Muslims vs. Islamists

[Manzareh]

Can you proof anything in that F graded paper. What on Carmen San Diego is long beards have anything to do?

I'm just exposing people who have no clue on what they are doing and "thanking"

I didn't insult Hallo, her English just sucks.

Hallo's English is good, the trick is you have to read her posts from the bottom upwards instead.

[randolph85]

if u are a secularist and want to impose ur worldview on society, then it is encouraged and well funded.

if u are a muslim and want to do the same, u are called an "islamist," discouraged from entering politics and shot down when the momentum is on ur side.


the view of secularists is astounding. to be a muslim at home is fine, but if u dare enter politics while retaining islamic values, that means u hate christians and jews, want to kill people, want to blow up people and are bin laden incarnate.

[HalloIsBack]

Lol, did you even read the article. This response doesn't match at all with the theme of that poorly written essay.

Your crying to an admin like a baby, and crying wolf, than blackmailing me by saying its Ramadan is laughable.

Yes I did! Obviously you not!

So tell about what is this "poorly written" essay?

oh yes i'm a little child and need just some attention
i get an infraction of using the f word so equality for everybody on pf
so if i blackmailing you do it also with me where is the problem?

[HalloIsBack]

Can you proof anything in that F graded paper. What on Carmen San Diego is long beards have anything to do?

I'm just exposing people who have no clue on what they are doing and "thanking"

I didn't insult Hallo, her English just sucks.

Why the fuc did you thank this post? Are you mentally handicapped or something

my english sucks? you forgot to use a question mark!

[HalloIsBack]

The article is distorted and manipulative. The paper does not mention that the "islamist" dispute with the west has more to do with the west's military presence and interference in the Islamists homeland than anything else.

agree with you on this point

Illuminati, Independend Belgian MP LAURENT LOUIS say the truth about world conspiracy (Fr/English) - YouTube

the west use the islamist to achieve their aims and the islamist use the west to achieve their aims

[HalloIsBack]

This is a wonderful article and truly depicts the quagmire in which Muslims have been fallen recently because of Islamism. It does not make any difference how the term Islamism was coined but what Islamism means is a reality.

Vast majority of Muslims follow the religion of Islam but few misguided like Wahabis, Salafis, Taliban, Al Qaeda etc follow Islamism.

Others like Ahle Hadith, Deobandis, Tableeghis etc do not follow Islamism directly but they have the same ideology as of Islamists considering Islam to be the complete code of life and want to implement it by force or persuasion in all spheres of life including politics, economy, society, culture, education while the religion of Islam covers only beliefs, worship and ethics.

do you always post such kinds of posts? if yes send me a friendship request

[HalloIsBack]

Hallo's English is good, the trick is you have to read her posts from the bottom upwards instead.

are you seriuos or just joking and i don't get it
cuz you know i'm very insecure with my english

[کیش]

my english sucks? you forgot to use a question mark!

Yes, your english sucks. I didn't use a question mark because it was a statement, and not a question.

This essay sucks, read Randolph's post on why. If you can read it

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The "you's" in the article that follows is toward Soner Cagaptay.

Muslims vs. Islamists
HDN | 1/27/2010 12:00:00 AM | Soner Çağaptay

Lets address this article rationally, and with an evidence based approach. After all, evidence and fact trump opinion every time! Thats why Badlun usually ends up being on the less evidence based side of most arguments. First lets examine who Soner Cagaptay is and examine the agenda of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. First, he may be a self promoter, an easy thing to be these days if you want to validate establishment views these days in the US. His wikipedia page reads as if he wrote it based on his CV.

Not so long ago Cagaptay was rebutted aggressively and soundly. Below, in a separate post I have included a slew scholars including John Esposito, rebutting Mr. Cagaptay and showing that he could be grouped in with neocons in the West or hypersecularist militants in the East.

So basically, Cagaptay is sort of like that murdering slime ball Najibullah, and pretty much every secularist-communist extremist that we have read about thus far in Pashtunlands.



Far from being synonymous, Islam and Islamism are very different. While the former is a religion, the latter is merely a political, "anti-" ideology that spews hatred.


Key point - he says "spews hatred." Nothing really follows except opinion and fluff. What is "hatred?" Does this mean hatred of things Cagaptay likes? Hatred of Britney Spears? Hatred of One Direction? Hatred of the common refrain "our way of life in the West?"

No, Mr Cagaptay abbreviates his sentence on that note because the evidence shows what the Islamists "hate."

Lets use evidence and scholarship to point us towards what these folks that he hates, actually hate:

Why They Hate Us –

Real scholars like Michael Scheuer, Peter Bergen, and James Payne show us what they really "Hate":

According to Michael Scheuer, who headed the CIA's bin Laden unit from 1996 to 1999: "In the long run, we’re not safer because we're still operating on the assumption that we're hated because of our freedoms, when in fact we're hated because of our actions in the Islamic world. There's our military presence in Islamic countries, the perception that we control the Muslim world's oil production, our support for Israel and for countries that oppress Muslims such as China, Russia, and India, and our own support for Arab tyrannies."

