West and the Rest- A discourse with Yasmina, Gladstonezai, and faye

[randolph85]

wouldn't most muslims who choose to live in a secular country, be secular muslims?

secularism is a mindset and 99.999% of people have no say in the matter when living in a secular country, including the white trash who have 7 variations of "support our troops" and "don't thread on me" bumper stickers on the back of their trucks.

toramana and the like would still have a secular mind state whether he were living in waziristan or los angeles. him living in waziristan and having these ideas would not make waziristan secular.

the fact is that most muslims who have immigrated to the west have done so under duress at home, not because they chose to ditch their religion. their religiousity had no more bearing in their homeland than it does in their adoptive homeland.

[یاسمینه]

How an infant becomes a Muslim? By being born from Muslim father/parents and whispering to his ear azan/ azan + iqama? So to call someone born from Muslim parents, who in his adult life in not too religious? From birth he is still a Muslim. Can a Muslim renounce his religion?
I also agree with the statement that one can't call himself a Muslim if he isn't a religious person.
Maybe the term Muslim has two meanings - one for someone who is Muslim "by birth" and second one for someone who is an ardent follower of Islam?

[faye]

secularism is a mindset and 99.999% of people have no say in the matter when living in a secular country, including the white trash who have 7 variations of "support our troops" and "don't thread on me" bumper stickers on the back of their trucks.

toramana and the like would still have a secular mind state whether he were living in waziristan or los angeles. him living in waziristan and having these ideas would not make waziristan secular.

the fact is that most muslims who have immigrated to the west have done so under duress at home, not because they chose to ditch their religion. their religiousity had no more bearing in their homeland than it does in their adoptive homeland.

i love the way you have to throw in your 'white trash' racism, randolph.

so, thinking that a secular form of government is ok, stops you from being a muslim?
well, the systems at 'home' were not working or you had been invaded by the likes of your now, 'home country'. does that stop you from liking a secular form of governing and losing your religion?

try not to bitch out, randy.

[Toramana]

you lose all credibility when calling yourself a muslim and a secularist. **** is ridiculous and you want people with an iq over 70 to buy it?

you fear allah and the last day and believe his word to be the supreme truth as given to us in the quran but you believe in a secular life and society? what?

there is a reason that this doesn't go over well with muslims and the people who actually buy into the crap are pundits on western news networks.

I hope you would stop terrorize me into submission to your version of what it is to be a Muslim and what not by invoking the subjective interpretation and presumed fear of God's disapproval.

There are 72 sects of Islam and every sect has declared every other sect heretic. By that criterion, you are also a "kafir" to the follower of some other sect.

Secularism means sectarian religious fascists stop fighting and barking like dogs and keep their faith to themselves and don't bother others with their irrational dogmatic non-sense.

[Toramana]

secularism is a mindset and 99.999% of people have no say in the matter when living in a secular country, including the white trash who have 7 variations of "support our troops" and "don't thread on me" bumper stickers on the back of their trucks.

toramana and the like would still have a secular mind state whether he were living in waziristan or los angeles. him living in waziristan and having these ideas would not make waziristan secular.

the fact is that most muslims who have immigrated to the west have done so under duress at home, not because they chose to ditch their religion. their religiousity had no more bearing in their homeland than it does in their adoptive homeland.

yes, those in the West who feel insecure and cannot cope with modern way of life seek refuge in some puritan khalafath of the bygone ages --- it is a good thing though the folk back home are moderately secular as long as not provoked by some rabies-bitten Islamist fanatic.

[Joey_Gladstonezai]

Toramana, white people are more dangerous than any Islamic fanatic. At least the latter have clear goals and don't hide their objectives. What are the objectives of white people waging all the wars they have in history? Also, if they really believe in freedom for all, why shouldn't people have the right to enforce and live by Shariah? Shouldn't that be a people's right if they want it?

[کیش]

It isn't necessarily the West which dilapidated homogenous cultures of the world. The blame is placed on the globalization of corporations.

Use your own inferences to evaluate the statement.

[Joey_Gladstonezai]

By the way, white Europeans are the tribes of Gog and Magog according to notable scholars of eschatology. They are inherently evil as a people. Which is not to say that they can not become Muslim, they can--but on the whole they were created by God to test mankind with their mischief. Anyone who follows them is also of them.

