Heavy clashes between Afghan and Pakistani troops in Goshta

[Talal]

Lol a helicopter Admin Khan forgetting the other exaggerations of 9 10 soldiers how do you down a helicopter with a 9 mm..they'd be putting it in the national museum if they downed a helo..it was a border skirmish im sorry that a guy had to die all the more reason in my opinion we need to be more sensible about this and not treat it like a game

[khushal]

Didn't the U.S. Army let paki militants cross into Afghanistan?

This is what i am hearing...

The US Army gave pakistani forces the check posts when they withdrew from the area. The US army currently is withdrawing from rural areas.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I am utterly astounded at the level of analysis here. Neither is it cool headed, pragmatic, and calculating - nor is it prescient.

Here is why. Lets talk about events that occur in AfPak; IranPak; AfAryana.

There are a few media outlets that report on these events:
Press TV which is Iranian driven and has a tendency to report without adequate source or confirmation (e.g. fake claims of US troop atrocities)
The Pakistani papers like the Nation and Dawn (The latter appears to have a liberal bias and accuracy of both is questionable though the former has carried articles from the well known journalist Rahim Yusufzai)
The Afghan papers which have multiplied extensively but Pajwhok and Tolo are the commonly cited ones here though Daily Outlook of Afghanistan also is. Their accuracy is severely questionable as well.

"The agendas of media outlets–whether real or perceived–are well known among audiences. Certain channels are regarded as being anti-Kabul government (Pajhwok), controlled by Taliban (certain radio channels), or influenced by foreigners, including the United States (Tolo) and Iran (Afghan Voice Agency)."

http://theglobalobservatory.org/anal...-pitfalls.html

Then of course there is the US media. While Judy Miller has irreparably damaged the reputation of the NY Times in its accuracy - when it doesnt come to some specific US endeavor or foreign policy goal - these outlets do try to do some fact finding.

So now - the most recent data, if accurate shows us the summary of the following:

1) Pakistan has been shelling Afghan territory periodically and indiscriminantly for months and months. This is a doubtless a crime on par with the crime of the occupation of FATA. Collective punishment for the perceived notion that the region is shielding militants is in no way a justification for shelling villages and cities of another country - some of the poorest and most destitute in the world.

2) That being said - we thus far have no reliable source showing the supposed deaths of Pakistani soldiers. Rather what we do have is the death of many Afghan policemen in recent days secondary to IEDs - and in this skirmish one dead Afghan policeman.

The statement in question - for those that wish to actually validate and verify sources is the following:

"The border police spokesman, speaking on the condition of anonymity in line with his agency’s policy, said there were unconfirmed reports that nine Pakistani militiamen had been killed in the clash, with took place in the Goshta district."

This is from the NY Times article

The NY Times report matches the Pak outlet sources regarding 2 Pakistani constibularies.

The article goes on to show the general haplessness of the Afghan forces over even minor matters. Take for instance this idiocy noted at the end of the article:

"The border clash came a day after the reopening of the major crossing between Afghanistan and Pakistan, at Torkham on the Grand Trunk Road between Kabul and Peshawar. It had been closed for two days after a fistfight between Afghan and Pakistani border guards over the Pakistanis’ refusal to let an Afghan woman enter without a visa.
Pakistan closed the crossing for two days until the Afghans apologized. According to Col. Enayatullah Abdullah, an Afghan Border Police official at Torkham, four Afghan patients died waiting at the crossing to go to hospitals in Pakistan."

To show the level of "hawaai" firing - the same official appears to have Mr. Mahbob the same information with a slight change:

"At least 10 Pakistani border guards were killed and wounded in the ferocious fire exchange in Goshta district, the source said on condition of anonymity. “One Afghan was martyred and five others were wounded.”"

http://www.pajhwok.com/en/2013/05/02...s-clash-goshta

Its like that scene in Brave Heart where William Wallace jokes with the crowd about how the mythology around him had grown to make him 7 feet tall and able to consume British legions with fireballs from his anus.

So now, regarding the protests, one can hardly blame the denizens of these areas to be pissed for the human rights violations of the Pakistani Army and a large portion of this public sentiment likely relates to the repeated abuses and degradations Afghans have had to face on the border (such as that woman being denied entry and the subsequent humiliation of the 2 days or border closing until an apology). This has affected life, liberty and property of not the elites like Sherzai and Karzai but he average Afghan.