Peter Bergen, who produced the first television interview with OBL in 1997, says "that in all the tens of thousands of words uttered by OBL, he was strangely silent about American freedoms and values. He didn't seem to care very much about the beliefs of the crusaders.' His focus was invariably on U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East."

Political scientist James Payne, in a review of twenty-four official pronouncements of OBL from 1994-2004, found that 72 percent of the content amounted to "criticism of the United States and other Western countries for their aggression against Muslim lands and the need to defend against and punish this aggression." Only 1 percent criticized American culture or the American way of life.


I am thankful to Mr. Umaru Abdul Mutallab, the father of the failed Christmas day bomber. In late 2009, Mr. Abdul Mutallab, a Muslim, approached U.S. authorities in his native Nigeria to warn them of his son’s slide into Islamist ideology. Mr. Abdul Mutallab’s altruistic initiative is a case in point about the conflict between Muslims and Islamists.

Or between fathers and sons. One would do well to note that sociology studies show that children most often acquire the political beliefs of their parents with some slight modifications. Mr. Mutallab did not develop his views in a vacuum. His father never disagreed with his views on western foreign policy - he disagreed with his son's methodologies.

While Islam is the faith of 1.4 billion people, Islamism is not a form of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety. Rather, it is a political ideology that strives to derive legitimacy from Islam. Islam and Islamism are not synonymous, and there is even a tension between the two, exemplified by the case of this Nigerian Muslim father turning in his Islamist son to the authorities.

Once again, the father hasn't published his views. But we do have major studies across the Muslim world, including the Pew Data:
The World' s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society - Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life

And the large University of Maryland Study:

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/apr07/START_Apr07_rpt.pdf

that show a large swath of the populations, including in where Mutallab came from have issues with our foreign policy not simply to hate or be anti as Soner suggests.



So if Islam is a faith, then what is Islamism? It can be best described as an “anti-” ideology, in the sense that it defines itself only in opposition to things. That is, Islamism stands not for but against.

As per the above, this is an unsubstantiated opinion of his, that shows his inner drive and ideological grand standing. He cites no evidence and ignores the preponderance of it that shows he is completely incorrect. But what more ought we expect from a two bit hack?

For starters, Islamism is anti-Semitic in promoting the view that Jews are evil. Because Jews live in Israel, it is also anti-Israeli, and it is also anti-American due to its distorted view of Jews’ role in the United States. “Jews are evil, they run America, therefore America is evil” – this is the mantra of Islamist thinking.

The statement "because jews live in Israel, it is also anti Israel." Even Alan Dershowitz or a child knows this is about as an intelligence a statement as a brainless automaton would make; nothing more nothing less. Scholar Norman Finklestein writes in detail regarding the long history of why Israel finds itself hated by native populations and others beyond her borders:
Norman G. Finkelstein



Islamism is also anti-Christian, having a perverted view of the religion as well.

As per above. No need to even address this claim since he confuses cause and effect.

And since Jews and Christians live in the West, many Islamists are anti-Western. They likewise oppose liberal democracy and secularism, as these institutions originated in the West.

Perhaps he can refer to Operation Ajax committed on the Iranian peoples by the British and Kermit Roosevelt to subvert liberal democracy. Or perhaps he can refer to the overturning of multiple democratic governments by these same groups to understand the backlash. Once again, he operates on low engine two brain cells it appears... he repeatedly conflates causes and effects.

What is more, Islamists tend to be anti-capitalist because – now you follow the logic – capitalism originates from the West.

Israel is a socialist nation in many respects.... so does that mean she hates capitalism? There is little evidence to support this statement either. Rather, the very same Muslims in the Baltimore study that hated Western policy appreciated technological and systems achievements of capitalist nations.

Many also believe that “Jews invented capitalism” and therefore see capitalism as doubly evil. When they make money, however, Islamists often soften their negative attitude toward capitalism, anti-capitalism being ever the corruptible link in the Islamists’ “anti-” ideology.
Paradoxically, Islamists also consider communism evil – “the Jews invented that as well.” That Karl Marx, who had Jewish grandparents, was raised a secular Protestant is irrelevant to Islamist zealots who find “evil Jews” everywhere.

White supremecists and not Islamists trumpet this claim. Rather, what one finds in the anti Gulenist movement that Cagatay is a part of his a very hostile tone towards Americans in general with rabid conspiracy mongering about how Graham Fuller created the sinister plot to rule Turkey ala Erdogan.

Islamists see Jewishness in all things they dislike politically. Take, for instance, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, who had no Jewish heritage. Many Islamists, who cannot imagine a genuine Muslim who shares Western values, will tell you he is a crypto-Jew.

