Tajik perspective on Pashtun Politics :)

[Khidr]

How do you explain this video?
YouTube - Criminal Ahmad Shah Massoud and his Followers Speach Against Pashtuns

I will talk about everything about Massoud as you bring it up sister.

As for this video, before I translate what he said, let me put this video and this individual in context.

This video was taken just after the Taliban had captured Charikar and surrounding areas in Parwan Province after which they embarked on an infamous campaign of ‘scorch earth’ policy involving burning of homes, crops, removal residents, confiscation of land, murder and rape. See my links at the end as reference.

This individual doesn’t appear to me a military man of any high rank or even a part of Massoud's army, but rather a participant in a Shura/council which was organised a few days after the news of the massacres by the Talibs in Parwan.
Massoud obviously as you can see is a participating in this open Shura where even kids are looking in at and anyone can join.

This is what is said in this 51 second, edited and interrupted video:

“...If are going to accept slavery, where they (Taliban) will become our ruler and deport us from our own lands and resettle us by force, we will never be successful or at peace. If we have faith and be prepared to sacrifice our life, forget possession of material things....(recording skipped).. (recording comes back)...if we accept a pitiful life, then a traitor Pashtun, who we don’t know where he is from, whether from Pakistan or where, is forcing us to live in the most shameful and pitiful of lives, where he is kicking us out of our own lands/farms, if we surrender they will take (can’t understand the word) and take it to Kabul, we will watch with shame.”

You’re free to judge the comments for yourself, but it is important you understand the context that he said it in...would a Pashtun who experienced something similar had not called Tajiks or Panjubis at the very least khayen/traitor.I'm sure in the heat of war and death and destruction your average angry Tajik would have called Pashtuns much more than this, just as I'm sure your average Pashtun would have done the exact same thing.

I also think that if this video is "proof of Massoud's ethnic bias" than it really shows the lack of Massoud's bias that this edited, interupted and short video which doesn't show Massoud response serves as "best evidence of his ethnic bias"

Please watch my youtube video reference as proof of the barbarity of war, not just Taliban or Tajiks or Pashtuns.


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...201892,00.html
ttp://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq2.html
YouTube - Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 5 of 5)
Watch this doco of a later “less famous” massacre of Tajik men and rape of girls Tajiks by Taliban. Watch the first 5 minutes.

Wasalaam.

[Afghan_Soldier]

Afghan Solder,

Dear brother, firstly, and fore mostly, that is Shahid Ahmad Shah Massoud!

As tempting as you are making it for me to drag this conservation to the gutters by your colourful words of “fascists” and ‘hesab o ketab’ I will once again resist the temptation and exercise sabr and patience. I am not here to sell my “shallow words” to you or other Pashtuns in order to get elected mayor of Peshawar or Kandahar. I am here for the purposes that I outlined. I will proceed and will leave the extent of my fascism to be judged by the people I engage in discussions with.

Waslaam.

There is no dragging the conversation to thee gutters, I merely pointing at you that you might be the person who I am seriously suspecting you to be, I provided a throrough reply to you PM too. No one is here to buy them, they might be just shallow and the shallow that they appear it is what might be the process in those hemispheres in your scull. Look in the mirror and then think of becoming as the mayor of Peshawar or Kandahar. If my assuption about is to be true then I am sure you for what you are wont cease to surprise me and will show your true colors.

[Afghan_Soldier]

Afghan Solder,

Dear brother, firstly, and fore mostly, that is Shahid Ahmad Shah Massoud!

As tempting as you are making it for me to drag this conservation to the gutters by your colourful words of “fascists” and ‘hesab o ketab’ I will once again resist the temptation and exercise sabr and patience. I am not here to sell my “shallow words” to you or other Pashtuns in order to get elected mayor of Peshawar or Kandahar. I am here for the purposes that I outlined. I will proceed and will leave the extent of my fascism to be judged by the people I engage in discussions with.

Waslaam.

Salam Khird,

There is no dragging the conversation to thee gutters, I merely pointing at you that you might be the person who I am seriously suspecting you to be, I provided a throrough reply to you PM too. No one is here to buy them, they might be just shallow and the shallow that they appear it is what might be the process in those hemispheres in your scull. Look in the mirror and then think of becoming as the mayor of Peshawar or Kandahar. If my assuption about is to be true then I am sure you for what you are wont cease to surprise me and will show your true colors.

Yes, that would also mean that you are a 5ft individual with chinky eyes.

PS. Massoudove is no Shaheed by a run away romantacised persona by some individuals to take pride in. We are so glad he was blown to pieces in his cave for the kengaroo that he was. He is the source of most of the ills that was wrecked on Afghanistan from Daud's time when he got his training in terrorism in Pakistan.

