can AFG survive economically without USA?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

salam,

i was discussing this with some relatives of mine, but i need some good/logical/academical reasons/answers:

1- CAN afghanistan survice economically, without the USA? How? Who is going to fund the schools, hospitals, constructions, security forces (without which the country would turn into an anarchy), ....millions of people work in offices that r funded by US dollars. Will the afghan economy collapse again, and will thousands starve to death and become refugees in Pak and Iran, like during the Taliban? do any of the anti-USA people have an economic policy, which we can look at and analyse?

2- What if another decade long civil war breaks out? looting, murder, raping etc, will become the norm. It has happened before, why wouldn't this happen again?

i don't want answers like, "we trust in God", because the person i'm discussing wants "academic", tangible answers. thanks

Wasalam,

I don't think God even needs us to raise his name in the equation except in the context of the fabric of Afghan culture. Rather, let us boil this down to a few tangible issues:

1) Gains
2) Deficits
3) Arc of history
a) Globally
b) Afghan centric

So if we examine history, with the exception of the fabricated history of Cyrus the Persian being the completely benevolent King, and maybe Alexander to some degree in the East - there are not examples in history where one "milks the cow" as everyone here is saying, without the cow taking a s-hit on your land and also eating your grass.

What I mean by this is that all the great Western powers and their inheritors - The Spaniards, French, Germans, Romans before them, Britania, Russia, and the US have a slew of case studies to examine regarding what happens when they occupy developing regions.

Let us examine the supposed gains first
1) - Involvement in the global economy and development of local infrastructure.

Through nearly a decade and a half of occupation we see cooked books and infrastructure that falls apart due to mismanagement by the very people that claimed that they were the best Afghans and the smartest Afghans that would return and "civilize" their people forcibly. They talk about improved morbidity, mortality, and survival but forget to point out that the weight of that is in urban centers.

Mother Jones's new report shows examples of how these zoot suit Afghans are failing their people while, like Marie Antionette, focusing on attending lavish wedding ceremonies and to show off their "khanthope."

US Spent Billions on Afghan Projects That Will Fall Apart When We Leave | Mother Jones

Qayum Karzai himself admitted that the contractor model has resulted in faulty construction and poorly sustainable products... yet he was very active in lobbying for these very same contracts for friends and acquaintances.

Protection from other state actors

This by far is the stupidest reason put forth by Western Afghans to justify their uncles and fathers getting interpreter paychecks. They are focused specifically on Pakistan when they make this comment and secondarily on Iran. A part of their proposed equation makes it seem as if the US shows solidarity this will ensure continued Indian investment will transform into hard and soft power combinations to offset Pakistan.

The reality is far different. Pakistan has shelled Kunar and other regions to its heart's delight. It has been caught via satellite imagery supposedly of army contingents giving arms, aid, and refuge to rebels. Their primary adversary was located in Abbotabad, their secondary adversaries have all been turned over or killed in Pakistani cities. Pakistan's intelligence agency and military have folks in them that collaborate and offer crucial intelligence to the West. Yet despite this, minimal action or aid cuts have been made. Rather, aid was sustained with a minor percentage being cut out and then returned.

So Karzai thinks, like the girlfriend of the Mafia Don, that the Mafia Don will slap the other girlfriend for her if she gets it in writing. His condition in the BSA apparently tries to tie the US into armed action and collaboration in open military conflict with states like Pakistan should they encroach on Afghan sovereignty. This was similar to the President of Georgia's move when he tried to get recognition in NATO to obligate powers to intervene against Russia if armed incursions occur. We see where that went.

Recent history regarding the Iraq War, conflicts along the Turkish border (patriot systems), etc. show that the US does what it wants. The Geneva Convention flouting is the most powerful example of how, despite a worldwide legal precedent existing, the lawmakers have no issue with being lawbreakers if it suits their interests.

The US Constitution makes US Warmaking contingent on Congressional Approval without any ifs, ands, or buts. No BSA can trump that. And Pakistan is also not powerful enough or stupid enough to initiate regular uniformed territorial acquisition. That would go against its current parasitic survival paradigm which goes like this: America pays for NATO supply lines and for arming the Pakistani military as well as for other military benefits... that money makes its way into military and feudal hands. Its the perfect symbiosis for sustaining a failing country - the poor get whacked and killed, the military gets more goodies, and the elite keep their nation on life support and rake off a good sum.