That being said - here is what this action accomplished with deeper thought and analysis:

1) For all intents and purposes 2 wounded Pakistanis and 1 dead Afghan - This is all the more likely because Pakistan wants nothing MORE than an excuse to reshut the border and NATO conduits to squeeze out the remaining few drops of currency they can get from US largesse. When Pak soldiers were killed previously - they created an open hooplah about it. These events galvanize Pakistani sentiment and create more, not less internal support for the Pakistani Army from their citizenry. You wont see fewer Mohmand tribal militias aiding the Pak Army - you end up seeing more. If anything Pakistan would have loved a few of their own dispensable border troops killed. Who knows? Maybe a few Mohmand militia men got killed and maybe a deeper investigation will reveal 10 or 9 or 8 or whatever is being said of uniformed Pak soldiers getting killed - I've been wrong a lot and would prefer to stand corrected. But for now the plethora of sources NBC, VOA, BBC, Stars and Stripes (The American Military Outlet), and Pak news sources are all sticking to 2 injured and 1 dead.

2) Pakistan quietly goes on with greater zeal and vigor and much more internal support for its strategy of milking aid and providing a base for the Afghan led insurgency. If not before, it is now thoroughly convinced that its strategic depth policy is the right one for it to pursue and chase after again.

3) Its tested the mettle of the ANP and ANA together and cajoled, instigated, and threatened it into premature action... and what it saw was what the Taliban noted - a poorly performing force whose elite unit of troops lost outposts just a few weeks prior:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat...an_nationa.php

"Today an estimated 200 Taliban fighters overran a military outpost manned by what The New York Times called one of the Afghan Army's "highly regarded" combat units. The Taliban attack took place at a small outpost in the Narai district that was maintained by soldiers from a battalion of the 201st Military Corps, Pajhwok Afghan News reported.
Reports indicate that 12 or 13 Afghan soldiers were killed and two more were captured by the Taliban. Five Taliban fighters were reported killed during the assault. The Taliban claimed the attack, and said 15 Afghan "puppet" soldiers were killed and the outpost was "burned down after it was conquered.""

If that practical example of how one loses a cat mouse game was not enough:

The most recent analysis by NATO was all the more troubling:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-8555238.html

"Thousands of recruits are quitting the newly formed Afghan police and armed forces every month, raising fears over their ability to protect the emerging democracy when coalition troops leave the country in less than two years' time. For every 10 new soldiers recruited to the Afghan National Army (ANA), at least three are lost because they have been sacked, captured or killed in action, new figures have revealed. British officials admit that current "attrition rates", with more than 5,000 soldiers quitting every month, threaten the force's long-term effectiveness."

What is the way forward and why is this strategy generally a failing one by Mr. Karzai?

Well, Mr. Karzai will plan on repeating the same mistakes made by predecessors under the false assumption that his strategic balancing will afford him a position of strength. Yet to date, the US has never stopped Pakistan from ever shelling into Afghanistan - feeling content enough to have Munter lodge some complaints that fall on deaf ears. If in his estimate Pakistan is one power and America is the other - his attempt to dual these two off has failed miserably as the latter and the former are generally working in tandem to keep supply lines wide open. Through nearly a decade of seeing their dependency on south supply routes be occasionally threatened and developing some northern alternatives - the fact of the matter is the Americans have been content not to make major alterations in their current scheme.

Despite a political science and history major from Simla India, Mr. Karzai appears content to NOT read history and to see how Daud's actions previously, despite having the charismatic Faqir e Ipi at his disposal did led to his eventual attempt to court Pakistan which had already made the decision that he was an unreliable partner and had to go.

The better part of valor would have been to truly focus internally, build up resources and make sure your military is succeeding, not just in Dunford's propaganda outlets but in reality. To be Machiavellian, feign a generally peaceful face to the Pakistanis and play their own game against them by offering them a carrot now and then (the same ploy they use with the US when giving them coordinates for a Wazir target now and then). Become independent as soon as possible to remove the blood supply that sustains the pakistani economy (US Aid) to give the US more room to sanction Pakistan. A large portion of Pakistan's economic health is also based on immigrants abroad who send money back home - sanctions would penalize this and bite into that snaring the other carotid artery of Pakistan's blood supply. Watch as internal ethnic strife and turmoil as well as rampant corruption forces the Pakistani state to look internally and make its denizens realize that its enemies are not Afghans or Indians but their own leaders and political class ---> watch ensuing instability ---> Similar scenario to East Pakistan/West Pakistan occurs. In the mean time - cajole Iran into supporting, tacitly, its shiite brethren with aid and arms in pakistan so that the focus falls off Afghanistan. Also, quietly but assuredly develop trade with the FATA tribes and the Chaman border tribes with the former being able to send their nuts and fruit harvest into kabul and latter their other trade goods to Qandahar building economic dependency of these parties onto the Afghan market. Ensure that the economic livelihood of FATA and Chaman hinge upon and center around Kabul and Qandahar so that these folks will have to side with Afghanistan in a setting of turmoil. Equally as quietly, wait as a failing state actually fails. Such intrigue takes patience and perseverance and thought processes that seem foreign to Karzai and his ilk.