[Khidr]

Salam Khird,

There is no dragging the conversation to thee gutters, I merely pointing at you that you might be the person who I am seriously suspecting you to be, I provided a throrough reply to you PM too. No one is here to buy them, they might be just shallow and the shallow that they appear it is what might be the process in those hemispheres in your scull. Look in the mirror and then think of becoming as the mayor of Peshawar or Kandahar. If my assuption about is to be true then I am sure you for what you are wont cease to surprise me and will show your true colors.

Yes, that would also mean that you are a 5ft individual with chinky eyes.

PS. Massoudove is no Shaheed by a run away romantacised persona by some individuals to take pride in. We are so glad he was blown to pieces in his cave for the kengaroo that he was. He is the source of most of the ills that was wrecked on Afghanistan from Daud's time when he got his training in terrorism in Pakistan.

Wasalaam Afghan Soldier,

I have learned 3 things from my beloved grandfather that I will take to the grave with me,

#1 When in doubt always give people the benefit of the doubt.
#2 Ghayrat is in part measured by patience and sabr and not neccessarily how quickly you can chauvinistically rip you shirt and/or underpants.
#3 Nothing is as pleasurable as having “an esab o ketab” with someone who really deserves an ‘esab o ketab”.

Many Afghans, mistake the first 2 as a weakness. You’re the epitome and perfect example. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, approached you with sincerity and asked you to provide information as to the run in case if it was me. You now did provide me with the information in private, for which I thank you, but you did it in a very disrespectful way with insults, arrogance and aggression through the safety of your computer.

I swear on every ounce of ghayrat and honour that I feel runs through my veins that I do not recall having a run in with any Afghan from your country or with your self-hyped chauvinistic attitude. I’m 6’1, not into taekwondo, don’t have “chink” eyes, HAVE wavy hair which is mostly short and trimmed, and with an unshaven 3-4 day trimmed beard. As to where I live and what I study, I will pm it to you!

I don’t want my “words of peace” to come in the way of you issuing me a challenge if that is what you want nor am I intimidated by you being “used to physical challenges". I take pride in that I have not uttered out any words of aggression, or have insulted you ethnically. The same cannot be said for you!

Although I did not come to this forum to engage into a primitive fight, but I will tell you that if you want to arrange a meet up, man-to-man for the sake of an “esab o ketab’ and your ego, I will give you my country location in pm and I’m sure we can organise something by phone sometime. If there is a will, there is a way! Read your pm!

As for your cheap insult on Shahid Ahmad Shah Massoud, that’s very tough of you...very tough, now my ONE resquest is that if you have an OUNCE of GHAYRAT in your blood...go a random person who respects him in your city (you will find many where you are), say it to their face what you called him...pick out out anyone...tall short, fat, bald, chiny, big eyes, smelly...if you have an OUNCE OF GHAYRAT!

Read your pm about arranging something.

[Nadir Shah]

Brother Khird

Where can we begin on unifying? I want to see us unified.

we have so much ethnic tension in Afghanistan how do initiate this, what demands do Tajiks want?

Malgariya, there are no 'Tajik' demands, no 'Pashtun' demands and no 'Uzbek' demands. Every citizen of Afghanistan has a right to speak, be educated in and develop his mother language, be it Pashto, Dari or Turkmeni. Political lobbying and political pressure groups are natural things. The stability of the Afghan Republic is in the interest of all the ethnicities in Afghanistan.

[Nadir Shah]

Salam Khird,

There is no dragging the conversation to thee gutters, I merely pointing at you that you might be the person who I am seriously suspecting you to be, I provided a throrough reply to you PM too. No one is here to buy them, they might be just shallow and the shallow that they appear it is what might be the process in those hemispheres in your scull. Look in the mirror and then think of becoming as the mayor of Peshawar or Kandahar. If my assuption about is to be true then I am sure you for what you are wont cease to surprise me and will show your true colors.

Yes, that would also mean that you are a 5ft individual with chinky eyes.

PS. Massoudove is no Shaheed by a run away romantacised persona by some individuals to take pride in. We are so glad he was blown to pieces in his cave for the kengaroo that he was. He is the source of most of the ills that was wrecked on Afghanistan from Daud's time when he got his training in terrorism in Pakistan.

