Fountainhead of Jihad The Haqqani Nexus, 1973-2012

[khushal]

So if US soldier rape and kill peopel its oke for your monkey also to kill and rape and discriminate? Why do you talk bull**** again, you are the only idiot here, your so dum, that I really wonder sometimes how in the world you managed to turn on you pc and type????

its not OK for anyone to do it, but the facts speak for themselves.
now stop the fabrication or else I will inform the zoo you escaped from of your whereabouts.

[Khostai]

^Still you can't convice me that taliban were good or are good for Afghanistan.

And about Amanullah, I have also read about his strange and dum policies, but we are not talking about him? Or do we? And I am not propageting his style or his type of peopel that should come back to power. But you on the other hand still try to portrey taliban as the only saviours of Afghanistan, becuase you can't imagine other solution to the problems Afghanistan face today. You want this peopel back to power, when you know yourself that they can't rule a country. You admit your self that taliban made mistakes and there rule was damaging and Afghanistan was poor as hell and it didn't got any better. Not economicaly or socialy or in other field.

But you still try to defend them and want them back. Why do you want that? I am a secularist, thats not a surprise here and everyone knows that, but I don't want the old communists or Amanullah type of peopel back to power, becuase I know that they have faild, they couldn't make a stabel Afghanistan. And I want new peopel to rule Afghanistan, educated and strong who respects everyone regardles of there religion (or the lack of it) and there ethnicity.

But you still are holding one to peopel who failed on every front, and you know yourself that when they come back to power, the whole world gona turn there back on Afghanistan. You can come to Afghanistan on vacation like a tourist, but would you live there? You are grown man, and I bet you alredy finished your school and education. So there could be nothing that holds you back. Would you live under there rule? And be honest.....



About the Nazis and jews read some history on that matter it will enlighten you. I have no time or the energy to copy and paste articals around the web like you. I am sorry about that.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

^Still you can't convice me that taliban were good or are good for Afghanistan.

Not my goal. I dont think in the many posts I have had that I have argued that they were good or bad. I have argued that they were an essential part to an initial phase of governance that ought to have been left alone. They were in my historical estimation, the same as the English Puritans who burned women alive in Massachussetts bay for being witches (John Hawthorne, great great great grandfather of Nathaniel Hawthorne, author of the Scarlet Letter was their Mullah Omar), they banned any semblance of a Christmas celebration except religious mass, they demonized the local Indian community etc. But that phase was rejected by the people themselves over a century. It had to be the people that decided whether puritanical governance was for them or not so as to allow healthy development and progression into other forms of governance.

It took America 400 years to get to the stage that its at, and how it got there was through not being intervened upon by the outside.

And about Amanullah, I have also read about his strange and dum policies, but we are not talking about him? Or do we?

Its important because most of these Amanullahite and Najibiites hearken back to his rule and try to contrast it with the Taliban. Its disingenous to solely talk about Taliban as if they were the only government of Afghanistan to make errors because that then makes it seem everything was chocolate and roses before and after. That then disenfranchises the masses and the rural people who should also have a say.

And I am not propageting his style or his type of peopel that should come back to power. But you on the other hand still try to portrey taliban as the only saviours of Afghanistan, becuase you can't imagine other solution to the problems Afghanistan face today.

Not true. People suppose that because of selection bias here. What happens is that there are many many many farsibaan mentality Pashtuns here and some hyper secularist marxist atheists like Toramana who spend their whole life trying to implement their vision and their view by force. In that vein, they slyly try to make up ahistorical reasons for why the rural masses and the people should have no voice whatsoever. They create, like Soldat has, a nonreality to allow for outside powers to continue interventiontionalism in Afghanistan. I am usually countering, effectively I might say, their bias and ensuring there is no Najibiite slant to history when it is discussed. When soundly defeated intellectually these people go back to their classic canard of Pakistan.

Thankfully, I have seen you, under the AFG21 title and more recently being honest about the rural mentality and who these folks really were. I believe that is something folks can work with. There can never be compromise if both sides are coming up with conspiracy theories, like the one I heard here where they said Mullah Omar was actually Hamid Gul and that NDS has proven Hamid Gul would get flown to Kandahar for the shura meetings and wear a mask etc. This stupidity is a nonstarter

You want this peopel back to power, when you know yourself that they can't rule a country.