Here is an article that shows this:
"NBC reports this morning that a small group of senators led by Jeff Merkley (D) of Oregon are seeking an amendment to the annual defense spending bill that would require a congressional vote on extending the US presence in Afghanistan. Pentagon Comptroller Robert Hale told a Senate committee last year that the cost per US troop in Afghanistan topped $800,000. Assuming 10,000 troops, that's $8 billion a year before costs for "equipping and sustaining" Afghan troops. The Afghan National Army currently has about 190,000 people. The US military currently has about 40,000 soldiers in Afghanistan."
Karzai tells Afghan loya jirga that US not to be trusted - CSMonitor.com


Here is a nice article about South Korea to show how even when a STRONG BSA is in place, the US ended up removing financial support in the late 90s during South Korea's time of need and also forced IMF conditionality (forced loans) to indebt Korea.

"By the early 2000’s, then, the main political, economic, and military underpinnings for the Cold War alliance between the U.S. and South Korea had all been undermined. But the U.S. still maintains its military presence—and it is this military presence that serves as the lightening rod for anti-Americanism in Korea."

JPRI Working Paper No. 93

2) Deficits

Immunity in criminal prosecution.

Okinawa and South Korea have clear cut cases in the last decade of instances of rape, murder, abuse etc that they could not prosecute. Despite now being decades out from the initial conflict Okinawans could not get the proverbial cow to leave their lands even after milking it.

1995 Okinawa rape incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the article above we can see what happened to Tanaka when he simply wanted to move the bases.

To add embarrassment to all of this look at how "the cow" reverse milked the farmer when the okinawans made enough noise to try and get the bases removed:
Japan to pay $3.1bn to remove US troops from Okinawa, will host spy drones ? RT News

Basically the Japanese ended up footing the bill to the tune of BILLIONS in "milk."

Here is Amnesty International telling Afghans that the preponderance of evidences also demands that they secure this right:
War crimes Investigations in Afghanistan Crucial to Any Security Pact with USA | Amnesty International USA

They go on to say:
""Despite the widespread allegations of violations of international humanitarian law by U.S. troops in Afghanistan, the US authorities have only brought a handful of cases to trial."

So despite that moronic Khalid Pashtoon saying that the US was better equipped to put their own on trial, the evidence speaks to the contrary.

Night raids are couched in vague language. The equivalent of the sanctified fourth amendment against unlawful search and seizure is pretty much flushed in the toilet by Karzai showing that autonomy is nonexistent.

I think this lady was the only smart person at the loya jirga:

Karzai Says Security Pact With U.S. Should Be Signed Next Year - NYTimes.com

During his speech, a woman in the audience began to heckle Mr. Karzai.

She inquired about the issue of foreign raids on Afghan homes, a breach of privacy seen as deeply offensive here. Specifically, she pressed him about the concession that foreign raids would only be permitted in “extraordinary circumstances.” “All the night raids can be categorized as exceptional cases,” she yelled from the crowd, carrying on for more than a minute before she was ushered from the room. “This sister has left every jirga,” Mr. Karzai said, referring to her claim that she had been invited to the last two nationwide jirgas. “I know that, but her views should be respected.”

Look at the moron Hamida F-uckzai... on the one hand pretending to show pity and respect for her views but then admitting that he allows her to be escorted out during each jirga.

Indefinite tenure beyond 2024

Look at Japan to see what indefinite actually means and review the information I gave above about the embarrassing infractions on Japanese autonomy that this creates.

3) Arc of history

a) global

To date the US has been involved in Korea, various Arab states, Japan, Germany, Latin America etc. The examples commonly given by the Afghan Dogwashers and Western Afghans that benefit privately from the occupation is, through their bad dentition and greasy moustachios:
Look at South Korea and Japan... we can be like that.

OK, so what did South Korea trade and what did it gain?
Well, the Korean Nation is permanently divided with half of its people suffering sanctions in the North and the Southern half Christianized by missionary legions and deculturalized. So that is basically what prostitution is right? You gain a few bucks and live a little longer but you trade away dignity, autonomy, and your innate, native values, ideals, and culture.

