the animosity towards pakistan - completely illogical

[r3alist]

salam all

i will start by saying i dont get it

lets take some points

the isi wants to destabilise afghanistan

i mean really, how ridiculous can you get?

lets remember some facts

- the mujhadeen were created not by the isi, but by think tanks in america who reasoned that afghan nationalism/religiousity can be used as a pawn to fight soviets - (and guess what, they were right!) - this was all conceived in the USA, i submit YouTube - Zbigniew Brzezinski to Jihadists: Your cause is right! video for proof, and will leave it at that, who is to blame for that?


next point

pakistan created the taliban

or perhaps the religious fanatics of mujhadeen created by the US who were looking for something to do?

ofcourse it was the ISI and only the ISIwho created the ground support for the taliban, not the afghans themselves.


who holds the moral responsibility to fix afghanistan after the soviet collapse? the pakistani government who was an obedient pawn of the US or the US themselves who called the shots?



yes the ISI has connections with the taliban, but will anyone answer why that is remarkable in any sense?

pakistans needs viv a vis afghanistan is simple, a friendly government - thats it!!!!


unfotunately (i mean this sincerely) pakistan's only option after soviet collapse was to allow a brutal regime - again not their fault per se, short sighted and damaging - but can an afghan wager a better suggestion - should pakistan have tried to usher in a liberal democracy to the warring afghan tribes and the mujhadeen

this is all deeply painful and regrettable, afghan loss is felt in pakistan deeply, i know some pashtuns in here see pakistani's as their enemies but we see you as brothers so i wonder what has clouded your reason

i welcome all responses.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Go back and re read some history. The Soviet-Afghan war was funded by US, and Saudi and the architects of it were zbigniew brzezinski and ISI. The money was funded to ISI and they systematically created 7 mujahideen groups. However, prior to the Soviet war they were destabilizing Sardar Daud's government via hekmatyaar and Massoud.

It is not that the enmity is illogical, rather any attempts to support Pakistan is(at least from the point of view of Pashtuns) .

[r3alist]

Go back and re read some history. The Soviet-Afghan war was funded by US, and Saudi and the architects of it were zbigniew brzezinski and ISI. The money was funded to ISI and they systematically created 7 mujahideen groups. However, prior to the Soviet war they were destabilizing Sardar Daud's government via hekmatyaar and Massoud.

It is not that the enmity is illogical, rather any attempts to support Pakistan is(at least from the point of view of Pashtuns) .

i believe that the concept of creating the mujhadeen had nothing to do with pakistan, it all stemmed from wanting to give russia their own vietnam, in that sense i hope to help you understand that both pakistan/afghanistan were caught up in a wider game of which both were pawns, both allowed themselves to be used and abused.

so why you blame pakistan for this is illogical, is pakistan responsible for the cold war? or for us ambitions to hurt russia, i think not, yet your persistence to blame pakistan for this remains.

the pashtuns of pakistan helped the pashtuns of afghanistan and supported them to over throw russians invaders, in theory you could be speaking russian by now....

[BLS_1919v2.0]

i believe that the concept of creating the mujhadeen had nothing to do with pakistan, it all stemmed from wanting to give russia their own vietnam, in that sense i hope to help you understand that both pakistan/afghanistan were caught up in a wider game of which both were pawns, both allowed themselves to be used and abused.

so why you blame pakistan for this is illogical, is pakistan responsible for the cold war? or for us ambitions to hurt russia, i think not, yet your persistence to blame pakistan for this remains.

the pashtuns of pakistan helped the pashtuns of afghanistan and supported them to over throw russians invaders, in theory you could be speaking russian by now....

In theory you are setting up weak theories and worse arguments. ISI had a hand in the policy, we are not saying they are the only one. The issue with the 7 mujahideen groups was the effect it had after, and lets not forget that you are legally excusing Pakistan and USA's interference in another country's affairs. Pakistan is part of the cold war, and if it wasn't for the cold war it would have been created (there are many books and scholars who discuss this). Pakistan signed on Cento, and happily sided itself with the US. Like I told you, Pakistan's ISI interfered since the 70s (prior to any Soviets). Pashtunkhwa Pashtuns would always support them, that is not the point. However, the training, arming, and proxy wars was not done by Pashtunkhwa people. Don't water down such issues,

[khyaal]

salam all

i will start by saying i dont get it

lets take some points



i mean really, how ridiculous can you get?