No I want balance. I want the Afghan people to figure out their own issues internally. Whatever conclusion they come to, whether it be secularism, communism, atheist, soldatism, Islamism, democracy, monarchy etc it should be all their own. The canard that Pakistan will always exist and therefore there is no choice in the matter is a just that, a canard to perpetuate Afghan Americans getting rich off the war.

You admit your self that taliban made mistakes and there rule was damaging and Afghanistan was poor as hell and it didn't got any better. Not economicaly or socialy or in other field.


Ten years? It took 10 years for FDR just to get himself into a war through lies to get America out of the Great Depression. I caste that blame on those people that left the country like Abdul Ahad and Hamid Karzai and Zahir Shah. If Zahir Shah had put on his AK 47 and run into the battle ahead of Omar then he would have earned the right to lead. Instead they left these guys to fight the war. Thats how life works... people respect "balls" and they surely dont appreciate these "leaders" taking mud bathes in Italy while they bled for their country.

The fault lies with our own upper and educated classes for not being leaders when it mattered most.

This is what differentiates a George Washington and a Ben Franklin from a Hamid Karzai, Zahir Shah, or Ashraf Ghani. The former stayed with their people and suffered at Vally Forge and nearly died with their people - the latter hosted green tea and almond sessions for Charlie Wilson who then funded the average man and the madrassah guys to actually fight in the front lines.

That is the only message I have. Its not about bringing Taliban back... its about leaders being leaders when they need to be.

Look at Karzai's own behavior. In Kandahar for instance, he understood the tribal mentality and gave Omar protection. Rumsfeld told him "hell no." Instead of standing his ground and telling Rummy, you are not Afghan you dont understand us or our ways - he caved. And he has done this every time - whether its civilian issues and deaths or whether it is basic Afghan sovereignty issues - he and his folks are not leaders.


But you still try to defend them and want them back. Why do you want that? I am a secularist, thats not a surprise here and everyone knows that, but I don't want the old communists or Amanullah type of peopel back to power, becuase I know that they have faild, they couldn't make a stabel Afghanistan.

You are making assumptions about my wants. I have always argued one thing and one thing alone - that the will of the people prevail.

And I want new peopel to rule Afghanistan, educated and strong who respects everyone regardles of there religion (or the lack of it) and there ethnicity.

Not a bad idea. But thats something history shows the Afghan people will have to inculcate and develop on their own without the excuses of Iran and Pakistan and the istaan states not allowing that. Once again the latter excuse is used to justify Afghan Americans milking the Pentagon and the American people to sustain this war... no historical bases for their claims

But you still are holding one to peopel who failed on every front, and you know yourself that when they come back to power, the whole world gona turn there back on Afghanistan.

Thats another issue in and of itself. I think its deplorable that one power can tell everyone else to not trade with, Cuba or vietnam for instance. And thats what you have to weigh Khostai. These folks would turn their back on anyone if it suits their interests and gain. Thats why they removed a liberal secular leader like Iran's Mossadegh from power in Operation Ajax. I agree that the peoples of the world should travel, trade, barter, have common economics - but this cannot and should not be used by powers to guarantee that everyone obeyed their world view, even to the detriment of their own way of life.

Thats why central asia and these nations need to think of a way that gives them complete economic independence and unity to avoid being used by all outside imperial powers. There is natural gas, water way resources, mineral wealth etc all the ingredients of a super power there.

With economic advances will come progress.

You can come to Afghanistan on vacation like a tourist, but would you live there? You are grown man, and I bet you alredy finished your school and education. So there could be nothing that holds you back. Would you live under there rule? And be honest.....

How can one live there when a small group of rogue people are vandalizing the nation and terrorizing the common people and Hamid Karzai is rubber stamping it?

I was too young to make that decision before.

But I do think these secular marxist types should have had to live in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where their experiments were actually implemented. Or they should go to Vietnam or North Korea

That is the issue with the Islamic world as a whole. These secular types have made all these nations unlivable. They are usually failures in the West and they decide to take out their anger on the common people back home to build their sick fantasy "republics"

About the Nazis and jews read some history on that matter it will enlighten you.

I have read a lot of it. But I need references for those things you stated regarding A) the jews appreciating the stamp and B) Hitler ever saying it was for that purpose

I have no time or the energy to copy and paste articals around the web like you. I am sorry about that.