This resulted in this schism in the country:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/14/world/asia/14iht-buddhist.1.16935374.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

"Buddhism is 1,600 years old in Korea, but it has lost ground, first to Catholicism and then to Protestant denominations. Protestantism arrived here with American missionaries only a century ago but has expanded in the past several decades in parallel with the country's modernization."

What did Japan gain?
Completely different scenario. Japan was an empire that already had infrastructure to work with.

let us see what occupying General MacArthur decided to do once he "secured the realm"
Now the conquered people of Japan had nothing.
MacArthur, sent out word: “Send missionaries,” he pleaded to a number of religious groups, “And Bibles.”
He made no secret of it, either. In 1955, MacArthur told U.S. News and World Report, “No phase of the occupation has left me with a greater sense of personal satisfaction than my spiritual stewardship.”
“Over the next five years, some 5,000 missionaries from all different kinds of churches went to Japan,” writes Dr. Jeff Sanders. “The land was flooded with millions of Bibles.”

Read more: Is it a scandal that Gen. MacArthur thought Christianity would help Japan? - On the Front Lines of the Culture Wars

Look at the BBC's discussion of this conquered nation will fare in the future:
BBC - World Tonight: Is Japan a dying nation?

ERIC - The US Occupation and Japan's New Democracy, Educational Perspectives, 2007

Above is an academic paper about what Japan lost:
"The United States had considered the source of Japan's militarism to lie in the selfless loyalty and love of country that many older Japanese had valued. They wanted to replace these older values with new ones that would ensure a more pacifist outlook. Thus, in the name of democratization and pacification, Japan lost some important aspects of its cultural heritage. But why did the United States want to eliminate these natural sentiments from the Japanese psyche? And what was the cost of these changes? This paper focuses on the first four months of the Occupation when Japan's first postwar education minister, Maeda Tamon, attempted to change education in the direction of a new democratic Japan. Maeda, Japan's preeminent liberal at the time, took the position of minister of education on August 18, 1945, before the Allied Occupation officially began. In his first two months, he quickly initiated a number of educational reforms without interference from American officials. He wanted these reforms not only to meet American expectations but also to preserve what he believed to be the unique aspect of Japanese culture--the emperor system. However, Maeda's understanding of the word "democracy" differed dramatically from what America wanted, and this difference incited the US to intervene with a different set of educational reforms."

b) Local

Karzai can be said to be resurrecting the idiotic policy of the Mohammadzai dynasty of strategic balancing. It started in Zahir Shah and his father's time and Daud continued it. The idea was that enemies would offset eachother and the country would milk multiple "cows" with each cow wanting its land for its own reasons. We saw the disasterous outcome there and can already see the disaster awaiting.

c) What has happened with indigenous people that crafted treaties with the US and other imperial powers throughout history?

Well look at the American Indians who crafted numerous treaties and saw those treaties broken by the dominant power. Where is their place today? Look at the Latinos and how their South America has suffered and been trashed and divided up. These descendents of the proud indigenous people are carved up into fiefdoms and were developmentally set back decades and only recently have begun to recover a modicum of independence.

So in summary your Uncle and a whole lot of people are willing to sell the long term for the short term because they think they are smart, but they are not. They are working for secondary gain and justifying this with foolish logic devoid of facts and history.

[Wowra]

Salam, brother.

I tried to read most of the thread to prevent redundancy, but its getting late: so, I apologize if I say anything that may have already been said.

Can Afghanistan survive? Of course. In fact, in the event of apocalypse, I've long told my wife that we will go to Afghanistan. Some may hunger, but very few starve--this is the case where community is paramount. Kabul, is obviously excluded, haha.

Now, can the Karzai bureaucracy survive? Absolutely not. The disparity of how much it costs vs. the little GDP that's extracted would cause the government to fail multiple times over. For the specifics, check out my article "Accidental Alchemy: Forging the Taliban into Effective Governance" available at Foreign Policy Journal. There was a lot of hub-bub about the 1.2 Trillion dollars worth of mineral resources available in Afghanistan, unfortunately--it's nearly bull****, to be frank.