Malgariya, this is not constructive and not conducive to the Pashtun/Afghan cause. Ahmed Shah Massoud has not been singled out for preferential treatment. All the Mujahideen of the 80's are in the Jirgas of Afghanistan. Gulbaddin Hekmatyaar has been offered re-integration and a stake in Kabul if he turns away from his gods in Rawalpindi. Even Mullah Omar and the Taliban, the most divisive of all factors in Afghanistan, have been offered amnesty and a role in the Government. So, I think you should not fall into the misconception that Massoud has a legacy just because he was a Tajik. You should also note that this is not a Tajik v Pashtun issue. The main thing is to move beyond the mess of the Afghan Fassad and the civil war and strengthen the state institutions of Afghanistan. Digging up the graves of the 80's and 90's won't help, as I am sure you would agree.

[Nadir Shah]

Why am I the only one who thinks we are so similar to Tzeks and soon we can live side by side in peace.

I really think one day we can drop ethnic nationalism and work towards Afghan nationalism.


All we have got from ethnic nationalism is strategic depth and being used by ISI. While Tajiks are being used BY RAW.

I'd like to extend this opportunity Khidr to tell you that we, 60million Pashtuns have nothing against you, or your ethnic group lets work on learing our misconceptions. You may ask anything you want.


The only fine print I have in this post is you must also accept our 30million Afghan brothers of Pakistan. We love them and will always be there for them. Unless they ask us to stop.

What a fine thought indeed. Playing off the Pashtuns against Tajiks and other non-Pashtuns and using the 'Taliban are Pashtun nationalists' is the biggest card in hands of the ISI and Pakistan. All the stakeholders in Afghanistan know that the ethnic divisions within Afghanistan are superficial and externally fueled.

[Nadir Shah]

Nadir Shah,

Your telling me Taliban were not nationalistic?

Yes. They were, and they remain, faithfull foot soldiers of the Punjabi empire.

[Nadir Shah]

Punjabi empire? Try again.

They are LOCALS OF THE SOUTH. PAY THE SOUTH A VISIT.

sam aadey khalag dey. They are not Punjabis.

Malgariya, I never said they were Punjabis. They are the modern day equivalents of Shah Shuja Durrani.

[Afghan_Soldier]

Wasalaam Afghan Soldier,

I have learned 3 things from my beloved grandfather that I will take to the grave with me,

#1 When in doubt always give people the benefit of the doubt.
#2 Ghayrat is in part measured by patience and sabr and not neccessarily how quickly you can chauvinistically rip you shirt and/or underpants.
#3 Nothing is as pleasurable as having “an esab o ketab” with someone who really deserves an ‘esab o ketab”.

Many Afghans, mistake the first 2 as a weakness. You’re the epitome and perfect example. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, approached you with sincerity and asked you to provide information as to the run in case if it was me. You now did provide me with the information in private, for which I thank you, but you did it in a very disrespectful way with insults, arrogance and aggression through the safety of your computer.

I swear on every ounce of ghayrat and honour that I feel runs through my veins that I do not recall having a run in with any Afghan from your country or with your self-hyped chauvinistic attitude. I’m 6’1, not into taekwondo, don’t have “chink” eyes, HAVE wavy hair which is mostly short and trimmed, and with an unshaven 3-4 day trimmed beard. As to where I live and what I study, I will pm it to you!

I don’t want my “words of peace” to come in the way of you issuing me a challenge if that is what you want nor am I intimidated by you being “used to physical challenges". I take pride in that I have not uttered out any words of aggression, or have insulted you ethnically. The same cannot be said for you!

Although I did not come to this forum to engage into a primitive fight, but I will tell you that if you want to arrange a meet up, man-to-man for the sake of an “esab o ketab’ and your ego, I will give you my country location in pm and I’m sure we can organise something by phone sometime. If there is a will, there is a way! Read your pm!

As for your cheap insult on Shahid Ahmad Shah Massoud, that’s very tough of you...very tough, now my ONE resquest is that if you have an OUNCE of GHAYRAT in your blood...go a random person who respects him in your city (you will find many where you are), say it to their face what you called him...pick out out anyone...tall short, fat, bald, chiny, big eyes, smelly...if you have an OUNCE OF GHAYRAT!

Read your pm about arranging something.

Khidra,

Avoid writting a hero-like script or a satire about yourself here, you seem to be full of it. I have explained to you in PM and here in the open forums, and I genuinly suspected you to be some hate monger who insults Pahsutns in derogatory terms. I have gone to the extend that I have try to track the individual and assuming if you were him I wanted to confront you. You should understand my attitude. On teh other hand you can post my reply here, and one instance I might sound prerjiduce in humorous way, which you can pick on, can never be attributed to ethnically insulting you.

