No Respect for the Army and Police

[tor_khan]

Inherent difference in the case of both pakistan and afghanistan is that in both these nations (e.g. Khybar rifles) its an imposed police and army by an outside superpower. So in effect, its not the Afghan nation starting from somewhere - its Mr. Karzai starting from somewhere alongside his technocrats and Afghan American and British Afghan emigres who are making a cash killing off this. And that is exactly why those villagers in Wardag were getting maimed, harrassed, and hurt - Karzai himself had to deflect the blame into the Americans when it turned out they were indigenous organized forces by the Kharijaan. I think what Khushaal means is that starting from somewhere as in Karzai's somewhere is bound to land the watan in hot water in the long term. Most of these folks that are in there though are in there to make buko bucks which is why karzai repeatedly has had to reassure them of no 2014 drawdown.

Barakzai Sahab,

Few people in the west or the east will work simply out of conviction to a cause or pure charity. There is a price attached to the exchange of knowledge/skills. So what is the place of the Afghan diaspora returning to Afghanistan? There are considerable skills in the diaspora that are needed in Afghanistan, but to get them to return, they will expect hiked up salaries.

We can be sentimental about doing things for a greater cause, but isn't the truth that a good number of users of this site live outside the Pashtun belt exactly because the fiscal opportunities were elsewhere?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

There is a dramatic difference between a person in Afghanistan making a living as an engineer in Germany and folks like Taj Ayubi who was at best a furniture salesman in Virginia getting major contracts due to nepotism. Same goes for Mahmud Karzai amongst others. And there is a dramatic difference between an accomplished man beating out natives academically and making a profit versus a person who refuses to work a job and live of those simple means and these emigres who are doing mercenary work in a war environment because they think themselves as Khans unworthy of pumping gas. They loot the taxpayer money and like Mr Sadat take "ghost money" to send their kids to university abroad while the rural Afghan sees nadda. There was an article written in the New Yorker not long ago by an American teacher who lamented how all of his students in his institution derived from the emigre class while boys aged 9 sold corn outside of the school.


Basically Tor Khan comparing an immigrant to a mercenary emigre who thinks he can "school his little brown brother" ala Kipling is a noncomparison. The former contribute in meaningful ways to their adopted society and the latter leach tax money and are inept (hence the 13 years of failure )

Barakzai Sahab,

Few people in the west or the east will work simply out of conviction to a cause or pure charity. There is a price attached to the exchange of knowledge/skills. So what is the place of the Afghan diaspora returning to Afghanistan? There are considerable skills in the diaspora that are needed in Afghanistan, but to get them to return, they will expect hiked up salaries.

We can be sentimental about doing things for a greater cause, but isn't the truth that a good number of users of this site live outside the Pashtun belt exactly because the fiscal opportunities were elsewhere?

[Admin Khan]

Inherent difference in the case of both pakistan and afghanistan is that in both these nations (e.g. Khybar rifles) its an imposed police and army by an outside superpower.

Every nation needs a strong military, and armed forces, for deterrence, as you and I know, some nations go as far as building Cyber Armies. We are resulting in an infinite loop right now, on one hand we claim Afghanistan needs armed forces to protect ourselves from Iran, Pakistan, yada,yada,yada, on the other hand when there is a rag-tag military set up, we criticize the bones out of it for being incompetent. Dr.BA sahab, for as long as the Afghan expat community doesn't physically overtake those leading commander positions, we are not in a position to criticize young folks that really just want to defend their nation against aggressors, granted you might think they are serving a geopolitical interest of Karzai, yada yada, but the way I am viewing it is there are some that are strictly concerned with protecting the integrity of Afghanistan, irrespective of foreigners. We can tell by the thousands protesting the past few days, that there exists a segment of the Afghan population that genuinely wants to defend the nation, whom for the most part have decided to join the Afghan military en-masse. Such people, who are blood-thirsty, should join the armed forces and try to clean up the corruption from the inside, as opposed to building parallel institutions. I agree that it's put together by the US, but with the current building blocks, Afghanistan does NOT need to start all over, it can use the current building block and tweak and optimize it. It's silly to consistently criticize it without offering a formidable alternative solution, we just aren't getting anywhere and no progress is being made. It's better to write forward 10 point plan to improve the current state of the armed forces vs constantly referring to some articles where they have abused the locals. The US, despite being the most powerful nation on earth, a nation that can literally take civilized countries like Britain back to the stone ages if it feels like it, has corruption, sexual harassment, sexual abuse in it's armed forces, nothing is perfect, however, rest assured American intellectuals with their constructive criticism are trying to repair the faulty leaks.