First of all, though I agree with a lot of what has been previously said in the course of this thread, I have to point out the misinformed statement that Afghanistan cannot form deals with China. That's absolutely false. China Petrol is drilling for oil in the north, China Metallurgy is mining in Wardak, and China Metallurgy is trying to get out of their bid on the Ghazni deposits. India's SAIL was outbid by an Afghan with solid financial backing, but Wahidullah (Minister of Mines and Minerals) chose to award it to India to strengthen foreign relations vs. play a fair and balanced game that would benefit Afghanistan. SAIL then had to sell part of its mineral rights to the Canadian KILO. No move has been made on the land they bid on in Herat, but SAIL and KILO also mine in the Behsoods of Wardak.

Okay, now to more specifics about the vast mineral resources buried in Afghanistan. Here are the problems in no uncertain order:

Wahidullah's parameters are not applicable to business climate or Afghanistan's reality. When the number 1.2 trillion first got tossed around, Wahidullah was the first to believe it. NATO's mouthpieces espoused terms like "The Saudi Arabia of Lithium" which was a term liberated from Bolivia--the Saudi Arabia of Lithium the year before, and the one that is currently about to supply the world. When this first came to light, it was more or less propaganda designed to entice investors, so Wahidullah did what any belle of the ball would do: he only allowed pre-screened suitors to fill out his dance card. Unfortunately, no one came. A year passed, and still no one came. Exxon put a token bid on the oil, but didn't really pursue it after China bid. So Wahidullah threw another expo, allowing anyone to come. A ragtag bunch of suitors came that most of you wouldn't allow to even look at your daughters, let alone dance. So he redefined the nature of mineral business in Afghanistan. He made it "business friendly" which really means he allowed Afghans to be exploited a little more liberally. Still, no one bit. And this is why: According to the constitution, all mineral wealth is owned by the government, and therefore can be sold by the government. So essentially, if I'm a mining company, Wahidullah wants me to pay for an "Exploration license." After I've found what minerals and calculated the volume, I can then buy the rights to those minerals from him. So now, say I've shelled out millions of dollars on the rights to these minerals, then I roll my jingle trucks into Nuristan and arrive at Papruk, Nuristan to inform the good tribesmen that I just bought the pegmatites they've been mining for centuries from their government that they don't officially recognize. What do you suppose happens to my crew there in Nuristan? What do you think happens to the money I've invested? Exactly. None of it is ever seen again.

Point two: even if there is 1.2 Trillion dollars worth of minerals, the atmospheric challenges, absence of infrastructure, and lack of technological skillsets would make the profit margins laughable off the cuff... and that's assuming the figure isn't inflated (which sadly it is--like I said, it was propaganda). So 1.2 Trillion dollars doesn't mean much if it takes 1.999 Trillion to access it.

Point three: The lithium in Afghanistan is really only profitable in a few places. Herat is one, Parwan another, and near Khandahar. Those are the prehistoric evaporated lakes that contain the mineral salts where they could be harvested by the ton. It's a horrible process that would absolutely pollute the **** out of the country. Essentially, you fill the lake with an acid solution, allow it to evaporate, and what is left is the lithium salt which is scraped up and sold. Unfortunately, the market price is pretty low because EVERYONE is doing it. Meanwhile, Canada is developing a method that may make that irrelevant in the coming years. Lithium would literally flow on tap from their mountains. Everywhere else that the Russians and US Geo guys identified lithium is contained in pegmatites. Primarily its in Kunar, Nuristan, and Laghman. Unfortunately, due to the excess of Lithium operations about to hit markets, its nearly worthless when compared to the disparity of cost. A simple process easily understood by rural tribesmen is possible to knock the lithium out of spodumene ores harvested from the pegmatites, and even make it an upgraded form of Lithium Carbonate which goes for about 1200 bucks a ton. But the profit margin would be a bit scant to entice outside investment into that operating environment, which means it would have to be developed from within. It should be noted, that no one is mining pegmatites right now due to the brine lake operations.

Since there is no major manufacturers in Afghanistan, it would be difficult to see them financing their future. Not even their telecommunications really belong to them. There are some smaller operations, which likely pay absolutely no taxes. Apple co-ops, Herat's marble industry, the opium trade, etc, but unfortunately that's not enough to keep the lights on in Kabul.

