Human right abuses by Pak army in FATA

[Michin Khel]

I was talking with a patriotic pakistani pashtun on the same topic, he refused to believe that pak army would do any thing to its own people..he insisted that rest of pakistanis love their tribal brothers and we pakhtuns love our army. He labeled me a racist and agent of loy afghanistan and pakhtunistan. I told him that a person in punjab is viewing things different, for him you are a terrorist taliban which is threat to his punjab and rest of pakistan. The soldiers of his province in army are getting killed by taliban and he hates you for that. Mohajirs, the creators of pakistan, already hates you...similarly faujis are engaged in FATA for last 9 years and they are going through various kind of mental problems, they are irritated, nervous and panicked, they held all tribals responsible for talibans, they consider all tribals suspicious and they take revenge from all.
Out of curosity and testing, i brought some posts to the attention of the webmaster and mods of defence.pk and asked them that do you people consider tribals as your adversaries or what? So much anti-pakhtun, anti-tribal and anti-afghanistan comments are openly passed while on even a slight anti-army, anti-punjabi and anti-mohajir comment, infraction would be given to you.
The webmaster replied "it is their personal opinions, they have right to express it", one mod replied "tribals are equally responsible, they support talibans against pakistan army", another mod replied "you are constantly spewing venom against pak army, this is your last warning",
now check out few posts which i brought to their attention as examples otherwise they are in thousands,

Originally Posted by somebozo

These tribals should be fenced and concentrated in their FATA outback and made to civilize under the writ of state. What happened to Red Indians and Aborginals of Canada and Australia should stand as an example here

good bomb them more and more till last taliban die even we lost every tribal man in exchange . keep bombing they are the cancer of pakistan

Originally Posted by pakdefender

if afghanistan is set to become like india , an eternal enemy of Pakistan, then we have the nuclear options as well
and those who think that we will not use nukes are sadly mistaken , these have not been made for decoration purposes only

gone are those days of conquering etc .. a nuclear pay load will vanish them and their genes from this planet

Originally Posted by HAIDER
They are not brave, Pak army only work in selective areas. And they only avoid collateral damage otherwise there bravery will meet allah in few arial attacks . They have two qualities , first they are rigid and jahil . Oterwise nationals quest to touch new horizon and they have quest for making new box of niswar....

if the animals in FATA will not learn to walk on two instead of walking on all fours as they do now , they will be made extinct ... trust me there is enough determination and force available to do this

Originally Posted by Icewolf View Post
I think Pakistan should just nuke Afghanistan after 2014. There is no reason for that god-forsaken country to exist

Very difficult to find militant. They disappears in small groups, caves and then attacks.
Evacuate the children and we should nuke waziristan from Raad cruise missile with smaller yield. It should be effective weapon on hills.
To bring Peace, Taliban death is vital.

[Kushan Prince]

Musharraf also had a supposed had a hand in the assassination of Benazir Bhutto.

This man should be rotting in jail right now.

[ComradePashtun]

With the withdrawl of the USA from Afghanistan the TTP will be weakened.

1. their moral legitimization that they fight against infidel invaders in a Taliban network wont work anymore;

2. with the help of the USA towards Pakistan stopping, their demand that Pakistan has to stop it´s pro-American stance will be accepted; Pakistan will be more dependent on China;

3. the TTP and the rest of the Taliban movement will concentrate on fighting the Afghan state; thats why they were created by the Pakistani ISI

If the Afghan Armed Forces, Police and Spy Agency fail to containe the Taliban movement, then they will once again turn into the tools of the Pakistani establishment.

Thats the sole reason why Pakistan hasn´t abandoned them even after fighting segments of that movement for years now.

Mustafa,

Not quite. First, logistically it will take roughly 4 years for the international presence to scale down to the purported limit of 15000 soldiers which is said to remain in assistance capacity to the Afghan government. Through these years the prospect and shape of end-game in the tribal areas itself is unknown and the Paki army seems to not know what to do next.