So in effect, its not the Afghan nation starting from somewhere - its Mr. Karzai starting from somewhere alongside his technocrats and Afghan American and British Afghan emigres who are making a cash killing off this.

There is no denial that this is a business, but recognize that Afghanistan is not in a position to negotiate, and its armed forces if properly united can one day match foreign aggression. One of the reason why Afghanistan is a push-over is because of its lack of institutions, and baseless criticism without any alternatives. The reason why the US can invade a country, and not hear a squeek from others is because of its technological and military power.

And that is exactly why those villagers in Wardag were getting maimed, harrassed, and hurt - Karzai himself had to deflect the blame into the Americans when it turned out they were indigenous organized forces by the Kharijaan. I think what Khushaal means is that starting from somewhere as in Karzai's somewhere is bound to land the watan in hot water in the long term. Most of these folks that are in there though are in there to make buko bucks which is why karzai repeatedly has had to reassure them of no 2014 drawdown.

There exists a segment of the Afghan Army that is on a power trip, there also existed, in Kandahar, a segment of the Taliban that was on a power trip as well. They would literally shove a stick up your behind for not having a beard the length they wanted, or punish you for having a cell-phone since the screensaver on your phone is an image which is competing against the power of Allah in terms of 'creations'[not joking]; does the aforementioned imply every Talib was that way, or if their fundamental ideology was that way? No, it does not. There were some folks in the Taliban that were smart cookies, the same way there are some bright folks in the armed forces that are trying to build the nation. Nation-building is a tough prospect, and if the country had a solid leadership, it could perhaps be at a better stage right now, although I do want to emphasize that in my opinion, there are folks in the Afghan military that are doing it out of love and respect for Afghanistan, who are tired of bloodshed.

Saying that the military harassed, and assaulted folks in Wardag, which probably did happen, for which the military should be condemned and taught a lesson is understandable. However,using that as a blanket statement for the 'majority' of the force of 300K is equivalent to the Hazaras constantly using the scenario where they claim they were tortured by the Taliban and milking that one case, with that particular sub-group, for decades. There were some pretty backwards groups in the Taliban, and in the current resistance as we speak, due to illiteracy and other reasons. However recognize that each institution has good and bad, and I am honestly running out of thinking for alternative solutions. If you have an alternative, that is realistic, respected brother I am all ears.

[DaZahroJaam.]

it's like teaching a child to spit at a parent's face because he heard them arguing the other day. you don't get the government fixed by encouraging people to break traffic laws and then beat police officers in the middle of the street on top of it.
that doesn't fix the problem. and if you can't fix a problem, why screw it further?? at whose cost are you making the current government look bad??

[khushal]

it's like teaching a child to spit at a parent's face because he heard them arguing the other day. you don't get the government fixed by encouraging people to break traffic laws and then beat police officers in the middle of the street on top of it.
that doesn't fix the problem. and if you can't fix a problem, why screw it further?? at whose cost are you making the current government look bad??

You keep repeating the Karzai magic trick, but your fooling no one. The old "Don't criticize me for what Im doing, look there, Pakistan is attacking you" trick.
Civil disobedience is the best way to make the government fix its behavior. If everyone in the country was like the guy in the vid, problem solved.

[khushal]

Logical fallacy. The burden of proof is on you to show me that the 'vast majority' is corrupt.

I criticize both nations, both armed forces. However, my criticism is rather constructive cause I genuinely wish well for the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan. However, senseless rambling without evidence is NOT fixing the problem. I concur that there is corruption, I agree there is work to be done, however, every nation had to start from somewhere, and there is always room for improvement.