But then that renders your argument moot. It means that we have to simply trust your slant on the matter. It takes 5 minutes tops and usually about 2 and a half minutes to find a strong reference.

x

[khushal]

The germans themselves are comparing Bush to Hitler:

The regional Schwaebisches Tagblatt newspaper quoted German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder’s justice minister, Herta Daeubler-Gmelin, as saying “Bush wants to divert attention from his domestic problems. It’s a classic tactic. It’s one that Hitler used.”

After he said that, he was forced to resign which is another hitler tactic. get rid of people that speak their minds.

[Catya Sher]

Back to SK reply for a minute.

Thanks, that's good advice, then.
I was getting skeptical because nearly all of these are so badly
slanted that it makes me fume while reading.

Seems wrong to have to wade through so many lies
and false assumptions [about even basics like The Planes of 2000,
I mean 2001] to glean a few morsels of insight.

But if you think this is indeed worth it, I will try to find a copy.
Of course the earlier sections may be fairly unbiased. But it's the
last 15 years or so that I would be highly suspicious of.

I did read a review of "An Enemy We Created". It sounded good at first.
But then I realized the authors were still operating on false premises.
So I put it on a mental back burner list to investigate some time later.

I would be curious to know about the background of these 2 authors.
I did read in that review that they reside PERMANENTLY in Kandahar.
That sounds so much better than the fake 'experts' who have done the same thing since the Soviet invaion : fly in to Peshawar or Kabul now,
for a mere week or two out of the year ; talk to a few English-speaking Afghans, and leave after
spending time in luxury hotels and partying & drinking alcohol with Western media hacks. These latter are mistakenly often relied upon as a major source of information by Western scholars as well as fellow journalists. These people trust a Westerner way before
a local Afghan, VERY sadly.

There is no substitute for having an entirely open mind,
meeting frequently with regular Afghans of ALL strata.
And, like these 2 authors, learning the relevant languages.
I believe both of the two speak several.

Compare with that Canadian woman interviewer of Karzai's brother Abdul Wali recently posted.
Who really wants to hear what he had to say, anyway ?
She did persist with pointed questions to him, but why to spend large sums of her station's funds to get HIS point of view,
rather than normal Afghans who will be much more truthful
and outspoken.

But then, the media never cares about truth. Only sensationalist
and patently wrong programs and coverage, designed to
indoctrinate viewers, not to inform them of REAL problems !

These 2 authors did seem to really care to present a fuller picture
to their credit.

However, I am alarmed to hear that the English version of Mullah Z's
Life was not anything as powerful as the Pashto version !
That's not fair to the Western public !

I would much prefer to read the REAL version.
Some day maybe it will be rendered into English. The current version
was frightening enough ! [I have felt so bad about what happened to him
that I stopped reading right away. So tragic.

But I WILL finish it maybe this summer, God willing.]

[Niazi]

http://www.pajhwok.com/en/2010/10/18...ndu-left-khost

Dear lobotomised chimps

I don't need your irrelevant link.

Back then I used live in (Sada )and I seen it with my own eyes ,I'm not like your ISI mate Dr Barkzay to spam the thread with stupid and unworthy link written by Westerners, regarding my own country ,I'v been there , I've seen it all .

[khushal]

^^^you could see khost from sada? wow your vision is good, better than the journalists that were actually in khost and Kabul.

[proud_pashtun]

You're Pathetic! You support Taliban who destroyed Your history an Culture, Taliban are Barbarians, THANK GOD for the afghan Army They will save Afghanistan From Talibani terrorists Insh'Allah.

[Niazi]

^^^you could see khost from sada? wow your vision is good, better than the journalists that were actually in khost and Kabul.

As ghoul and ignorant as you are .

No you can't see Khost from Sada but I have seen the vultures and scavengers,aka Mujahideen I.e Taliban Flogging the war loot on streets .

You dimwit ghool.

[Badlun]

I am really astonished that many educated members here like Khushal, Barakzai, Shamlawar etc defend Taliban and want to push Pashtuns further in the caves of darkness, ignorance, obscurantism and barbarity.

Can you cite a single example that Taliban style system has been implemented anywhere in the world including the 58 Muslim countries? Was it implemented in the history of Muslims in the past 1400 years any where?How come you recommend, support and suggest it for Pashtuns and Afghans? Even in the Salafi Saudi, Kuwait and Qatar states you have monarchy not Taliban style government.