So, will Afghanistan survive? Absolutely--never has there been a more resilient population of hard men and women. The tribes have been in the mountains for centuries and will remain for centuries more. Islam didn't even find the Black Kafirs until the 1900s--when Amir Abdur Rahman converted Nuristan in 1894, he only did so to the Red Kafirs of western Nuristan. Those mountains have a way of insuring a way of life to the men and women that live in them... That said... Will Kabulis be able to catch a movie or buy ill-fitting fashion jeans? Those items will be more difficult to find than Karzai. But they'll all probably be in Italy, hahah

Hopefully that answered some questions rather than sounding like an insane tirade.

M

[Wowra]

It would also be of benefit to remember that no one was better at milking the cow than Zahir Shah and Daud Khan... and Taraki ...and Hafizullah Amin... and Karmal... and Najibullah

[Zazai]

- BarakzaiAbdali, you've posted some POWERFUL analysis. Thanks for that.


- Wowra, good research and background info. So overall, you think our natural resources wouldn't help us much? like the term "Resource Curse"? Even if there was a new joint-government, made up of CLEAN people from each fraction (technocrats, taliban, hizb islami, khalq, northern alliance, etc)?

Is America providing electricity?

No.

It's with their $$ isn't it? same thing?

[Zazai]

this person also said:

against the USSR we gave 2,000,000 martyrs, the reds lost 10K. for every 1 of them, we lost 200 afghans. not a single fire was shot in their cities, while our cities were all flattened and infrastructure broken. how was it worth it?

america is now a superpower, that has over 900 bases, in more than 100 countries. they can continue this fight in AFG for several decades.... they don't care about their lost soldiers, once in a while. thats what soldiers are for. they can fire a missile from the Persian golf and hit a target in AFG. their drones r operated from USA. it's not man-to-man anymore.

we need to have this deal with USA, because without it, we don't have a flag. nobody knows afg, so nobody will ever invest in afghanistan. it will be war and warlords, poverty, taking us back another 1000 years...........

its not that we like USA, we hate them, but we have no choice. we'll starve if we cut our relations with the world (.e.g. USA). they have the military power to do what they want, ....nobody could stop them in the past 12 years. they have the strength, we are weak. they will do whatever they want.

how would you respond?

[Wowra]

I would make him define "survival." Is it security? Because in 2000, an apple farmer could shuttle his wares up and down Highway 2 without having to pay a single tax. Today, that same apple farmer must pay every ALP, ANP, ABP, Taliban, HiG, and bandit he comes across just to get his apples to Torkum.

Is survival competition in the global economy? Well, then no, Afghanistan doesn't have a chance at this time. Regardless of U.S. involvement, the average rural Afghan doesn't really care about that competition. Kabulis, technocrats, emirgre and those suckling at Karzai's teats do. Your average fellow in an outlying village in Paktia couldn't care less. He doesn't want what Kabul's selling. As long as his family is fed, his water is clean, and he has the opportunity to contemplate Allah at least 5 times a day, he is relatively happy. It's a game he's not interested in playing, and no matter how much the Kingdom of Kabul stomps its feet, demands fairness, cries, begs, borrows, or steals, he will remain disinterested and disconnected from Kabul. It's a paradigm we haven't even cracked here in America. I am originally from Texas. There we have our own culture, values, ethics, etc--however, due to the arrangement of our electoral process, urbanites in California, Massachusetts, and New York contribute to a staggering 105 (or something like it) electoral votes for the Democratic Party at the start of every election--which is a number that can't be matched by all the electoral votes in the south. So ultimately, a bunch of urban liberals from either coast determine how I live in an area that is so far removed from the values they espouse that I, like those around me, choose to not play in the game or acknowledge its rules. It doesn't pertain to me because the game tends to refuse to acknowledge how I live. It's the same thing in Afghanistan but on a hyper-scale. Here I just get pissed off and say I'm not playing. In Afghanistan, they do the same, but if one were to go to, say Ghaziabad, Kunar and inform them that they are in fact playing--that person and no matter how many men he brought with him would never be seen again. National identity is a myth, there. A Nuristani in Barg-e Matal has likely never seen an American except for 4 times over the past 13 years.. all he's seen is his local Border Police change outfits a few times. In the end, they'll keep picking their wasla, breeding horses, and largee bandee the red woods down the river into Pakistan. Because State only exists in Afghanistan to bridge the gap between religion and qawm.. and in places like Nuristan and Kunar, there's no gap to be had, and the "Global Market" is nothing more than selling gems, walnuts, and redwood at the bazaar in Chitral and Peshawar.