So do you think the afghans should accept this as a necessary evil to get their society back on track:
REPORTERS NOTEBOOK: REPORT EXPOSES CORRUPTION AND CHILD ABUSE BY AFGHAN ‘POLICE’ | dmnewsi
On our side? Afghan police 'sell weapons to Taliban, are addicted to drugs and kidnap and rape young boys' | Mail Online

[Admin Khan]

No, I never alluded to that, and that was never my core point. No true scotsman fallacy.

[DaZahroJaam.]

You keep repeating the Karzai magic trick, but your fooling no one. The old "Don't criticize me for what Im doing, look there, Pakistan is attacking you" trick.
Civil disobedience is the best way to make the government fix its behavior. If everyone in the country was like the guy in the vid, problem solved.

i swear, every time i exchange a few sentences with you, i end up regretting it big time. for the fifth time, just because karzai's government is incompetent, it should not mean for afghans to start acting like morons on the streets. civilized societies work with each other and bring about change. why can't you encourage them to cooperate with each other and then change karzai?? how come only afghan police officers end up getting beaten up in streets??
because they don't turn around and shoot you on spot the way a nato officer would?? why is it that you people have no sense of compassion or sympathy for each other?? it's like you people are a superior breed of munafeqat and shar...whole lot of a different deal than the normal thing. you can't sleep at night unless there is chaos in the streets and people are killing each other like dogs.
i couldn't care any less for karzai. what bothers me is the amount of effort every single one of you well educated yet ****ed up morons are willing to put in to making a situation worse than it already is. for ****'s sake, you try an idea for over 30 years and then it does not work. why not a different approach??

and good bye. i am not dancing in circles with you over this.

[Admin Khan]

The Afghan Army is for the Afghan people, the Afghan police is for the Afghan people, not for Karzai, or any other individual. There are problems with the aforementioned institutions, but slapping an officer is NOT the solution, in fact, many are inadvertently falling into the trap of regional countries, i.e Pakistan who had told the USA that they prefer Afghanistan NOT to have an armed forces, perhaps so its easy to treat it like its fifth province? Karzai will be gone soon, but the Afghan Armed Forces and its men will remain.

[khushal]

The Afghan Army is for the Afghan people, the Afghan police is for the Afghan people, not for Karzai, or any other individual. There are problems with the aforementioned institutions, but slapping an officer is NOT the solution, in fact, many are inadvertently falling into the trap of regional countries, i.e Pakistan who had told the USA that they prefer Afghanistan NOT to have an armed forces, perhaps so its easy to treat it like its fifth province? Karzai will be gone soon, but the Afghan Armed Forces and its men will remain.

I don't think your seeing the reality of the situation. What your implying by accepting a necessary evil just so Afghanistan can have an army to defend itself against Pakistan and Iran is a lose-lose scenario. The afghan army sole purpose is to put the afghan people in check because the afghan army is not afghan based, not afghan origin. What your implying is similar to the Chinese building an Army for Washington and Jefferson so they can defend themselves against the Brits but the problem is the Chinese would have never chosen Washington and Jefferson as "their men." They would have chosen some corrupt piece of shyt that had no grass roots support in America. Do you think the American public would have just stood and watched and accepted that particular corrupt piece of shyt or would they have tried their best to correct their foundation.

The main point is the violence that is coming from the afghan populace is not because of pakistan or iran but its from with in, look inside ones own house, there is something wrong with it. If your president and top level heads of department are on the payrolls of outside intelligence agencies, one can not blame the ordinary afghan to erupt in anger and react violently.

http://www.mei.edu/content/afghanistan-where-chaos-king-and-plunder-privilege

[khushal]

i swear, every time i exchange a few sentences with you, i end up regretting it big time. for the fifth time, just because karzai's government is incompetent, it should not mean for afghans to start acting like morons on the streets. civilized societies work with each other and bring about change. why can't you encourage them to cooperate with each other and then change karzai?? how come only afghan police officers end up getting beaten up in streets??
because they don't turn around and shoot you on spot the way a nato officer would?? why is it that you people have no sense of compassion or sympathy for each other?? it's like you people are a superior breed of munafeqat and shar...whole lot of a different deal than the normal thing. you can't sleep at night unless there is chaos in the streets and people are killing each other like dogs.
i couldn't care any less for karzai. what bothers me is the amount of effort every single one of you well educated yet ****ed up morons are willing to put in to making a situation worse than it already is. for ****'s sake, you try an idea for over 30 years and then it does not work. why not a different approach??

and good bye. i am not dancing in circles with you over this.

