and professionals which we all thought would actually help afghanistan.

i don't know why you have a fixation of civil war in "the streets" when today the US is killing afghans be it taliban or civilian out in the dirt roads. the civil war never ended, it started in the countryside and spread to the cities and now its back to the countryside.

you all support the US occupation but basically admit that we are being economically blackmailed into accepting occupation.

It means the picture is very much gloomy. In spite of US huge aid still we could not do anything. We are then a total failure. On our own before US we could do nothing and even now with US financing still we have nothing. We were failure and we are a failure?

Is there any hope? Or we will be a disaster for the coming centuries also? At least with foreign aid we could have produced some good results!

[khushal]

It means the picture is very much gloomy. In spite of US huge aid still we could not do anything. We are then a total failure. On our own before US we could do nothing and even now with US financing still we have nothing. We were failure and we are a failure?

Is there any hope? Or we will be a disaster for the coming centuries also? At least with foreign aid we could have produced some good results!

For the first time you are correct Badlun. All the istans and the nations in the middle east are designed to fail. None of them can function as independent nations, they must come together as they have in the past. In its most propserous times in history, the middle east have always been administered as one unit and so has south and central asia.

you can debate the hell out of it, and the conclusion would be that neither afghanistan nor pakistan or the the other istans can prosper alone, they would always be failures.

[Tiger Khan]

You really need to learn something about politics, economy etc. I have said it several times in this forum, and wrote what politics is and how to benefit it. I don't want to repeat myself again.
USA gain nothing in this matter. The gain they get is not economical nor military. In the other hand Afghanistan's gain is both economical and military. It is win win situation for Afghanistan.

Pakistan is a slave country but at least they are strong enough to control Afghanistan. So it is very bad example you gave. If it wasn't for USA Pakistan would have lost halve of it territory to Afghanistan long time ago.

Regarding being ''Pashtun''. Maybe you have been sleeping in the last 60 years, today in Pakistan, India being ''Pashtun'' means that you are an uneducated, uncivilized, criminal person. That what being ''Pashtun'' is today. Go look at commercials, comedy, stereotypes etc. and see how people looks at so called ''Pashtun way''. Pakistan and India look at us and consider us like clowns. I can show you thausands of videos, articles etc and show you what Pashtuns are reduced to, but I do not wish to insult Pahstuns.

I cant speak for you, but I want old stereotype of Pashtun, brave, strong, influential, born leaders, regional power etc. And you cant archive those traits by living in stone age and being blind to what benefits you.

You are not being philosophical, but just plain stupid. Who in the gods name thinks poverty is a good thing... There is a huge difference between ''thinking'' something is good and knowing. Here is an example: I ''think'' if I jump out of the window, I will be able to fly. Just because I ''think'' I can fly, doesn't mean I can.

So you are assuming that USA doesn't gain anything from this?.. That USA does not have any ulterior motives? That USA would be helping Afghanistan because they just love afghans? Ok.. and I am stupid!..

Now lets talk about USA and Taliban?,, be realistic.. do you think you can stop Taliban from fighting (I agree that what Afghanistan needs right now is peace).. but do you think that Taliban would just declare peace unilaterally.?? yet I am the one being stupid?

As far as your comments about stereotyping of Pashtuns in Pakistan.. how is that part of our discussion?"? and how is that relevant? so although I am stupid.. I wont respond to this.. (even though I might agree with it)

[DSM0305]

So you are assuming that USA doesn't gain anything from this?.. That USA does not have any ulterior motives? That USA would be helping Afghanistan because they just love afghans? Ok.. and I am stupid!..

Now lets talk about USA and Taliban?,, be realistic.. do you think you can stop Taliban from fighting (I agree that what Afghanistan needs right now is peace).. but do you think that Taliban would just declare peace unilaterally.?? yet I am the one being stupid?

As far as your comments about stereotyping of Pashtuns in Pakistan.. how is that part of our discussion?"? and how is that relevant? so although I am stupid.. I wont respond to this.. (even though I might agree with it)

What would USA motive be then? I mean if you don't believe me, then that means you got it figured out, or at least have a reasonable explanation for it.

Do you think Taliban will declare peace just because USA leaves? Lets be honest, Taliban will fight regardless of USA. So I wont buy that excuse.

It was part of our discussion because you said it was non-Pashtun of me to wanting, to milk the cow(USA)

[Badlun]

For the first time you are correct Badlun. All the istans and the nations in the middle east are designed to fail. None of them can function as independent nations, they must come together as they have in the past. In its most propserous times in history, the middle east have always been administered as one unit and so has south and central asia.

you can debate the hell out of it, and the conclusion would be that neither afghanistan nor pakistan or the the other istans can prosper alone, they would always be failures.

How they will come together? Do you include Iran in Middle East? Can you imagine an Iran with Saudi or Syria with Saudi in one federation or confederation? Even UAE will not join Saudi.

How Afghanistan will join Pakistan? In South Asia we have India and Bangladesh. Can you see them together? Central Asia was united under former USSR but why it broke? Or after the debacle they could form one federation.

The only feasible outcome is strong nation states and making organizations like SAARC, ECO, D-8, SCO more efficient and effective on the pattern of EU and ASEAN. For me there is no other way out in practical terms.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

How they will come together? Do you include Iran in Middle East? Can you imagine an Iran with Saudi or Syria with Saudi in one federation or confederation? Even UAE will not join Saudi.

How Afghanistan will join Pakistan? In South Asia we have India and Bangladesh. Can you see them together? Central Asia was united under former USSR but why it broke? Or after the debacle they could form one federation.

The only feasible outcome is strong nation states and making organizations like SAARC, ECO, D-8, SCO more efficient and effective on the pattern of EU and ASEAN. For me there is no other way out in practical terms.

A new Economic block should be formed bypassing the arab league

Pakistan-Afghanistan-iran-turkey-central asian states

And if possible even include India and than bangladesh later.

[Khostai]

A new Economic block should be formed bypassing the arab league

Pakistan-Afghanistan-iran-turkey-central asian states

And if possible even include India and than bangladesh later.

The ego and pride of those countries is just to big. They all want to be rulers and not equal parthners, especialy Turkey and Iran, the other small stans can begin with working toghether and maybe the biger one will join later....
like in Europe the first close working relation began with 3 smal countries, Belgium Luxemburg and the Netherlands.

[Badlun]

A new Economic block should be formed bypassing the arab league

Pakistan-Afghanistan-iran-turkey-central asian states

And if possible even include India and than bangladesh later.

ECO already exists but like SAARC it is not efficient and effective on the pattern of EU or ASEAN.

[Shehbaz Khan]

Pakistan asked itself this question a few decades earlier. They thought they can't survive and look at them how well are they surviving. Learn!