Why write two a4 pages here when your reply was only a paragraph? You well know, that since you are not the guy I thought you were, I would not engage nor reply to you shenanigans since you know if I do so I would be condemned forst by fellow Pashutns in the forum. lol It already appears that I might be on the wrong.lol

Good for you. Take your challenge back, and I would only take the challenge if you really were who I suspected you to be.

As for Massoudov, he belong to the dust-bin of history. I could hardly give a monky to scream his name on the streets of Kabul, no one really talks about him and nor gives any importance to that buzz. Over 70%, that I can say with confidence, of people in Kabul despises him. He is a hero for some miserable souls. I am absolutely capable of defending myself and against any fat, short, skinny and ugly pro Massoudov here in this city, alahamdulliah. I am very forthright and vocal in my views of him be it here or in real life. Pailooch Kandahari can top what might interest you.

Take car and welcome to the forum.

Regards,

A.Soldier

[eusuphxai]

Regardless of your motive in the forum, you are welcome.I personally have not interacted with Tajiks so I won't comment on that.

Last bit if i will want a Loy afghanistan or the way things are.My opinion is different, not emotional at all, regardless of the past and more based on logic.How much will it benifit Pakhtun of today? If I listen to my mind I would want a Loy Afghanistan than most people want here, where Attock is not our border but Karachi and gawadar is and if I am dreaming too much mayb Delhi as a capital, ruled by pakhtuns. But if i go with my brain to me it is NOT an issue at all or if you push me yes it might be but not number one issue.
Our issues are lack of education, death of our language, yes a lot of us can speak it but how many can write it.Outdated pashtunwali which on emergency basis needs to be updated, removing the stigma of associated with terror.

[Afghan_Soldier]

Malgariya, this is not constructive and not conducive to the Pashtun/Afghan cause. Ahmed Shah Massoud has not been singled out for preferential treatment. All the Mujahideen of the 80's are in the Jirgas of Afghanistan. Gulbaddin Hekmatyaar has been offered re-integration and a stake in Kabul if he turns away from his gods in Rawalpindi. Even Mullah Omar and the Taliban, the most divisive of all factors in Afghanistan, have been offered amnesty and a role in the Government. So, I think you should not fall into the misconception that Massoud has a legacy just because he was a Tajik. You should also note that this is not a Tajik v Pashtun issue. The main thing is to move beyond the mess of the Afghan Fassad and the civil war and strengthen the state institutions of Afghanistan. Digging up the graves of the 80's and 90's won't help, as I am sure you would agree.

With all due respect, and constructiveness aside, please do not such short-handedly waive the cimes of Massoud in the overall destruction of Afghanoistan. I cannot do that the sake of my principle, not neglecting the concerns we both share, shy from denouncing something of such a magnitute (crimes of Massoud) will not help either.

As much as we can be critical of our leaders and bear the responsibility for everything as good Afghan for the sake of peace and harmony, so do our Tajik brothers. Other than we cannot really get to the bottom of this. Sying this, there is general realisation of that and it is felt here even in Kabul if we are to seriously resolve some fundemental issues resolving some conflictual dilemmas which we all have no choice but to take those steps. And as such Massoud is, and should be denounced in for the role he has played and history should remember him as such. To me he is a traitor, I could care less what he did against Taliban, and one cannot ignore the ethnic dimension of his run away struggle against Taliban too. He is the one who started it all.

Your other analysis seems to be too naive and seem ignorant very important issues. I will debate that another time and place, which has no relations to Massoud in the current context. You can also not argue their relation to civil war era with Massoud, in any way to elevate Massoudov from his crimes against our nation. Both Mullah Omar and Gulbadin should also be condemend with the same token. I stress, the views I take I strive to be balanced and impartial.

Cheers.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Salamoona tola ta

I am new to this forum and felt this would be a good thread to make my debut in.

Im a Pakhtun from Ghazni..father is Nekzai Musakhel Kakar and mother is from Andar Ghiljai...as Im a Kakar Im assuming my ancestors were from Zhob...or so Ive been told

I speak Pakhto but not very well. I was born in Kuwait and raised in Canada so English has always been my first language (sharam da I know). I speak Dari...having picked it up from family friends here in Canada (all of whom are Pakhtun by the way but Dari speaking....sharam da I know :p). My Dari isnt perfect either though.

I have a fiance...she is a Herati Farsiwan. So I think I have a unique perspective on this issue.

In an ideal world...I want a united Pakhtunkhwa. I yearn for it. I love my Pakhtuns. Mogh tol yaw yu. There is no difference and strike any who try to create one between you. Law aw Bar Yaw Afghan till I die.