As for the resource curse, it's probably better that way. All the usual players are there. Remember, it was China Petrol in Sudan... Kilo's only other holding is in Congo. The people that come to a business climate like Afghanistan aren't friends that Afghans would want to have. Like Elf in Chad, or Exxon in Nigeria. Afghanistan is actually bl.essed with this situation, because it is only profitable if they access the resources themselves.

Consider this: Laghmani's are great miners.. they've been mining their own pegmatite fields for centuries.. but they prefer to supervise from the chai khana, and employ Nuristanis as the physical miners. Now we see an ethnic/tribal relationship that's mutually beneficial and could potentially stabilize a small region. The Nuristani gains usable skillsets, the Laghmani gets money with little effort, and they have to work together if they want it to continue. Now its to the Laghmani's benefit to keep things good with the Nuristani and vice versa. Maybe some marriages will happen to bring the two specific qawms together. So that's it on a microcosm. Now imagine a larger region. We'll say the Paprukis in eastern Nuristan, a tribe from Laghman in North east Laghman, and some Safi from central Kunar. Say they are all mining spodumene ore (raw ores containing lithium) and being funneled through a single logistical pathway.. say Barg-e Matal into the FATA north of Chitral and over to Gilgit where a small, simple refinery can be built. Now, a few palms would have to be greased whether its Af or Pak Border Police, tribal Khans or whoever, but the Safi, Laghmani, and Paprukis are consolidating their efforts and have financial incentive to work together. Say the Gujjar is the one physically transporting the loads to Gilgit. They're nomads, they know the routes and have established corridors. So outside Gilgit, the Lithium and Beryllium is cracked out of the spodumene immediately producing Lithium Carbonate and Beryllium. The latter sells for 1200 bucks a ton and the other 800 bucks a pound. From Gilgit, the products are sold directly to China with a hardball road directly into their country. At the end of the day, each tribe gets paid because the tribe is the actual owner of their respective mines, but everyone involved is financially incentivized to cooperate with one another. They are all now competing on the global market, and the area grows safer, money is infused to their local economies, their way of life does not change. The Elders can now afford to send their sons to medical school, their daughters can be more effective midwives. Math and science would be recognized as a virtue and engineering would become tantamount to money and safety. Since Kabul never comes around, they have the choice to connect themselves to Kabul, HiG, TB, or themselves because they now have the money and influence to not be the victims of those who would enforce their will upon them. The region would stabilize. End scene.

[Wowra]

If anyone does that- I want 5%!

[Khostai]

No Afghanistan will not survive, US clearly said we will stop all aid, together with Europe, they will be gone forever, to the others who rely on China need to weak up, China is famous around the world for making projects and never finishing it. The same thing will be in Afghanistan, they will do nothing.

Afghan government will fall, thousand if not millions people will die in total chaos, because civil war will come. Afghanistan will not be free, it will be even more under the influence of Pakistan and Iran.

It’s not only about economics but also about the whole country and the identity of Afghanistan, and this wowra guy doesn’t understand if the cities fall, together with them will also fall the Afghan culture, literature and the educated people, of course Afghan people as a whole will still be there, but do you people really want a Somalia type of a home country?
Because that is what you will get. And not to forget without strong government thousands of people will die from really simple illnesses that every country have cured except Afghanistan.

[Khostai]

If anyone does that- I want 5%!

You are a foreigner you will get nothing.

[Pakwatan]

wow. reading this thread made me sad.

I hope all educated Afghan expats in the west hopefully come back to re-build their nation.

[Wowra]

1. I don't know if you've noticed, but Afghanistan is in a civil war, already.
2. Perhaps the fundamental flaw in your thinking is the perception that Afghanistan's identity lies in the hands of the Government or the major cities, rather than the men and women that populate the largest swaths of the country in the rural lands. I am a farangee, but my friend, the second you slip on those skinny jeans and Dolce Gabana sunglasses to prance around Kabul, so are you.

