No Respect for the Army and Police

[Admin Khan]

If your saying the amount of billions spent in afghanistan and almost nothing to show for it is progress, then I guess I am wrong. With that many billions, afghansitan would have been switzerland right now if used efficiently and leadership had a conscience.

If Donald Trump gives a billion dollars Admin Khana and all you do is build a mcdonalds on some corner in new york state and you call it progress, he would fire you and humiliate you and no he would not call that progress.

I never said that it is progress Khushala, with due respect, I have made my stance on nearly every single issue you mentioned very clear. I unequivocally condemn the Afghan and Banana republic and their corrupt government, along with foreign aggressors. My point was something else. Like I said Khushal Jaana, I learned from you, and I'd like to give it a rest, since we are going in circles unfortunately. Never did I claim I support the corrupt Karzai government, something you keep on dragging in the conversation despite I condemning it more than you can possibly fathom.

Pleasure talking to you graana.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Every nation needs a strong military, and armed forces, for deterrence, as you and I know, some nations go as far as building Cyber Armies.

Yes, but these nations also dont have the world's nations with gun toting soldiers building that Army. When Soviet centric troops derived from teh Soviet republics were stationed there and building Najibs army the same argument could have been used.


We are resulting in an infinite loop right now, on one hand we claim Afghanistan needs armed forces to protect ourselves from Iran, Pakistan, yada,yada,yada, on the other hand when there is a rag-tag military set up, we criticize the bones out of it for being incompetent.

Besides incompetence, there is the greater argument of illegitimacy. In the past, when it was autonomous, even under the Shahs Afghans had the wherewithal to build their own forces. The argument being pushed by Karzai and others is that we have limited time as if they are going to build Little America in 10 years. These men have not read history and understood that stable empires take hundreds of years to develop.


Dr.BA sahab, for as long as the Afghan expat community doesn't physically overtake those leading commander positions, we are not in a position to criticize young folks that really just want to defend their nation against aggressors, granted you might think they are serving a geopolitical interest of Karzai, yada yada, but the way I am viewing it is there are some that are strictly concerned with protecting the integrity of Afghanistan, irrespective of foreigners.

Well, I view them more as fifth column citizens who didnt do much here (e.g. Dr. Kakar in the Afghan government currently) and who basically love the perks of being a kabul khan enought to want to sustain intervention at the expense of their adopted and native country. As you know Washington state has a large Afghan refugee population. I recently visted some family in Washington State and was amused to see local failed pharmacy students suddenly acquiring 150,000 to 200,000 dollar jobs poorly translating things and living large like they never had before. A decade before they hade been beating their chests and proudly proclaiming to their freinds that Afghanistan would never be conquered by anyone as it was undefeated and in 2001 warning our colleagues that The Taliban were unbeatable. Now, all of a sudden when the cash flow and military industrial complex gave them a cut - they decided they were Karzai chic. They accomplished little here, and like Bush Jr. I am pretty sure their inability and laziness will render them a burden to Afghan development.

We can tell by the thousands protesting the past few days, that there exists a segment of the Afghan population that genuinely wants to defend the nation, whom for the most part have decided to join the Afghan military en-masse. Such people, who are blood-thirsty, should join the armed forces and try to clean up the corruption from the inside, as opposed to building parallel institutions.

A part of this cleaning would mean that the military needs to flush out Kabul of its technocrat class that has been robbing it. If they were willing to do that, then who wouldnt support them. Instead the brothers of Gul Agha Sherzoy are the heads of this army. So whats that mean for all others?

I agree that it's put together by the US, but with the current building blocks, Afghanistan does NOT need to start all over, it can use the current building block and tweak and optimize it.

That is a fair assessment.

It's silly to consistently criticize it without offering a formidable alternative solution, we just aren't getting anywhere and no progress is being made.

The alternate solution is clear. Ashraf Ghani leaves. Ameen Arsala leaves. Yama Karzai and his family leave. Every single one of these dual passport holding technocrats needs to either go home and quit trying to Kiplingize his native people or face Afghan jail at the hand of its army.