And Azmal, you're still a dumb**** farsiban so please go back and skulk in your roach hole should you decide to comment.

[JAMALUDEEN]

Lol a helicopter Admin Khan forgetting the other exaggerations of 9 10 soldiers how do you down a helicopter with a 9 mm..they'd be putting it in the national museum if they downed a helo..it was a border skirmish im sorry that a guy had to die all the more reason in my opinion we need to be more sensible about this and not treat it like a game

As if Pakistanis won't hide the truth to save a face. . They have been doing it for decades.

[Admin Khan]

Lol a helicopter Admin Khan forgetting the other exaggerations of 9 10 soldiers how do you down a helicopter with a 9 mm..they'd be putting it in the national museum if they downed a helo..it was a border skirmish im sorry that a guy had to die all the more reason in my opinion we need to be more sensible about this and not treat it like a game

LAWLZ, are you trying to act like Pakistan hasn't had their equipment lit to fire before? Do I need to remind you what the Taliban has been doing to your equipment the past decade? Remember Karachi, when your million dollar equipment was on fire? It's not like the Banana republic has top-notch security in place, we've seen time and time again that PTT can wage an attack at any given instance, so I don't take the claim of a Paki heli on fire as a utopian claim; there might be very well evidence that did this happen. Unfortunately, knowing how Pakistan restricts journalists from reporting, we might not see the truth in the lime-light, despite a ton of Afghan media sources reporting this to occur. In other words, I am telling you what is being reported, and the pictures that are surfacing. The Banana republic, historically speaking, is known to distort history and current affairs to hide it's face. The backward nation just killed a prosecutor, who had some real dirt on the military regime. Let's not make Pakistan appear as if it's a Singapore or something, aside from it being an international headache for the world, we all know nations, even great nations, try to damage the casualties for psychological and moral reasons; so it might appear like an exaggeration to you, but I find your claim of only 'two wounded' just as bit of a downplay of what really happened.

[Admin Khan]

As if Pakistanis won't hide the truth to save a face. . They have been doing it for decades.

Mind-boggling. I'm not saying for sure the Afghan media is 100% accurate for 10 dead, but our Pakistani folks want to pull the classic, "None dead, but 2 wounded".

[JAMALUDEEN]

[Michin Khel]

Afghan side has claimed several times that Pakistan has infilterated 45 km into Afghan territory. If you check the durand line agreement, durand line along mohmand agency was not demarcated as amir abdul rehman wanted the whole mohmand territory, which british refused. If you check out all the border clashes between Pakistan and Afghanistan, most of them have taken place along mohmand agency. Interestingly the breadth of mohmand agency from east to west is roughly 45 km. Is it a coincidence?
How far are these check posts really built inside Afghan territory?. Durand line along mohmand agency is still not demarcated?...In video of aryana tv, the mohmand villagers of the Afghan side were saying that Pakistan has given them Pakistani NIC and other packages....?
I dont think Pakistan is ambitious to occupy territories of Afghanistan, FATA is too much headache for them, most probably those ISAF check posts are stretagically very important and they gladly took it over from ISAF...they thought that Afghans are taken for granted, but their reaction must have surprised them...
Pakistan army do hide the casualties but its not the core issue. Neither Afghans should celebrate on deaths of few pakistani soldiers, taliban have killed thousands of pakistani soldiers without heavy weaponry....What would happen if Pakistan decide to seal the border?...you people know that Pakistan army would not engage with ANA in any kind of battle or war, they would simply seal the border...
Both ANSF and Pak military are supported by U.S and their common enemy is taliban. Future of both ANA and Pak army is bleak, TTP have decided to participate in annual spring operation against ISAF togather with afghan taliban, negating the pakistani concept of good and bad taliban,
TTP joins Afghan Taliban to wage spring offensive - thenews.com.pk

[BarakzaiAbdali]

At the end of the day, this is a clear instance of mismanagement and lack of governance by Karzai.

Lets think about this for a second - the man can throw a child like tantrum for days on end to demand transfer of Bagram over to his own thugs (my suspicions are that the Americans treat their prisoners far better than the ANA and associated parties who have been cited by human rights watch time and time again).

Then he can give a speech about "our interests" and "their interests" and even agree to jeapordize what the Iraqi Arabs did not (the sacred right of immunity for crimes only afforded to certain diplomats at best).