On your second assumption; the American presence will remain and Pakistan will remain to be engaged and will collaborate with the U.S. out of its own necessities. What however is unknown is the future prospect of U.S. economic 7 billion, military 9 billion assistance and the Coalition Support Fund which is roughly 10 billion Pakistan has received since 2002. This a huge amount per se, also against that the Pakistan economy is performing poorly and its debts are becoming ever unsustainable. All this bodes ill upon future.

Your third point is as far as the anti-Pakistan TTP elements is concern is fallacious as well.

Now the question is, and I would like to ask Luffy here too on what he thinks, what will be the likely shape of the end-game in the tribal areas which should be strategic in Pakistani army's calculus separate from the wider geopolitical and strategic dynamics but as a national security priority?

[ComradePashtun]

Luffy,

I am yet to see a single one of those behind the screen Paki/Pakjabi warriors to utter those words to me in real life. What a despicable cowards. Dirty greasy rats.

[ComradePashtun]

Aww Luffy wrora,

Khafa nasi, khu tasi Pakistanian Pashtana hum lezh beghairata aw izat de nafsm mo kam dai. Sha soo de che panjabian da moor zaman mo lezh noor hum wrasta krree. Da moo dooy ta da Afghanistan da tabahi mozdoori aw as a forward operating jasoosi tuhfa dai.

[khushal]

^^First you say khafa nasi and then you go on an insulting rant. you could have worded that better. What you said could be said about afghans and replace panjabis with tajiks/hazaras.
I dont see the difference between child molesting tajik/hazara controlled Afghanistan and a panjabi controlled pakistan. Neither serves pashtun interests.

[khushal]

With the withdrawl of the USA from Afghanistan the TTP will be weakened.

1. their moral legitimization that they fight against infidel invaders in a Taliban network wont work anymore;

2. with the help of the USA towards Pakistan stopping, their demand that Pakistan has to stop it´s pro-American stance will be accepted; Pakistan will be more dependent on China;

3. the TTP and the rest of the Taliban movement will concentrate on fighting the Afghan state; thats why they were created by the Pakistani ISI

If the Afghan Armed Forces, Police and Spy Agency fail to containe the Taliban movement, then they will once again turn into the tools of the Pakistani establishment.

Thats the sole reason why Pakistan hasn´t abandoned them even after fighting segments of that movement for years now.

This is all wrong. Pay attention to what going in Kunar with TTP bases all over that place and how the Pak army is very aggressive in that area. The TTP has managed to be in this game for a long time to come. What the US has managed to do is use the TTP for pakistan what the afghan taliban is for afghanistan(give sanctuary to paksitans gov enemy as pakistan is giving sanctuary to afghans gov enemy). What it wants to do is use this as leverage to force the pakistanis to reign in the afghan taliban and take away their sanctuary. It is also using the Baluch resistance and has threatened pakistan with supporting the Baluch cause in the international court and at the UN with recognition.

When pakistan was created, it was not created to be independent, it was created to be a servant and if it rebelled against its creator, it would be threatened with destruction and disintegration. Pakistans choice right now is either cooperate or become the next Yugoslavia, it tried its best to manage the double game but its losing it very fast and that is why you see the popularity of Imran Khan. Selling its pashtuns has created a backlash that it has lost complete control of. Sadly, it seems this war will last for a long time to come with pashtun on both sides suffering.

Also the TTP was never created by the Pak establishment and if it was, it has lost control of them. The US is only leaving rural areas of Afghanistan, it will stay behind in urban areas where the big military bases are at least until 2024 if not beyond it.

[badmash_khel]

@comrade

Stop generalizing Lar pashtuns by using words like "tase", as if all Lar pashtuns share the same oponion. There are traitors among both Lar (Pro Pak army, desified) and Bar Pashtuns (commies, Karzai, the whole Royal family, pro farsiwans).