It's better to write forward 10 point plan to improve the current state of the armed forces vs constantly referring to some articles where they have abused the locals.

When the head is rotten, how does one improve it? Karzai has made it clear that he will raise up a storm when its dubious ghost money laundering power base is threatened. A 10 point plan is for autonomous nations - not ones where folks in Kabul coffee shops assume they know what is best for their rural brethren and then use that military to try and impose it against their will (ala the Pew data).

The US, despite being the most powerful nation on earth, a nation that can literally take civilized countries like Britain back to the stone ages if it feels like it, has corruption, sexual harassment, sexual abuse in it's armed forces, nothing is perfect, however, rest assured American intellectuals with their constructive criticism are trying to repair the faulty leaks.


Because it is an autonomous nation built in 400 years of blood and sweat and tears and without an oversight government of the Ottomans or chinese. It is agovernment that once was by and for the people. Afghans should understand that this could take hundreds of years of misery and development but patient and autonomy will yield results. That is the two point plan coupled to regional unity and removal of all these foreign drawn borders across all the istan states.

There is no denial that this is a business, but recognize that Afghanistan is not in a position to negotiate,

Why?

and its armed forces if properly united can one day match foreign aggression. One of the reason why Afghanistan is a push-over is because of its lack of institutions, and baseless criticism without any alternatives. The reason why the US can invade a country, and not hear a squeek from others is because of its technological and military power.

But it has heard more of a squeak. The experts like Pillar and Scheuer and others have made it clear that we lost 2 wars because of that hubris and set if impatient assumptions. We have lost world standing and fear generally. Innocent Americans are dead because of that assumption. No American soldier should ever be sent to inflict foreign aggression and that is why smart men like Ron Paul want to cut the aid to Afghanistan and Pakistan and let them develop and fight out their own battles.

So its not baseless and the recommendation is clear. As democratic Americans we want what is best for our people here and our own native peoples. That best medium is to advocate against interventionalism and let Afghanistna fend for itself and not send Americans there to do the deed the soft handed technocrats cannot do for themselves.


There exists a segment of the Afghan Army that is on a power trip, there also existed, in Kandahar, a segment of the Taliban that was on a power trip as well. They would literally shove a stick up your behind for not having a beard the length they wanted, or punish you for having a cell-phone since the screensaver on your phone is an image which is competing against the power of Allah in terms of 'creations'[not joking];

That is foolish and a day would come when Afghans would root out and work out their own issues amongst themselves if left well alone.

does the aforementioned imply every Talib was that way, or if their fundamental ideology was that way? No, it does not. There were some folks in the Taliban that were smart cookies, the same way there are some bright folks in the armed forces that are trying to build the nation. Nation-building is a tough prospect, and if the country had a solid leadership, it could perhaps be at a better stage right now, although I do want to emphasize that in my opinion, there are folks in the Afghan military that are doing it out of love and respect for Afghanistan, who are tired of bloodshed.

The majority of my angst if for those soldiers that you mentioned in the other threads (dari speaking, harzara etc) who are involved in some of this crap in pashtun areas... that is where my discontent comes from. Its the same in Pakistan where they bus other ethnic groups into FATA to shoot and maim people.

Saying that the military harassed, and assaulted folks in Wardag, which probably did happen, for which the military should be condemned and taught a lesson is understandable. However,using that as a blanket statement for the 'majority' of the force of 300K is equivalent to the Hazaras constantly using the scenario where they claim they were tortured by the Taliban and milking that one case, with that particular sub-group, for decades.

That is true, but nonetheless indigenous groups have a great right to deal with eachother as they wish without outside intervention.

There were some pretty backwards groups in the Taliban, and in the current resistance as we speak, due to illiteracy and other reasons. However recognize that each institution has good and bad, and I am honestly running out of thinking for alternative solutions. If you have an alternative, that is realistic, respected brother I am all ears.