Why would he not, in addition to what I suggested above, have used his main focus, main priority and main energy demanding JOINT action and adherance to the UN charter to protect individual nation states. If the US is utilizing that same charter to build up forces near the Syrian border and aid the Turks in military drills - why would Karzai not - if he is attempting to ground the Americans in Afghanistan for generations to come - use that to his advantage? On the one hand, the man is demanding that they stick around and that the turn over an obsolete base, but then he and his technocrats remain oblivious to drone flights above Iran from afghan territory and completely refuse to utilize the American firepower toward their adversary. If Tolo news is correct and ISAF turned the checkpoints over to Pakistanis per Mr. Seddiqi's statement - Karzai should be raising hell and should be shouting to the hills regarding the fact that he already pawned off military autonomy - he pawned off immunity - so now in the very least ISAF should respond to violations of the UN charter and territorial integrity of one of its members right?

Alas, Karzai is doing what he always does - in a time of turmoil and great loss - he tried to deflect criticism abroad. He took a real issue - a VERY REAL human rights abuse issue of collective punishment that should be taken to the Hague - and ended up ordering an incursion that was a lose lose situation.

The only silver lining in all of this is that these border city regions have become so allergic to Pakistan's transgressions and aggression and shelling that they now appear to have decided that anything and anyone that will rid them of these bombs raining down on their innocent countrymen (whether it be ANP or ANA or ISAF or whoever) is worth praising. And who can blame them?

Unfortunately, Karzai took that energy and pretty much squandered it - revealing what I wrote above. Hopefully - since he is privately telling his technocrats not to be worried about 2014 withdrawals and that it will never happen - he will quit harping on withdrawals from Wardag and claiming he will block immunity and instead demand REAL action so that a real capable force can intervene to protect the populace of Jalalabad.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Afghan side has claimed several times that Pakistan has infilterated 45 km into Afghan territory. If you check the durand line agreement, durand line along mohmand agency was not demarcated as amir abdul rehman wanted the whole mohmand territory, which british refused. If you check out all the border clashes between Pakistan and Afghanistan, most of them have taken place along mohmand agency. Interestingly the breadth of mohmand agency from east to west is roughly 45 km. Is it a coincidence?
How far are these check posts really built inside Afghan territory?. Durand line along mohmand agency is still not demarcated?...In video of aryana tv, the mohmand villagers of the Afghan side were saying that Pakistan has given them Pakistani NIC and other packages....?
I dont think Pakistan is ambitious to occupy territories of Afghanistan, FATA is too much headache for them, most probably those ISAF check posts are stretagically very important and they gladly took it over from ISAF...they thought that Afghans are taken for granted, but their reaction must have surprised them...
Pakistan army do hide the casualties but its not the core issue. Neither Afghans should celebrate on deaths of few pakistani soldiers, taliban have killed thousands of pakistani soldiers without heavy weaponry....What would happen if Pakistan decide to seal the border?...you people know that Pakistan army would not engage with ANA in any kind of battle or war, they would simply seal the border...
Both ANSF and Pak military are supported by U.S and their common enemy is taliban. Future of both ANA and Pak army is bleak, TTP have decided to participate in annual spring operation against ISAF togather with afghan taliban, negating the pakistani concept of good and bad taliban,
TTP joins Afghan Taliban to wage spring offensive - thenews.com.pk

No doubt that internally when it comes to FATA Pakistan fuzzes the math on deaths of locals and their own because the illusion of a capable army being rendered incapable is a huge problem for them.

I however am of the opinion that they would love to have a reason to create a hooplah and an uproar over a series of border gaurd deaths for the aforementioned reasons. After all, when a few of their squadron was annihalted by a NATO missile accidently a few years back they cried foul up and down and used it to their tactical advantage. It took Hilary Clinton months to bow down and beg and kiss some shoes and pay some buko bucks to open that border. At this point - Pakistan is experiencing internal civil strife and would love a reason to satisfy their militancy demands and show a big farcical border closing drama all over again. I think they got exactly what they wanted here and would have preferred even a little more.

[Michin Khel]

No doubt that internally when it comes to FATA Pakistan fuzzes the math on deaths of locals and their own because the illusion of a capable army being rendered incapable is a huge problem for them.

I however am of the opinion that they would love to have a reason to create a hooplah and an uproar over a series of border gaurd deaths for the aforementioned reasons. After all, when a few of their squadron was annihalted by a NATO missile accidently a few years back they cried foul up and down and used it to their tactical advantage. It took Hilary Clinton months to bow down and beg and kiss some shoes and pay some buko bucks to open that border. At this point - Pakistan is experiencing internal civil strife and would love a reason to satisfy their militancy demands and show a big farcical border closing drama all over again. I think they got exactly what they wanted here and would have preferred even a little more.

