Che Guevara and the Soviets

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I can grasp the brutality of both sides---but objectively speaking the other side was a bit more civil than the savage Mujahideen-donkeyeens who destroyed schools, bridges, hospitals, ---ultimate canable.

Toramana as an Afghan who has family members who directly experienced the things the Soviets did, including poisoning rivers, setting up mines to specifically kill and maim children. Systematic rapes of women (yes they did this to Pashtun women and there are NUMEROUS testimonies by women).

for you to say these things is not only undermining what they went through but a great insult to it all.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Toramana as an Afghan who has family members who directly experienced the things the Soviets did, including poisoning rivers, setting up mines to specifically kill and maim children. Systematic rapes of women (yes they did this to Pashtun women and there are NUMEROUS testimonies by women).

for you to say these things is not only undermining what they went through but a great insult to it all.

Uh not to mention the fact that Hekmetyaar and Mossoud firing rockets into kabul haphazardly hoping to hit eachother is by fact less destructive than carpet bombing a village. The mechanism by which carpet bombing works is CONTROLLED areal bombardment of a piece of land in a gridlike manner to ensure not simply maximal damage - but scorched earth and decimation. In the former scenario both are hoping that their rockets hit one of the other guys men. In the latter, the copter operator is SURE that his affects are going to destroy anything that moves.

http://www.memidex.com/carpet-bombing

It is purposefully done in a manner to avoid a precision target.

And that video I posted has DIRECT footage of the copter doing that to a farming village in Panjshir.

These guys are like Republicans and Democrats clinging to issues and not understanding the history and nuances. They do not see the finer details... they are fed a narrative by their party Godfathers. Basically, they are a reflection of that idiot MQM party in Karachi - no better no worse.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

well obiously Toramana is portraying a narrative with a motivation to condemn the Mujahideen but he doesn't have to even go that far

He can just call the Mujahideen hypcrites and that suffices.

[khushal]

^^A hypocrit calling others hypocrit. Classic.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

^^^^ fits your description perfectly

[Khostai]

Toramana are you saying the backwards thinking Pashtunwali which rests itself on the despotic control of tribal chieftains and purtitanical moral bullying was intrinsically willing to embrace the Soviets if it weren't for the Pakistani and Saudi supported radicals urging them on?

I think Toramana means that if the foreigners didn't help the mujhahidin the Communist goverment could have handel it. But you are right the primitive Pashtunwali whith the tribal leaders who were power hungry dogs, toghether whith the ethnofacist of the NA would do anything to not loose. Thats also what I hear from a lot of Afghans, they say that communist goverment only fell becuase Afghanistan was shut down from the world only Russia gave aid. I bet if the revolution was started by other secular ideologie and not communist, Afghanistan would be the same as the other muslims nations. The raise of the taliban and mujhahidin would never happen.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Well yes and no, I think even communism would have worked with a much more gradual approach. I mean think about it; the Much like Amanullah Khan, the communists came in and said "Hey guess what? everything you hold sacred and as the standard for right and wrong? Well it's bull**** so we're bringing something we learned from a foreign power who thinks you guys are worthless trash in need of their guidance"

I mean what did they expect the reaction to be in that context? They should never have even said they're changing things, but do what Tariq Ramadan did and give it more of a "Islamic/Pashtunwali" sounding framework and ease into everything, Then the power of tribal chiefs would have miminalized, kids would have gone to school and start shunning the backwards ideas of Religious Bigots and Pashtunwali idiots and MILLIONS of lives not lost. The people may not have won without foreign help, but it would have taken a long long long time to succeed and they'd probably end up killing more Afghan civilians anyways. Which would have prevented their progress.

I think you actually gave a similar argument before right?

[Khostai]

Well yes and no, I think even communism would have worked with a much more gradual approach. I mean think about it; the Much like Amanullah Khan, the communists came in and said "Hey guess what? everything you hold sacred and as the standard for right and wrong? Well it's bull**** so we're bringing something we learned from a foreign power who thinks you guys are worthless trash in need of their guidance"

I mean what did they expect the reaction to be in that context? They should never have even said they're changing things, but do what Tariq Ramadan did and give it more of a "Islamic/Pashtunwali" sounding framework and ease into everything, Then the power of tribal chiefs would have miminalized, kids would have gone to school and start shunning the backwards ideas of Religious Bigots and Pashtunwali idiots and MILLIONS of lives not lost. The people may not have won without foreign help, but it would have taken a long long long time to succeed and they'd probably end up killing more Afghan civilians anyways. Which would have prevented their progress.

I think you actually gave a similar argument before right?

The change that communist goverment brought was not that radical. Peopel are really exagerating things. First the communist didn't force peopel to dress like foreigners and adopte western culture, what Amanullah did.

In khost after the revolution the communist goverment didn't force peopel to modernise, the same whith other cities and vilages in Afghanistan, my mother even told me that in Khost the communist goverment knew that women are not allowed to go alone outside, but they still wanted to iliminate iliteracy so they sended women teachers to homes of peopel to help them whith reading and wrighting.