Really, because such things never happen (sarcasm) to stoke their fanciful imaginations my dear little retarded soner:
Eli Cohen Official Web Site | Chronology | Sponsored by Maurice Cohen and the American Friends of Eli Cohen Memorial, Inc.



Islamism is therefore not about the Islamic faith. Rather, it is a dystopian ideology that distorts religion and reality to fit its “anti-” platform.

As if they are all Imo or something. This coming from the leading advocate of Mr. Anti himself, Kemal Ataturk who is pretty much loathed by the Turkish masses that the military squelched in serial coups.

In fall 2009, in a recent case demonstrating this pattern, Turkish Islamists attended the funeral of Caliph Ertuğrul Osman, the descendant of Westernizing Ottoman sultans, lamenting the caliphate as the anti-Western institution par excellence.
Distortedly, these Islamists envisioned Osman, a Scotch-drinking, Wagner-listening, Western Muslim and resident of Upper East Side in New York City, as the leader of their Islamist crusade, arriving at his funeral only to celebrate this delusion.

He just disproved his initial assertion. If Mr. Osman was "whiskey drinking" then it proves Bergen, Scheuer, Esposito et al thesis that it has nothing to do with Western values or modernity but rather the massive amount of evidence points towards sentiments being against being invaded and having your autonomy sacked.

But perhaps worst of all, Islamists distort their very own religious texts so as to befit this “anti-” platform. Consider the various annotations of the Muslim sacred book, the Koran. The book was originally written in classical Arabic, a rich, sophisticated language with tens of thousands of words and nuances, as well as flowing poetry.

Uh, the Quran itself denigrates those that call it poetry. Looks like Soner needs to deal with his "tendencies" and "internal turmoil" and actually read it before commenting on it

Over eighty percent of the world’s Muslims don’t speak or read Arabic, so the book has to be translated, requiring the addition of numerous annotations. These annotations differ depending on the edition of the text. In the case of Islamists, these are the seeds of hatred.

The most common English subtexts used are those of Yusuf Ali... in fact the House of Saud adopted his translation and only over decades modified his original annotations. The original core Islamists were for the most part Arabic speaking so the theory is rather baseless.


I was raised in Turkey and read the Koran with Turkish annotations. The first time I read an Islamist Koran was when I was 26, living in New York City. Praying at an American mosque, I came across an English-language Koran printed in Saudi Arabia, the main purveyor of Islamist texts worldwide. In its man-made annotations, this Koran preached violence and hatred towards Jews, Christians, the West and Western institutions generally.

Verse citations and associated annotations Soner son... please show how the annotations "misrepresent" the original text

In Turkey, the Diyanet, the country’s highest authority for the Muslim faith, prints Korans that are “halal,” i.e., without such hateful annotations.

Yet in other articles you lament the rise of Gulenists or your crypto Islamists LOOOLL. Please make some sense and deal with the discordancy of your views.

This institution is part of the secular government bureaucracy in Turkey, an ironic fact that is not without good consequences. The Diyanet promotes and protects tolerant Turkish/Balkan Islam, which explains why generations of Turks have grown up in Turkey shunning Islamism. The right Koran can firewall the minds of Muslims against Islamism, and in Turkey, Muslims have thus far won out against the Islamists.

Refer to last statement... you are contradicting your own series of non evidence based articles


The future of many countries in the world, and the future of the West, will be determined by this battle between Muslims and Islamists. Islamists want to convert Muslims to their hateful ideology. God knows the world needs more Muslims and fewer Islamists.

Actually the world needs fewer people like you who misrepresent the evidence at hand and foment sustained and continued western and eastern conflict. I would urge that Soner returns to Turkey from his safe haven in DC and actually deal with Mr. Erdogan and the Anatolians who back him directly instead of taking bribe money from think tanks to write his rather nonsensical views as if they were fact. I have a newfound respect from Daniel Pipes and other miscreants and neocons... at least their work is clever and guileful as opposed to this low level low intelligence idiocrat garbage

* Soner Çağaptay is a senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East policy and author of “Islam, Secularism and Nationalism in Modern Turkey: Who is a Turk?” (2006).

Senior fellow??? Really? Suddenly the impact factor of the think tank he joined went down 10 points.



OPINION - Muslims vs. Islamists

We can end with this study done by the University of Arizona to show that his idiotic commentary on both the motivations and the annotations argument falls through:

How Islamist Extremists Quote the Qur’an | CSC Center for Strategic Communication

Here is the premise for this study:

"Islamist extremists make heavy use of the Qur’an (Islam’s most sacred text) in their strategic communication. This study analyzed the most frequently cited or quoted verses in the Center for Strategic Communication’s database of over 2,000 extremist texts. The texts date from the years 1998 to 2011, and originate primarily from the Middle East and North Africa. Taking this data as a starting point, we provide a qualitative analysis of the historical contexts and core narrative components of the cited passages.