[Kushan Prince]

Remember when Obama said "We expect to pull out all troops out of Afghanistan in 2014"? Will apparently, he turned his back on his promise and now he's getting a lot of heat from the republicans for this. This wasn't the first time obama was criticzied by the republicans for not doing a better job of pulling out troops quicker.

A part of me tells me that the only reason USA wants to stay longer in Afg is to get closer to china and iran because of Iran's negitiave relationship with America's closest aly (Isreal) so they can spy on them. Ironicaly, they want to build one base in herat. Coincidence? i don't think so but something is definitely fishy on why America suddenly wants to prolong this pointless war.

Everyone with a right mind knows that America only wants to stay because of the rich natrual recources and to get a bite in the opium trade, thats why they also want to negotiate peace talks with the Taliban. But i wonder, does anyone ever wonder what is going in the troops's head that they will be stationed to stay longer? don't they want to go home and see they're families?

[Khostai]

1. I don't know if you've noticed, but Afghanistan is in a civil war, already.
2. Perhaps the fundamental flaw in your thinking is the perception that Afghanistan's identity lies in the hands of the Government or the major cities, rather than the men and women that populate the largest swaths of the country in the rural lands. I am a farangee, but my friend, the second you slip on those skinny jeans and Dolce Gabana sunglasses to prance around Kabul, so are you.

Kabul is not like one of your godless citys in the west. Just becuase some guy was bored and put some skiny jeans, doesn't mean that the thousand of students in the univercitys are totaly westernised, last time I chekced majority had the same clothes what peopel wear in the villages.
Literature, art, music, science and general education is what defenies a countries face cultre and identity. If you don't understand that you are not only a farangy, bust also some kind of hill billy murican, who daydreams about apocaliptic event, just so that his life will spice up a littel bit.

[Kushan Prince]

1. I don't know if you've noticed, but Afghanistan is in a civil war, already.
2. Perhaps the fundamental flaw in your thinking is the perception that Afghanistan's identity lies in the hands of the Government or the major cities, rather than the men and women that populate the largest swaths of the country in the rural lands. I am a farangee, but my friend, the second you slip on those skinny jeans and Dolce Gabana sunglasses to prance around Kabul, so are you.

Majority of Afghans stick to the ordinary kameez and partog, NOT jeans and shirts. This includes youngsters.

Your American propaganda won't work here my friend, all you morons are good at doing is picking on smaller countries and suck them dry off their recources while clamming to "wipe out" terrorists and proclaming false victories.

Your'e all the same to me.

[DSM0305]

Remember when Obama said "We expect to pull out all troops out of Afghanistan in 2014"? Will apparently, he turned his back on his promise and now he's getting a lot of heat from the republicans for this. This wasn't the first time obama was criticzied by the republicans for not doing a better job of pulling out troops quicker.

A part of me tells me that the only reason USA wants to stay longer in Afg is to get closer to china and iran because of Iran's negitiave relationship with America's closest aly (Isreal) so they can spy on them. Ironicaly, they want to build one base in herat. Coincidence? i don't think so but something is definitely fishy on why America suddenly wants to prolong this pointless war.

Everyone with a right mind knows that America only wants to stay because of the rich natrual recources and to get a bite in the opium trade, thats why they also want to negotiate peace talks with the Taliban. But i wonder, does anyone ever wonder what is going in the troops's head that they will be stationed to stay longer? don't they want to go home and see they're families?

yeah, Afghanistan got so many natural resources that Americans want. All those resources which they apparently didn't take while having 140000 troops, but now when they want to reduce the troops to around 10000, they will suddenly steal them. Of course having soldiers stationed in few bases in Afghanistan will suddenly make it possible for Americans to steal them, because we all know soldiers are the best men to take not mined resources.

USA is definitely not losing trillions of $ in Afghanistan by having American troops stationed that far away. I mean it is free to have troops stationed in far away land, right?

We also know that USA definitely don't have any bases in Pakistan. We also know that Pakistan doesn't have any border with Iran and China. So of course Americans want USA bases in Afghanistan to be closer to China and Iran, I mean what are the chances of Iran retaliating against USA by attacking American bases?