[Michin Khel]

Aww Luffy wrora,

Khafa nasi, khu tasi Pakistanian Pashtana hum lezh beghairata aw izat de nafsm mo kam dai. Sha soo de che panjabian da moor zaman mo lezh noor hum wrasta krree. Da moo dooy ta da Afghanistan da tabahi mozdoori aw as a forward operating jasoosi tuhfa dai.

Most of the lar pakhtuns are actually misguided, brainwashed and ignorant of the facts....when you tell them reality and harsh facts , they reject it on whim...i am talking about institutionalized ones, going against pakistaniyat, which is installed in them, feels to them as if they are going against religion...propaganda is fed to them not proper education and knowledge...they just need awakening.
Then there are genuine sell outs one. Who served british raj and now are serving pakistan. Examples are khan habibullah khan family and saifullah family from my own district.
Then there are those ideological ones, who are not brainwashed but rather see their interest in Pakistan and would stick with it now matter what is happening to their pakhtuns, e.g JUI-F and jumat e islami guys.

Frankely speaking i have never seen such homogeneous yet so disunited nation, i am not that hopeful about them.

[ComradePashtun]

^^First you say khafa nasi and then you go on an insulting rant. you could have worded that better. What you said could be said about afghans and replace panjabis with tajiks/hazaras.
I dont see the difference between child molesting tajik/hazara controlled Afghanistan and a panjabi controlled pakistan. Neither serves pashtun interests.

Ok, I take it back and present my apology. Perhaps I should know better. Any way, I think Luffy got what I meant to say. I don't mean to generalize but only meant the traitor Pashtuns in Pakiland. Luffy categorized them for us.

[ComradePashtun]

@comrade

Stop generalizing Lar pashtuns by using words like "tase", as if all Lar pashtuns share the same oponion. There are traitors among both Lar (Pro Pak army, desified) and Bar Pashtuns (commies, Karzai, the whole Royal family, pro farsiwans).

Yeah but still, most Pashtun intelligentsia in Paki side who are relevant on the ground are suckers and Panjabi servants. So lezh sust dee. My heart sinks for the plight the proud tribal Pashtuns are going through.

[ComradePashtun]

Luffy,

How do you see the future as far as the war between Paki army and TTP is concerned, what could be the likely outcome?

[Michin Khel]

Luffy,

How do you see the future as far as the war between Paki army and TTP is concerned, what could be the likely outcome?