The atrocities that NATO has committed is nothing compared to the atrocities that their prodigy the Afghan Army has committed. The Afghan peoples reaction is a violent one because the Afghan Army is violent and brutal against its own population.

[Admin Khan]

I don't think your seeing the reality of the situation. What your implying by accepting a necessary evil just so Afghanistan can have an army to defend itself against Pakistan and Iran is a lose-lose scenario. The afghan army sole purpose is to put the afghan people in check because the afghan army is not afghan based, not afghan origin.

Lol.


Khushal,
With due respect, you failed to grasp my point, and your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I was trying to say, you are in fact answering an entirely different question never asked. Either re-read what I wrote first, and try to respond to my initial inquiries, including me asking you for evidence about one of the claims you made, or perhaps I will walk away from this one since I don't want to go in circles.

Thank you for your time grana.

[khushal]

Lol.
Khushal,
With due respect, you failed to grasp my point, and your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I was trying to say, you are in fact answering an entirely different question never asked. Either re-read what I wrote first, and try to respond to my initial inquiries, including me asking you for evidence about one of the claims you made, or perhaps I will walk away from this one since I don't want to go in circles.
Thank you for your time grana.

I get your point. Your point is that Afghanistan needs an Afghan Army because it needs to defend itself against regional players like Pakistan and Iran who use Afghanistans weakness for their own interests. So your theory is that in order for Afghanistan to protect itself from those two menaces, Afghanistan needs some superpower like the Brits or the Soviet Union or the US to build an Afghan Army to defend itself against the two mentioned regional players.

Well Admin khana, your theory has been played out in the 80's and it failed, it was also played out in the 1840's with the Brits installing Shah Shuja because the regional menaces at that time was Persia and Russia and it also failed. Trying a failed theory again and again and expecting a different result is insanity.

And I know your response to that as well, these are modern times, the times where tribes came to the aid of the state are long gone. Afghanistan needs a modern army who can fight Pakistans modern army. So far in the reports all we have seen is that the "modern afghan army" has only been able to kill and terrorize afghan citizens and have not been able to kill one Pakistani or Iranian soldier even though Pakistan is indiscriminately shelling afghan villages in Kunar and Iran is illegally infringing on Afghanistan's water rights in the west of the country with Karzai's blessing.

Your theory Admin Khana is falling apart similar to Pakistans theory of its existence is falling apart. Pakistan's Army is no longer used to defend itself against India, it is now used to kill its own citizens just like how they did in the 1970's in Bangladesh. Even if your theory was working out today, long term its still a failure. history has proven it.

And it does not take a genius to figure out that afghanstans corruption is widespread and that the majority in the government and army are corrupt not to mention its no.3 on thelist of most corrupt countries.
Corruption widespread in Afghanistan, UNODC survey says

and here is how it happened. When you pump a tsunami of cash into a country, corruption is inevitable:

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/04/02-5

[Admin Khan]

Khushal Khaana, too many assumptions about what I think, feel, are being made, which is unfortunate and counter-productive. I'm going to have to throw in the towel, and chalk this one up. Pleasure talking to you, great learning from you. If I see an attempt of someone actually answer what I was trying to say, in regards to the various themes brought forward, that would help.

40 years of disrespect, slapping around traffic police officers, building parallel institutions, criticizing every single thing the nation has, hasn't done much for the nation -- which was the core of the discussion.

[khushal]

If your saying the amount of billions spent in afghanistan and almost nothing to show for it is progress, then I guess I am wrong. With that many billions, afghansitan would have been switzerland right now if used efficiently and leadership had a conscience.

If Donald Trump gives a billion dollars Admin Khana and all you do is build a mcdonalds on some corner in new york state and you call it progress, he would fire you and humiliate you and no he would not call that progress.