My suggestions are simple:
1. autonomy without the excuse that Pakistan and Iran are waiting to eatup land
2. Karzai and his ilk and the Kabul technocrats get shipped with a one way ticket to the rural country side prisons and a true government by the people emerges
3. The Afghan nation understands that time, blood, sweat, tears, misery etc build a nation. The US lost hundreds of thousands in its own civil war as have many great nations. There is no need for outsiders to claim that Afghans "must take" their help or perish.

[Admin Khan]

"Well, I view them more as fifth column citizens who didnt do much here (e.g. Dr. Kakar in the Afghan government currently) and who basically love the perks of being a kabul khan enought to want to sustain intervention at the expense of their adopted and native country. As you know Washington state has a large Afghan refugee population. I recently visted some family in Washington State and was amused to see local failed pharmacy students suddenly acquiring 150,000 to 200,000 dollar jobs poorly translating things and living large like they never had before. A decade before they hade been beating their chests and proudly proclaiming to their freinds that Afghanistan would never be conquered by anyone as it was undefeated and in 2001 warning our colleagues that The Taliban were unbeatable. Now, all of a sudden when the cash flow and military industrial complex gave them a cut - they decided they were Karzai chic."

This does hurt me, and I have seen a ton of similar examples in New York as well, where even the most staunch Afghans that opposed intervention are now in Afghanistan translating a language they can barely understand(Pashto)for the sake of the $150K job.

Perhaps some in this new generated of Afghans have lost their ghairat?

[Admin Khan]

Let's dissect your suggestions one by one, since finally someone brought forward an alternative:

Autonomy without the excuse that Pakistan and Iran are waiting to eatup land


Explain to me how Pakistan and Iran are NOT waiting to eat Afghan land. History is against you here, but I'd be ecstatic to here you explain to me how resource-rich Afghanistan will be left alone. Be as elaborate as you can, since I eventually will create a sticky thread with your proposals and will e-mail it to as many 'officials' as I can so they can realize an alternative does exist; that was the core my intention. Don't mind me playing devils advocate, such a conversation is far easier in person where you might perhaps sense my sudden sarcasm, switching of tone, and hope of looking for answers.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

"Well, I view them more as fifth column citizens who didnt do much here (e.g. Dr. Kakar in the Afghan government currently) and who basically love the perks of being a kabul khan enought to want to sustain intervention at the expense of their adopted and native country. As you know Washington state has a large Afghan refugee population. I recently visted some family in Washington State and was amused to see local failed pharmacy students suddenly acquiring 150,000 to 200,000 dollar jobs poorly translating things and living large like they never had before. A decade before they hade been beating their chests and proudly proclaiming to their freinds that Afghanistan would never be conquered by anyone as it was undefeated and in 2001 warning our colleagues that The Taliban were unbeatable. Now, all of a sudden when the cash flow and military industrial complex gave them a cut - they decided they were Karzai chic."

This does hurt me, and I have seen a ton of similar examples in New York as well, where even the most staunch Afghans that opposed intervention are now in Afghanistan translating a language they can barely understand(Pashto)for the sake of the $150K job.

Perhaps some in this new generated of Afghans have lost their ghairat?

Well that is why they need educated folks like you to save human beings here and there Admin. No innocent American should have to pay taxes for this war or be sent there and no innocent Afghan should have to suffer its excesses. We ought to stand for the rights of all human beings to be autonomous and not used for cannon fodder or that their life, liberty, and property be squandered in such ways.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Let's dissect your suggestions one by one, since finally someone brought forward an alternative:

Autonomy without the excuse that Pakistan and Iran are waiting to eatup land


Explain to me how Pakistan and Iran are NOT waiting to eat Afghan land. History is against you here, but I'd be ecstatic to here you explain to me how resource-rich Afghanistan will be left alone. Be as elaborate as you can, since I eventually will create a sticky thread with your proposals and will e-mail it to as many 'officials' as I can so they can realize an alternative does exist; that was the core my intention. Don't mind me playing devils advocate, such a conversation is far easier in person where you might perhaps sense my sudden sarcasm, switching of tone, and hope of looking for answers.