Citing a link that a Sikh was happy in Taliban era does not serve the purpose. They had to give those positive statements because of terror and fear of Taliban otherwise they would be cut into pieces and their throats slaughtered.

Do not you think that we have better alternatives like democracy, human rights, development, prosperity, secularism and modern education and keeping the religion limited to our personal and family life?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Only non muslims and major sinners and hypocrites hate Taliban.

[randolph85]

Only non muslims and major sinners and hypocrites hate Taliban.

Putting the taliban on the same level as god, are we?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Putting the taliban on the same level as god, are we?

Its an issue of walaa wal baraa. Taliban are hated because they are fighting for Islam. They are hated for desiring sharia. So naturally hatred for Taliban equal hatred for Islam and thus hatred for Allah.

You should read Quran with an open mind and you will understand.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I am really astonished that many educated members here like Khushal, Barakzai, Shamlawar etc defend Taliban and want to push Pashtuns further in the caves of darkness, ignorance, obscurantism and barbarity.

Can you cite a single example that Taliban style system has been implemented anywhere in the world including the 58 Muslim countries? Was it implemented in the history of Muslims in the past 1400 years any where?How come you recommend, support and suggest it for Pashtuns and Afghans? Even in the Salafi Saudi, Kuwait and Qatar states you have monarchy not Taliban style government.

Citing a link that a Sikh was happy in Taliban era does not serve the purpose. They had to give those positive statements because of terror and fear of Taliban otherwise they would be cut into pieces and their throats slaughtered.

Do not you think that we have better alternatives like democracy, human rights, development, prosperity, secularism and modern education and keeping the religion limited to our personal and family life?

They gave the statements in the Reuters article in the post Taliban era/Karzai era. In fact in the last article its the parliamentary representative of the Sikhs blasting the Karzai government. Thats my point, you are coming to this discussion with blinders on and you dont even read for detail as every piece of evidence deserves when discussing these important matters. When you are given evidence you don't even weight it because an agenda guides your approach, which is to subdue and subvert the national sentiments and will of the masses.

I know when Khostai posted that essay from Georgetown, I took the time to at least read every word of it and give him an adequate response showing I had read the subject matter.

This is my general issue with the paradigm you guys propose - its guided by emotion and thought and not an evidence based of historical approach to the matter.

Its as if you dont even test against a null hypothesis and instead you demand that the evidence be either construed or weighted towards the hypothesis you feel is the right one.

That is a nonstarter discussion. If you had read the subsequent discussion between Khostai and I, I think even he gets a bit of what I am putting forth. He may not agree with outcomes, but he certainly does not dispute facts.

As an example, in that same article, hindu leaders as opposed to Sikhs did voice minority opposition and their names were printed and nothing bad came to them.

In summary, intellectual approaches and discussions to the matter go no where with you guys because the takfiri and the militant secularist are two sides of the same coin.

And please dont take it personally, I think you and I have a better relationship these days, but this is just my observation.

Or take for instance the blatant lying some do here. When Zeary's personal statements were quoted by myself, commas, periods and all, one member claimed to read between the lines and tried to lie about Zeary's sentiments.

I personally feel that the majority of Afghans and Muslims around the world deserve a voice since all the data consistently shows their preferences and what they want.

I think this is what troubles you folks is that we dont tow the line that makes people feel good about judging the masses and their backs on their natural rights to how they see fit to govern themselves.

We cannot but cease to be the voice of the people because the evidence demands it.

This is the same way we feel for the Latinos and their struggles, wants, desires etc and the way the data presents what their goals and aspirations are. We cannot simply make every nation a panama even though there are Venezuals and Chiles out there.

That would be like acting like Cain instead of Abel.

[randolph85]

Its an issue of walaa wal baraa. Taliban are hated because they are fighting for Islam. They are hated for desiring sharia. So naturally hatred for Taliban equal hatred for Islam and thus hatred for Allah.

You should read Quran with an open mind and you will understand.

no, you are implying that the taliban are infallible because if they weren't, then there would be legitimate bases for people to hate them and since there is not according to you, then they are perfect. only god is infallible. its pretty ridiculous to basically say that everyone who is not 100% talib supporter is a kafir, because if they aren't 100% behind the taliban, then they aren't 100% behind god.

you and your hated shias have more in common than you think lol