This concept of "Loya Afghanistan" is a wrong concept because you cant have both. You cant have a united Pakhtunkhwa but lay claim to the non Pakhtun areas. Herat...Balkh...Badakhshan...these are not Pakhtun lands...and if we speak frankly...its not "Afghanistan".

So if we desire and yearn for a united Pakhtunkhwa we automatically lose any claim to the Shamal.

As this is not an ideal world...and as a united Pakhtunkhwa (or Khorasan) is just a fantasy we need to speak within the reality of our current situation.

As a brother mentioned earlier...the only feasible solution is some form of supra national union with Pakistan. Im not advocating sacrficing our sovereignty but it is a natural solution economically and politically. It unites the Pakhtuns...it provides Pakistan access to Central Asia and Afghanistan access to the sea. It unites the Baloch. It provides a counterweight to Punjabi regional hegemony.

The only drawback is how the Shamal will react to this.

[Nick]

Dear Khidr welcome to the Forum I first suspected you were not what you said you were. Although your comments were nice and despite I have objection over your claim of Tajik vs Pashtun, something which never exists. But seeing your translation of that Video posted by a Person from anti-Afghan most likely banners of Latif Pedram ie Ismaili related people of Tajikistan. I noticed that you do speak Dari also you noticed the edited part. These anti-Afghans have edited the Video and made it sound like the guy talking in front of afghans is dissing "Pashtun" the fact that he was referring to Pakistani soldiers involved in Taliban movement. The Video shows over 190 faces of captured persons from Pakistan who answers in Punjabi and identify themselves as Pakistani military soldiers. The Person in the Video also characterizes the "Pakistani claim Pashtuns" who are not in reality are Pashtuns because as he says ever their language is not understandable "Gappesham Mahlum namesha" and that they sound like if an Punjabi speaks Pashtu, this was how they noticed that Taliban are not fully supported by Pashtun but rather by Punjabis.

I assume he was referring to Hindko or minorities of NWFP who were always in support of invaders, even during British era the men like Ayub Khan with last name "Khan" was labeled as Pathan, and dissed the name and identity of ours.


I have Full video of this one as well as 3 other ones I will try to upload the unedited version of this video. Because the people who posted this are doing these purposely to piss off our Pashtun brothers against us Farsiwans.



Also another objection which I have is the word "Tajik" if you have pride in the word "Tajik" you must also have a good reason for taking pride. Now tell me this, according to Wikipedia aside from Ali Shah Nawahi, other 3 poets have been dating from Saadi to Khasgari and Rumi. Can you as a farsiwan bring me that section which mentions the word "Tajik" is so I too will take pride for the word "Tajik" but if you bring me an unknown sufi-mystical general word like "Tajiyan" which means honored, crowned one, which has no connection to ethnic related people or Qwam "Tajik" please refrain from doing so cause I have argued against that for 5 years, and I have looked every pages of Saadi to see if he comes up again with some sort of signs to a Qwam or something and I found non.

I personally lived 4 years in Tajikistan. After seeing what natives of Turkics saw I only concluded that its true to what Turkics claim regarding Tajiks by Root are Turkic [[See Gesu Jahangiri, The premises for the construction of a Tajik National Identity, 1920–to 1930” in Tajikistan: The Trials of Independence, ed. Mohammad Reza Djalili, Frederic Grare, and Shirin Akiner (Great Britain: St Martin's Press, 1998), pp. 14 to 41. ]]
By tongue they are Persian but by looks, race, dress, tradition and mixed culture they are more Turkic.
DO I agree with the word "Tajik" being enforced on us by Russians, and we say NO We are not Tajik. Yes the name has been applied to as and as members in here asked do we feel being associated with Tajikistan. We say NO.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Brother Khird

Where can we begin on unifying? I want to see us unified.

we have so much ethnic tension in Afghanistan how do initiate this, what demands do Tajiks want?

Malgariya, there are no 'Tajik' demands, no 'Pashtun' demands and no 'Uzbek' demands. Every citizen of Afghanistan has a right to speak, be educated in and develop his mother language, be it Pashto, Dari or Turkmeni. Political lobbying and political pressure groups are natural things. The stability of the Afghan Republic is in the interest of all the ethnicities in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan used to be a area of land where 85% to 90% or more of the inhabitants were Pashtun. After 1893 however, the demographics of Afghanistan changed drastically. From a virtually pure Pashtun state, the country became an ethnically diverse entity where Pashtuns barely made up half the population. Decades of war in the south and east and relative peace in the non-Pashtun north resulted in further changes of demographics. Now, Central Asian Turks and Turko-Persians want parity with Pashtuns. When a subject nation wants to become your equal or superior, you KNOW things have become pretty rotten.