Will do. Look forward to it tomorrow. I have to go prep a lecture. Once again, dont take it to heart... these are passionate discussions and we are all brethren here.

[Admin Khan]

Well that is why they need educated folks like you to save human beings here and there Admin. No innocent American should have to pay taxes for this war or be sent there and no innocent Afghan should have to suffer its excesses. We ought to stand for the rights of all human beings to be autonomous and not used for cannon fodder or that their life, liberty, and property be squandered in such ways.

To make this clear, since unfortunately most are misinterpreting what I am saying:

Mashra, I am of the opinion that AFGHANS should fight their OWN WARS, and that AFGHANS should not let OTHERS fight their war, and expecting OTHERS to achieve AFGHAN goals. Afghans should make their OWN decisions, which should be AFGHAN-DRIVEN, AFGHAN-LED, AFGHAN-OWNED.

Am I clear now? or is this Advanced Algorithms class really getting to my head?

[Admin Khan]

Will do. Look forward to it tomorrow. I have to go prep a lecture. Once again, dont take it to heart... these are passionate discussions and we are all brethren here.

BA Sahab, I would have expected you to realize my at times role as serving as the devils advocate has to do with someone as educated as you providing an answer that might answer the parrots who continuously repeat that there are only 2 permutations in the Afghan problem.

This is my intention, and I should be honest about it:

I want a non-staff member(since if I were to write something up, people might think I am biased), to write a dissertation long alternative, which I can sticky here, and perhaps even e-mail to global officials, so they can realize the current intervention is not yielding desired results, and here is a way that might yield results.

I'll wait for your response. If I don't wrestle with you as fast you'd wish me too, know that I have some super-tough finals coming up that as you can imagine I have to prepare for.

I apologize if I was overly aggressive.

Best,

[khushal]

This does hurt me, and I have seen a ton of similar examples in New York as well, where even the most staunch Afghans that opposed intervention are now in Afghanistan translating a language they can barely understand(Pashto)for the sake of the $150K job.

Perhaps some in this new generated of Afghans have lost their ghairat?

When money gets into the picture, ghyrat takes a back seat. I knew bright students that left their studies to take on those jobs and now they are just laying around with no ambition.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Let's dissect your suggestions one by one, since finally someone brought forward an alternative:

Autonomy without the excuse that Pakistan and Iran are waiting to eatup land


Explain to me how Pakistan and Iran are NOT waiting to eat Afghan land. History is against you here, but I'd be ecstatic to here you explain to me how resource-rich Afghanistan will be left alone. Be as elaborate as you can, since I eventually will create a sticky thread with your proposals and will e-mail it to as many 'officials' as I can so they can realize an alternative does exist; that was the core my intention. Don't mind me playing devils advocate, such a conversation is far easier in person where you might perhaps sense my sudden sarcasm, switching of tone, and hope of looking for answers.

Admin I refer you here:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-11/wowra-37575/

And to this Yale Journal's article:

http://yalejournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Article-Gartenstein_Ross-and-Vassefi.pdf

As I have continuously and unpopularly noted, if we are to accept the nation state paradigm (which I do not by the way) that Mellatis and Karzai and the former minister Daud were proponents of... then history shows that the nation state of Pakistan received a series of diplomatic and even military gestures that were initiated not by Pakistan (I want to reiterate a failed nation state that I do not believe in).

The only way out of this conundrum is to not accept Karzai and his acolytes view of the problem and to understand that colonialism never ended. We see this situation in Africa as well where nation states were left with governments sympathetic to the system hoisted by colonialists by invaders. What was left behind were local land grabs and disputes leading to perpetual misery.