ISI is very efficient organization. So far they have succeeded in turning one faction of talibans against another and prevent them from uniting under one banner...look at ISI's record
1- They quicky approached turkistan bhittani , who split away from baitulluh mehsud due to differences. They provided finances and other supports to bhittani talibans and encouraged them to launch attacks on mehsud talibans. They also brought turkistan to media to say that how TTP actions are unislamic. Resources and attention of TTP got spending on turkistan bhittani. Then in military operation in south waziristan army employed bhittani group to establish control on already captured areas. Turkistan bhittani was dreaming of having his own area of influence. But due to poor performance of bhittani against powerful mehsuds, army unarmed him and his men despite his protests , to establish army writ over Tank district. Bhittani claimed that he got used by Army against TTP ...moral of this story is that if you give yourself completely to army, they are going to used you and then throw away like tissue paper.
2- Abdullah mehsud group split away from baitullah mehsud group...they were also approached by ISI and togather with turkistan bhittani, they were helped by army to fight against baitullah mehsud...its leader Qari hussain was assassinated in DI khan, their story ends here...
3- Maulvi nazir, leader of wazir talibans of south waziristan got in conflict with troublesome uzbeks, this angered baitullah mehsud who was providing sanctuary to Uzbeks. ISI took advantage of the situation, provided him every kind of help in his war against uzbeks and then against TTP...after that army formed non-aggession pact with maulvi nazir group...Maulvi nazir survived two drones and because of that he broke peace deal and said that deal is invalid untill pakistan ask america to stop drone attacks. Later he formed alliance both with TTP and hafiz gul bahadur group, also maintained non-aggression against pak army and focused on Afghanistan...to break the alliance between TTP and maulvi and turned them against each other, pampflets in pashto were distributed by ISI in nazir's area supposedly written by baitullah against maulvi nazir. Both group called it propaganda of ISI...This guy got droned recently and his group's trust in pakistan military is seem to be lifted and i think they are realizing double games of Pakistan...
4- Hafiz gul bahadur , commander of north waziristan talibans...they are focused on afghanistan...like nazir they are hostile to uzbeks...has formed non-aggression pact with pak army, has allowed them limited movements in north waziristan...is not part of TTP but is not hostile to them either...whenever army try to flex its muscles , they attack and kill or kidnap faujis as warning....as army is focused on TTP so they have no choice but to have peace deals with this guy...after american withdrawl they would continue to focus on afghanistan but if pak army gets naughty with them then he can easily join hands with TTP against army...
5- Haqqani network, has good relationships with ISI , wont participate against in move against pakistan army.
6- Mangal bagh , commander of lashkar e islam in khyber agency of afridi tribe. Was fighting long sectarian war with bareilvi militants of ansar ul islam and defeated them. Had complete control of bara tehsil, was openely pro-pakistan and pro-army and ISI allowed him to carry on his activities in khyber agency freely. Now this month army has decided to clear the tirah of his militants so that NATO supply line is in governament control after american withrdrawl. Mangal bagh has joined hands with TTP and togather they are giving so much resistance to Pak army that dozens of elite SSG commandos are falling like common soldiers..to prevent it from being a disaster, pakistan air force is bombarding each and every inch of tirah...if mangal bagh and his group survives he would be a great headache for Pakistan army as their area of influence is few kilometers away from peshawer...and is also has long border with afghanistan.

In short ISI has utilized its capabilities and has taken advantage of every oppurtunity so far to keep talibans divided...yet they have badly failed against TTP now led by hakimullah mehsud....still they would continue playing their spy roles and lets see how they perform...hakimullah mehsud's amir ul momineen is mullah omar and they listen to him and respect him...afghan talibans would definately provide sanctuary to TTP. TTP has support of foriegn militants as well as punjabi talibans, now mangal bagh of khyber agency has made alliance with them, their range and scope is very wide...TTP can not defeat pak army but they would exchaust them in the long run..similarly pak army is unable to finish TTP...the question is who has high stamina for decades long war?...pashtun talibans? Or pak army who surrendered its 90 thousands of its troops after just 8 days war in east bengal when they faced stronger enemy....while religion and faith drives and motivates TTP...secular like Pak army relies on support , motivation and cheering from civilians , and civilians support is disappointing, from pashtun population there is no support at all, so they are highly demoralized....they are definately going for peace deals with talibans, as after american withdrawl they wont be able to milk dollars from uncle sam...TTP i think wont listen, their goal is islamabad...according to retd general ali jan orakzai, the main person behind peace deals with talibans, it was always army during musharaf times who broke peace deal with talibans under american pressure...TTP simply dont trust two tongued Army/ISI

[BarakzaiAbdali]