And I don't consider myself white due to my Pashtun ancestry.

[TolloAfghanSpinDai]

By the way, white Europeans are the tribes of Gog and Magog according to notable scholars of eschatology. They are inherently evil as a people. Which is not to say that they can not become Muslim, they can--but on the whole they were created by God to test mankind with their mischief. Anyone who follows them is also of them.

And I don't consider myself white due to my Pashtun ancestry.

but 50% + blood is white, and you said your full line, i mean full line father side was not pashtun.


I consider myself white because i think Pashtuns are white! Well, the pure blooded Pashtoons.

[Joey_Gladstonezai]

but 50% + blood is white, and you said your full line, i mean full line father side was not pashtun.


I consider myself white because i think Pashtuns are white! Well, the pure blooded Pashtoons.

Well, according to the so-called one drop rule, whites themselves wouldn't consider me white. If the 50% thing were true, Obama wouldn't be called a black president. Many or most white people will never consider you as equal to them. It doesn't matter if you are light or dark. If you are a Muslim and a Pashtun they will view their lives and existence as more valuable and important than yours. Such is their character.

De Pashtano weena aw hadona za dwaro tarafo ta larem. Za pa asal ke slamat Pashtun ym. Lol.

[یاسمینه]

Here is the answer of a cancer epidemiolgist, linguistically skewed orientalist of Asian origins in one.

Is it possible that West changed his attitude to the rest of the world? Theoretically it would be possible. West would have to get rid of a feeling of its superiority and excellence. Also would have to learn the history and realize that the so-called Western civilization would not exist without the Eastern component. I mean not only scientific influences, but also the culture. West is associated with Christianity, but few know how many elements in Christianity come from ancient religions of Babylon, or Persia. Trivializing, even vine Shiraz comes from the East.
Understanding of the culture is the key for overcoming inequalities between the West and the rest of the world. I have the impression that cultural aspects are denied in contemporary international relations. Politicians, analysts are trying to develop various strategies of conquest (economic, military), completely ignoring culture. I am convinced that a deep knowledge of the history, language, literature, would avoid many many conflicts. Quoting carefully selected pieces of poetry or proverbs can alleviate the conversation tone, but the politicians don't care about wasting time to learn poems and proverbs.
West is an ignorant, greedy ignorant. On the one hand, Western tends to treat others as a scapegoat, assign them everything what is negative. Exaggerating the problem of bacha bazi, rapes, etc, while the same phenomena are no exception in the West. This leads to a conscious or unconscious persistence of negative stereotypes. They do this by the media, politics, and then the negative ratings are unthinkingly reproduced by ordinary people. On the other hand the West on the pretext of help plunders these countries. Maybe the greed made that Afghanistan is the first country in the world that has a fully mapped mineral resources. West has not done it for free. West spent on this project too much and definitely will expect repayment with high interest.
Greed makes that inventions like mine kafon or rats trained in mines detection seems to be ignored. I have the impression that the spread of these inventions would deprived the armies of another reason for which they are still in Afghanistan.
West likes to give the impression that its military presence is essential and that the good of Afghanistan depends on it.


Ignorance of the culture also makes the West does not know how to help. If one hundredth of money spent on foreign troops in Afghanistan was dedicated to foreign scholarships for Afghans, this would be more beneficial. Investment in education and promoting positive aspects of culture is probably the best way to provide so called help. But the West likes to help on their own terms, based on ignorance. List of failed projects is long - Helmand water, landfills in Kabul etc.
" I'll help you and you in your gratitude will have to let me plounder your country." This is how it looks like to me.

I am writing that it is very important that West should understand other cultures. But being on this forum I have a feeling that the understanding of different cultures (not only in the West vs the rest) is difficult for everybody. This forum is also a place where other religions and cultures are the objects of ridicule and mockery, like Indian culture is regularly undervalued (at least).
If we do not respect others, we won't be respected either. This is, unfortunately, the symmetrical relationship.

Indeed, the West has much more to do in terms of closing the gap, but as in any relationship, both parties should be involved in this process. This was theory. Personally, I doubt that the West will ever get rid of his ignorance and imperialist tendencies.