The school for children before communist era where also secular, you had only a real smal part where the teacher explaind about religion the rest was not that difrent than what communist teached at schools. How to pray and other stuff where taught by the local mullah. And like in the old days women who worked at school or goverment were not allowed to wear burqa.

And actualy in one video you can see the wife of Najibullah were she was dressed in Afghan clothing, and not half naked like the family of the former king. They did gave women equal rights and they secularised the constitution. They wanted to end the Feudal structure of the warlords and they destributed the land among the peopel, I think that was one of the things that led to the uprising.

The whole propagand of communist did that and did this is totaly fabricated, the only peopel who suffered directly under communist regime where the religious pshychopaths who wanted taliban style goverment.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

The change that communist goverment brought was not that radical. Peopel are really exagerating things. First the communist didn't force peopel to dress like foreigners and adopte western culture, what Amanullah did.

In khost after the revolution the communist goverment didn't force peopel to modernise, the same whith other cities and vilages in Afghanistan, my mother even told me that in Khost the communist goverment knew that women are not allowed to go alone outside, but they still wanted to iliminate iliteracy so they sended women teachers to homes of peopel to help them whith reading and wrighting.

The school for children before communist era where also secular, you had only a real smal part where the teacher explaind about religion the rest was not that difrent than what communist teached at schools. How to pray and other stuff where taught by the local mullah. And like in the old days women who worked at school or goverment were not allowed to wear burqa.

And actualy in one video you can see the wife of Najibullah were she was dressed in Afghan clothing, and not half naked like the family of the former king. They did gave women equal rights and they secularised the constitution. They wanted to end the Feudal structure of the warlords and they destributed the land among the peopel, I think that was one of the things that led to the uprising.

The whole propagand of communist did that and did this is totaly fabricated, the only peopel who suffered directly under communist regime where the religious pshychopaths who wanted taliban style goverment.

Well certain communists yes; but then you had Taraki who said things like "in a year no one will be going to the Mosque"

that's a BOLD statement to make if you're trying to change people gradually.

In Najibullah's case; it can be argued he was trying to "save" himself by putting on a brand new image. I'm not sure at which time span these events you spoke of happened; but I suspect it might be later on when the inevitability of a communist downfall would be imminent. They had videos of Najibullah praying munz too with a pakol on. That's clearly a "publicity campaign" to win back sympathy.

[Khostai]

Noor Muhammad Taraki - YouTube

[khushal]

The change that communist goverment brought was not that radical. Peopel are really exagerating things. First the communist didn't force peopel to dress like foreigners and adopte western culture, what Amanullah did.

In khost after the revolution the communist goverment didn't force peopel to modernise, the same whith other cities and vilages in Afghanistan, my mother even told me that in Khost the communist goverment knew that women are not allowed to go alone outside, but they still wanted to iliminate iliteracy so they sended women teachers to homes of peopel to help them whith reading and wrighting.

The school for children before communist era where also secular, you had only a real smal part where the teacher explaind about religion the rest was not that difrent than what communist teached at schools. How to pray and other stuff where taught by the local mullah. And like in the old days women who worked at school or goverment were not allowed to wear burqa.

And actualy in one video you can see the wife of Najibullah were she was dressed in Afghan clothing, and not half naked like the family of the former king. They did gave women equal rights and they secularised the constitution. They wanted to end the Feudal structure of the warlords and they destributed the land among the peopel, I think that was one of the things that led to the uprising.

The whole propagand of communist did that and did this is totaly fabricated, the only peopel who suffered directly under communist regime where the religious pshychopaths who wanted taliban style goverment.

Those not so radical communists razed my village and neighboring villages to the ground. Not one house was left standing. The planes and helicopters that bombed came from khost.
When the revolution happened, the commies hunted down dauds supporters and western educated people, killed and dumped them in unmarked mass graves. So your saying the 2 million people killed was prapoganda. I can understand someone defending the American invasion, but it takes extreme lack of compassion to defend the soviet invasion or the communist revolution. That piece of Shyt Karmel should have met the same fate as Najib and hung from the streets of Kabul.

[abassinafghan]

[QUOTE] I can understand someone defending the American invasion,[/QUOTE

how does it come ???

[khushal]

[QUOTE=abassinafghan;657852]

I can understand someone defending the American invasion,[/QUOTE

how does it come ???

Beleive me I am not a defender of it, but I can understand how people are manipulated into how its a good thing for Afghans but how the hell can you manipulate someone into thinking the Soviets were angels like Khostai is saying.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

[QUOTE=khushal;657906]

Beleive me I am not a defender of it, but I can understand how people are manipulated into how its a good thing for Afghans but how the hell can you manipulate someone into thinking the Soviets were angels like Khostai is saying.

I agree the Taliban's crimes have manipulated people into supporting the Americans.

[Khostai]

[QUOTE=khushal;657906]

Beleive me I am not a defender of it, but I can understand how people are manipulated into how its a good thing for Afghans but how the hell can you manipulate someone into thinking the Soviets were angels like Khostai is saying.

I was talking about the communist of Afghanistan and not the Sovjets. I just said that this whole discussion about that the Afghan communist were really radical is not true becuase in most way they were not that difrent from the former ruling elite. That was my point.