You gave an excellent suggestion in your previous post that Afghan governament and people should increase contacts and trade with border tribes on Pakistani side...in mohmand agency Pakistani air force , tanks and artillery destroyed and leveled entire villages near border , to soften up the suspected taliban hide outs...with lot of civilian casualties...army is now stationed there and locals are displaced....tribals are now victims of hatred in non-pakhtun portion of Pakistan and nobody have sympathies with them....any warm-hearted approach and contact from Afghan side would be definately welcomed by them...it would not only bring the injured and insulted pakhtuns of two sides closer but may shape into some thing in future that we all desire, unity!

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You gave an excellent suggestion in your previous post that Afghan governament and people should increase contacts and trade with border tribes on Pakistani side...in mohmand agency Pakistani air force , tanks and artillery destroyed and leveled entire villages near border , to soften up the suspected taliban hide outs...with lot of civilian casualties...army is now stationed there and locals are displaced....tribals are now victims of hatred in non-pakhtun portion of Pakistan and nobody have sympathies with them....any warm-hearted approach and contact from Afghan side would be definately welcomed by them...it would not only bring the injured and insulted pakhtuns of two sides closer but may shape into some thing in future that we all desire, unity!

Luffy this is based on my on the ground interactions with folks. Nothing replaces one's own widespread experience. I was able to talk to tribals at their most vulnerable state as a clinician and I asked one a very simple question once - and I hope it helps the Afghan government to restratigize and walk away from the already failed approach of Sardar Daud (though I respect Daud's sentiments and passion for reuniting Pashtuns under central governance).

Me: So Mashr - do you call yourself Afghan or Pakistani?
Tribal elder: Well we are Pakistani but our ancestory and our land is also in Afghanistan.

Me: But your forefathers got passports from Amanullah Khan himself right?

Tribal elder: sighs - to tell you the truth my grandfather did not want our other folk to go there because he knew it would creat a schism in our clan. See all of our land is arranged in a grid pattern. You can identify - to this day who is related to who most directly based on location of our plots of land. Thats why i could have a very hard time selling to you but my cousin - not so much. So my grandfather let them go eventually and we have some lands near Kandahar and also near Birmal and what not that Amanullah Khan gave us - but we lost touch with these others.

Me: But dont you think that its very unfair that every group in pakistan gets their own strategic and ethnic territory named for them and each time Pashtuns want something of their own -even if NO sedition is involved - Pashtuns here are told that Islamic character dominates over ethnic character and that this is a plot to dissolve the Islamic nature of pashtuns?

Your grandfather and mine according to the old stories gave us the name Afghan right? Why is it a bad word all of a sudden? Look in the Qurans from the 1930s that the Brits translated and the Arabs themselves sent - they call us all the Afghans. Why shouldnt you own the name as much as us? Pashtuns have been the best defenders of their faith and no one can try to tell them they havent given the most for it - so why should this sort of tactic work on you?

Look at the abuse you get here? You and I go into Peshawar and certain people make fun of our turban they make fun of us as if we are the outsiders even though Peshawar bowed multiple times.

The Elder: Look - we go where our interest is. Our nuts and dried fruit sales are best in that direction.

Me: Well if say you had a better market in Kabul would that shift your allegiance?

The Elder: Probably it would make a difference yes. We go where our interest is. When Amanullah and Nadir made it our interest - And Abdali Baba did before them - we went with our interest.

So Luffy these simple conversations with the people will reveal much. If these people would stop looking at rural Pashtuns as offal and idiot cattle and stopped thinking that they were geniuses and actually gave some respect to their own people they might learn a thing or two.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

so pakistan lost the strategic post/gates?

i am a bit scary about the future of Pak army and ANA onwards 2014 or when the west leave Afghanistan

[DaZahroJaam.]

seven children that were born in various cities of afghanistan yesterday were named after the soldier that was killed by the pakistani army.. which is a great gesture. however, where is the passion the rest of the time?? he is not the only guy who was killed for afghanistan so why is everyone over celebrating his bravery and paying no attention to the rest??

[Admin Khan]

seven children that were born in various cities of afghanistan yesterday were named after the soldier that was killed by the pakistani army.. which is a great gesture. however, where is the passion the rest of the time?? he is not the only guy who was killed for afghanistan so why is everyone over celebrating his bravery and paying no attention to the rest??

I sort of felt the same way, especially since 7 Afghans had died in Logar the same day. I guess in a sense, since Afghans are sick and tired of Pakistan meddling in their affairs, they decided to romanticize him as standing up against the international migraine(Pakistan).