What has happened is that Karzai has turned back the clock to the daud and Zahir khan era. That same set of punches I detailed were what led Bhutto to formulate the idiotic strategic depth policy (when what would have been reasonable would have been to formulate simply a strong noninterventionist and border defense policy). At this point, Pakistan has likely decided to harden its stance and feels validated ala recent events. This approach was utterly idiotic and merely Karzai and Razeq and the technocrats way of diverting from their failures.

Regarding Iran. Mir Wais Neka certainly showed Iranians a thing or two about intrigue and definitly saw to it that his descendents would seize Ispahan. Traditionally, it is true that the mughals and iran dualed over Afghan territory. The goals then though and the goals of the nation states of Pakistan and Iran differ in some ways.

Pakistan's strategy centers around strategic depth perpetually. Iran is basically readying itself for an impending clash that may come with the US and Israel and definitly took note of the "beast of Kandahar" being used from Mr. karzai's own soil:

What could Iran learn from the "Beast of Kandahar"? | FP Passport

So, you are asking for a way forward to Mr. Karzai and officials:

1) Quit trying to divert attention from your own poor governance with games that in the past proved lethal to all involved. Daud was buried unceremoniously in a pit after being murdered and the whole world suffered from this idiotic concept of strategic balancing.

2) Pakistan is a nation for rent. it is concerned with its own survival and has no regard for Islam. Its military cares for one and one thing alone as does its ISI: for the perpetual survival of the state in one form or another.

Quit putting politics in front of practicality and turn the game to a more quiet one. These idiotic incursions are cementing the resolve of Pakistanis to pursue their prior policy. If the US continues its supply lines for 9 bases through there its a perpetual cash cow and a way to divert anti state militants endlessly.

Pakistan is willing to sell its asset up the river if it had assurances from whatever government, even a Hindu one, on its durand border that yielded its strategic goals of not being in a pincer hold.

Bold alliances through trade and divert the business gradient of the tribes of Chaman to kandahar, Jalalabad, and Kabul. Let the market work its magic on the alliances of the FATA tribes.

In the mean time, recall that the most tumultous period in Pakistan's history was when it had to reflect internally, NOT externally. Pakistanis are their own worst enemies and have in the past destroyed their own state when they were left alone. Greed resulted in one party not accepting another ethnic groups victorious candidate leading to the secession of Bengladesh. The horrible crimes that followed showed just how fractured the state really was. The more Pakistanis are left to reflect on their piss poor governance and the more quiet and patient you learn to be... the greater yield you will see.

3) That being said, strong border defense is paramount. A sense of justice has to pervade this. Tribes on both sides of the border have to be prevented from conducting petty land grabs on the fluid durand border.

4) Regarding Iran, a unite Afghan government in this hugely sunni country has to watch how closely iran funds and backs hazaras and other players. It can easily deal with that issue. Until the Afghan state is autonomous and strong it should not deal in projects that make Iran feel threatened about certain resources in the era of international sanctions. It should also not march to the tune of the western allies with respect to iran and take a noninterventional stance.

5) Divert ISAF and CENTCOM and NATO or whatever monicker they adhere to to the borders for purely border defense reasons. Let the rural Afghans do what they have always done - which is govern themselves in whatever system they please. No one has a right to impose secular democracy as it is a system that took nearly a millenia to take hold even in the West. To impose it is to cause serious backlash.

In this way, NATO can watch their nuclear ghetto dog to their hearts content and still have regional interests.

Have NATO build all of its 9 bases at the border if it insists on staying. Make the Afghan nation feel autonomous and do not bow to public world perceptions on morality and what not. Be an autonomous leader in the vein of your own people.

6) Model your army and its doctrines off Switzerland:
"There may be various reasons why the Nazis did not invade Switzerland, but one of those reasons is that every Swiss man had a rifle at home. The Nazi invasion plans themselves state that, because of the Swiss gun ownership and shooting skills, that country would be difficult to conquer and occupy. The European countries occupied by the Nazis usually had strict gun controls before the war, and their registration lists facilitated confiscation of firearms and, in many cases, execution of their owners."
Guns, Crime, and the Swiss - by Stephen P. Halbrook