ISI is very efficient organization. So far they have succeeded in turning one faction of talibans against another and prevent them from uniting under one banner...look at ISI's record
1- They quicky approached turkistan bhittani , who split away from baitulluh mehsud due to differences. They provided finances and other supports to bhittani talibans and encouraged them to launch attacks on mehsud talibans. They also brought turkistan to media to say that how TTP actions are unislamic. Resources and attention of TTP got spending on turkistan bhittani. Then in military operation in south waziristan army employed bhittani group to establish control on already captured areas. Turkistan bhittani was dreaming of having his own area of influence. But due to poor performance of bhittani against powerful mehsuds, army unarmed him and his men despite his protests , to establish army writ over Tank district. Bhittani claimed that he got used by Army against TTP ...moral of this story is that if you give yourself completely to army, they are going to used you and then throw away like tissue paper.
2- Abdullah mehsud group split away baitullah mehsud group...they were again approached by ISI and togather with turkistan bhittani, they were helped to fight against baitullah mehsud...its leader Qari hussain was assassinated in DI khan, their story ends here...
3- Maulvi nazir, leader of wazir talibans of south waziristan got in conflict with troublesome uzbeks, this angered baitullah mehsud who was providing sanctuary to Uzbeks. ISI took advantage of the situation, formed non-aggression pact with maulvi nazir group and provided him every kind of help in his war against uzbeks and then against TTP...Maulvi nazir survived two drones and because of that he broke peace deal untill pakistan ask america to stop drone attacks. Later he formed alliance both with TTP and hafiz gul bahadur group, also maintained non-aggression against pak army and focused on Afghanistan...to break the alliance between TTP and maulvi and turned them against each other, pampflets in pashto were distributed by ISI in nazir's area supposedly written by baitullah against maulvi nazir. Both group called it propaganda of ISI...This guy got droned recently and his group's trust in pakistan military is seem to be lifted and i think they are realizing double games of Pakistan...
4- Hafiz gul bahadur , commander of north waziristan talibans...they are focused on afghanistan...like nazir they are hostile to uzbeks...has formed non-aggression pact with pak army, has allowed them limited movements in north waziristan...is not part of TTP but is not hostile to them either...when army try to flex muscles , they attack and kill or kidnap faujis as warning....as army is focused on TTP so they have no choice but to have peace deals with this guy...after american withdrawl they would continue to focus on afghanistan but if pak army gets naughty with them then he can easily join hands with TTP against army...
5- Haqqani network, has good relationships with ISI , wont participate against any move against pakistan army.
6- Mangal bagh , commander of lashkar e islam in khyber agency of afridi tribe. Was fighting long sectarian war with bareilvi militants of ansar ul islam and defeated them. Had complete control of bara tehsil, was openely pro-pakistan and pro-army and ISI allowed him to carry on his activities in khyber agency freely. Now this month army has decided to clear the tirah of his militants so that NATO supply line is in governament control after american withrdrawl. Mangal bagh has joined hands with TTP and togather they are giving so much resistance to Pak army that dozens of elite SSG commandos are falling like common soldiers..to prevent it from being a disaster, pakistan air force is bombarding each and every inch of tirah...if mangal bagh and his group survives he would be a great headace for Pakistan army as their area of influence is few kilometers away from peshawer...

In short ISI has utilized its capabilities and has taken advantage of every oppurtunity so far to keep talibans divided...yet they have badly failed against TTP now led hakimullah mehsud....still they would continue playing their spy roles and lets see how they perform...hakimullah mehsud's amir ul momineen is mullah omar and they listen to him and respect him...afghan talibans would definately provide sanctuary to TTP. TTP has support of foriegn militants as well as punjabi talibans, now mangal bagh of khyber agency has made alliance with them, their range and scope is very wide...TTP can not defeat pak army but they would exchaust them in the long run..similarly pak army is unable to finish TTP...the question is how has high stamina for decades long war?...pashtun talibans? Or pak army who surrendered its 90 thousands of its troops after just 8 days war in east bengal when they faced stronger enemy....while religion and faith drives and motivates TTP...secular like Pak army relies on support , motivation and cheering from civilians , and civilians support is disappointing, from pashtun population there is no support at all, so they are highly demoralized....they are definately going for peace deals with talibans, as after american withdrawl they wont be able to milk dollars from uncle sam...TTP i think wont listen, their goal is islamabad...according to retd general ali jan orakzai, the main person behind peace deals with talibans, it was always army during musharaf times who broke peace deal with talibans under american pressure...TTP simply dont trust two tongued Army/ISI

Good assessment Luffy.

[Michin Khel]

Watch this video, check out the views of locals of waziristan, how army use jets on waziristan as if it is enemy territory
WAZIRISTAN What local People Think About Army Operation. - YouTube