[Tjanaparh]

This is all power game. Imperialism is not only limited to the West. When East had power it also invaded others and established empires. Arabs, Persians, Afghans, Mongols, Turks all were imperialists when they could. Now they cannot so complaining of others. West at least these days do not occupy lands physically. Materialism has some benefits for material development. Poverty is the root of all evils. If we strike a balance in matter and spirit then we will achieve the ideal. Even in West now a days the craze for spiritualism and Sufism is on increase. In the East mostly we have neither material development nor spiritual. In Wahabi Islam both materialism and Sufism are rejected.

I agree with You , Imperialism isn't limited to the West and i even wouldn't include the western imperialism in culture of western countries but would see it as deep social illness. The difference to other imperis is that even if imperialism isn't limited to the west, it is the western imperialism that has no limits. Empires have been many, even my small Armenia once created an empire during king Tigran the second. I have to make by the way a remark, I get somehow in influene of that east/west division how it is often presented here, that is used probably to have it more easy, still i do not believe in a real existance of east and west, nor can the world be simplified into such a division.

I have to disagree with you if I understood you well(correct me if I missunderstood you), materialism leeds only to the material enrichment of the society that has implied it, but it creates poverty.
I even won't mention complicated petrol/mineral buisnesses.
Look only on western lifestyle( Italian coffe, english tee, cashmere and cotton clothes, tobacco, christmas cookies with ginger and cinnamon...all the listed are produced relatively cheap in poor countries otherwise they could never be part of everyday culture of an european) - this creates in poor people a big wish - this wwestern dream. It is so strong that I know people who in Armenia have or had big fields full of fruit trees, their own houses and came to europe or to live on wellfare or to work as a kind os slaves, still when they visit Armenia they think to be on a superior step and are highly respected by the simple ignorant people, not even mentioning all the brands of cloths , cars... that the west produces and how much crimes are done in poor countries to increase the status of a person having these articles.
Moreover, this materialistic culture became a culture of waste production, even if recycling exists it is too insufficient to compare it with production of ccheap everyday plastics. When I was small all was made of glass without any kinds of pubb;icities and colourfull etickets, people went to by milk, because it was milk and not "Ustad Valod's special milk, the milk with from cow that loves You", this produces so much garbage that i am really impressed. When I was small my family had 4 plastic bags, that we used to wash and dry when they became dirty and then to use again, my grandmother didn't let me play with them to keep them, nowdays you get these plastic bags thrown in your face from everywhere, this is also part of materialistic culture, but to live like this is needed petrol, all this brings a lot of problems to nature.
Infact the most heavy problem of western society is its way of living appart from nature using it sources, and this is spreading like a cancer everywhere.
Sufism, yes very nice if it is understood and followed as people like Jalaladdin Balkhi taught, but who does so? People today unfortunately use Sufi culture more as entertainment, and even the Sufi orders became more a turistic interest or degraded to a level of teacher worship, not knowledge worship.
I agree on how you describe things in the east, but look that most people have the dream of becoming same as the west, as you said. That means that the kind of materialistic mindset already won them. You won't find many people really insomehow independent in their way of life.

[faye]

that made me laugh, the plastic bag washing. i do it all the time.
we have started to not be given plastic bags at a lot of stores, which is great. you have to pay for them if you want them and instead, the stores recycle their empty boxes for you to use.

[Khostai]

Altough materialism is great in the West but its not bigger than what it is in the East. And by the way Western culture is more that just flashy cars and expensive cofee, Western culture has also produced great thinkers and philosophers, and not to forget the countless inventions.....

Bringing up just one negative aspect of peopels culture and than saying thats how West is, is wrong, its like saying that Pashtuns can only produce radicalls and taliban, and are not capable of making art, music and poetry.

[یاسمینه]

I should add that West till some extent realizes that culture is an important tool. That's why Human Terrain System was created. The official version said that the program was invented to help American soldiers in better understanding the needs of local people in Iraq and Afghanistan. But after a few years, even the anthropologists who worked in the system say that the main objective of HTS is to strengthen American Imperialism.
I do not think that the West will ever learn to think in other terms.