It goes on to say:

Other findings in the report raise questions about the veracity of claims often made by analysts. The most surprising is the near absence of the well-known “Verse of the Sword” (9:5) from the extremist texts. Widely regarded as the most militant or violent passage of the Qur’an, it is treated as a divine call for offensive warfare on a global scale. It is also regarded as a verse which supersedes over one hundred other verses of the Qur’an that counsel patience, tolerance, and forgiveness.

And their conclusions:

"We conclude that verses extremists cite from the Qur’an do not suggest an aggressive offensive foe seeking domination and conquest of unbelievers, as is commonly assumed. Instead they deal with themes of victimization, dishonor, and retribution. This shows close integration with the rhetorical vision of Islamist extremists.

Based on this analysis we recommend that the West abandon claims that Islamist extremists seek world domination, focus on counteracting or addressing claims of victimage, emphasize alternative means of deliverance, and work to undermine the “champion” image sought by extremists."

So Soner... get a life and read some real studies for once that actually matter instead of writing opinion pieces.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

References to a series of scholarly posts that turn Cagaptay into a whipping boy:

Responses to Cagaptay’s articles:

The Crisis in Turkey?
By John L. Esposito, Professor of Religion and International Affairs at Georgetown University
March 2, 2010, the Huffington Post

Neo-Cons Attack Fethullah Gulen
By Bruce Prescott, Executive Director of Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists
March 01, 2010, Mainstream Baptist

[Soner Çağaptay finally gets it!] Fethullah Gülen is indeed behind Turkey's democratization process
By Mehmet Kalyoncu, International Relations Analyst
28 February 2010, Today’s Zaman

Soner Cagaptay’s war against decency
By Dr. Lawrence Arthur Forman, Rabbi Emeritus, Ohef Sholom Temple
03 March 2010

Çağaptay Uses Foreign Policy in Smear Campaign Against Gülen
By Today's Zaman
02 March 2010

Çağaptay’s latest: ill-informed, ill-intentioned
By Dr. Ihsan Yilmaz, Fatih University
27 February 2010

Is Soner Çağaptay Walking the Tightrope Between Morality and Subservience?
by Mehmet Yılmaz, Assistant editor-in-chief of Zaman Daily
27 May 2009, Today's Zaman

What is behind Çağaptay’s aggression from the other side of the Atlantic?
By Idris Bal, Turgut Özal University
09 March 2010, Today’s Zaman

RDR LETTER-TO-THE-EDITOR: Cagaptay's distorted portrayal of Turkey's Gulen Movement
By Andrew W. Griffin, Editor
March 2, 2010, Red Dirt Report

Neo-Conservatives Attack Islamic Moderate
Bruce Prescott, Executive Director of Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists
March 8, 2010, Ethics Daily

Following the Money Trail Amid Traps
By Abdullah Bozkurt, Analyst
02 March 2010, Today’s Zaman

Link to the articles in full:

http://www.fethullahgulenforum.org/articles/16/responses-to-soner-cagaptay

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Yes I did! Obviously you not!

So tell about what is this "poorly written" essay?

oh yes i'm a little child and need just some attention
i get an infraction of using the f word so equality for everybody on pf
so if i blackmailing you do it also with me where is the problem?

Its more than just poorly written... its s-hittily written. Please refer to my rebuttal above.

[HalloIsBack]

Yes, your english sucks. I didn't use a question mark because it was a statement, and not a question.

This essay sucks, read Randolph's post on why. If you can read it

you wrote

Are you mentally handicapped or something

question: Are you mentally handicapped or something?
statement: You are mentally handicapped or something.

my english sucks?
and if my english sucks english is the language of the worst coloniser ever
as long as my english sucks i'm not colonised
i can read but if you think i cannot you can help me with my reading comprehension

[DaZahroJaam.]

I find that term offensive. A biologist is someone who studies living organism but an Islamist is someone who spews hatred. And some people take pleasure in having someone clarify the difference between Islam and an Islamist to them. Pooh!

[کیش]

you wrote


question: Are you mentally handicapped or something?
statement: You are mentally handicapped or something.

my english sucks?
and if my english sucks english is the language of the worst coloniser ever
as long as my english sucks i'm not colonised
i can read but if you think i cannot you can help me with my reading comprehension

English 101.

Since I already used a question mark before I said if your mentally or something, the punctuation can be omitted.

Do you need more help in English?

[HalloIsBack]

English 101.

Since I already used a question mark before I said if your mentally or something, the punctuation can be omitted.

Do you need more help in English?

I master English 101.
Yes I need more help in English.
If you want you can open a thread and teach me some English. In this thread you can list all my mistakes i'm making.