lets remember some facts

- the mujhadeen were created not by the isi, but by think tanks in america who reasoned that afghan nationalism/religiousity can be used as a pawn to fight soviets - (and guess what, they were right!) - this was all conceived in the USA, i submit YouTube - Zbigniew Brzezinski to Jihadists: Your cause is right! video for proof, and will leave it at that, who is to blame for that?


next point



or perhaps the religious fanatics of mujhadeen created by the US who were looking for something to do?

ofcourse it was the ISI and only the ISIwho created the ground support for the taliban, not the afghans themselves.


who holds the moral responsibility to fix afghanistan after the soviet collapse? the pakistani government who was an obedient pawn of the US or the US themselves who called the shots?



yes the ISI has connections with the taliban, but will anyone answer why that is remarkable in any sense?

pakistans needs viv a vis afghanistan is simple, a friendly government - thats it!!!!


unfotunately (i mean this sincerely) pakistan's only option after soviet collapse was to allow a brutal regime - again not their fault per se, short sighted and damaging - but can an afghan wager a better suggestion - should pakistan have tried to usher in a liberal democracy to the warring afghan tribes and the mujhadeen

this is all deeply painful and regrettable, afghan loss is felt in pakistan deeply, i know some pashtuns in here see pakistani's as their enemies but we see you as brothers so i wonder what has clouded your reason

i welcome all responses.

Since you are from Punjab you don't know that there are many Pashutns on this forum from Occupied Pakhtunkhwa. So please don't attribute our hatred for Pakistan to the people of Azad afghanistan. They have their own views and opinions about you people.

As for as Punjab's interefernce is concerned it started from the early fifties, not from lran, China or India but from the Punjabis Pakistan.

After the Saur revolution again it was n't India, Iran or China to play the dirty role of the agent of capitalist West but it was again Pakistan who had an ultra agenda of occupying afghanistan.

[r3alist]

ISI had a hand in the policy, we are not saying they are the only one.

its pretty well documented that the mujhadeen was a us concept, not really going to argue this point.

the isi would have helped for sure, but thats because the us basically owned them, which i can comfortably admit, yet you cannot admit a simple thing like the US holds the ULTIMATE responsibility for the taliban

and lets not forget that you are legally excusing Pakistan and USA's interference in another country's affairs.

i am not trying to excuse anything in this sorry state of affairs, merely trying to reason with you that pakistan does not hold ultimate responsibility for this mess, far from it.

Pakistan is part of the cold war,

not by choice

and if it wasn't for the cold war it would have been created (there are many books and scholars who discuss this).

what would have been created?

However, the training, arming, and proxy wars was not done by Pashtunkhwa people.

the fighting was, but ofcourse the pak army put a magic spell on them that made them behave in such a way that they would not normally

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Realist you are putting forward abstract arguments that are not documented by any facts. Col Imam of ISI proudly talked about taliban, so did naseerullah Babarr, these are all high officials then. They are admitting to it, so what magical information do you have that counters their own? I am not interested in what is x,y,z's interests, but rather what are the interests of Pashtuns/Afghans. And judging from the policy of the past 30 years, Pakistan surely isn't.

[amna.]

They were even leaked conversations that prove what BLS and Khyaal are trying to say. What do you have to say about that Realist?

[r3alist]

Realist you are putting forward abstract arguments that are not documented by any facts. Col Imam of ISI proudly talked about taliban, so did naseerullah Babarr, these are all high officials then. They are admitting to it, so what magical information do you have that counters their own? I am not interested in what is x,y,z's interests, but rather what are the interests of Pashtuns/Afghans. And judging from the policy of the past 30 years, Pakistan surely isn't.

yes some pakistani's were happy about the taliban because it was a safe option for pakistan - and sure its bad for you, but i hardly think its the worst crime, if a crime at all

let me throw back one question to you - after the soviets had been defeated what would you expect pakistan to do? -bring liberal democracy to afghanistan? any bright ideas?

and if pakistan is so bad for pashtuns why do so many come to pakistan?

many pashtuns have found a roof and relative peace in pakistan, i guess thats no good for them because the evil isi are just tricking them again

[khyaal]

yes some pakistani's were happy about the taliban because it was a safe option for pakistan - and sure its bad for you, but i hardly think its the worst crime, if a crime at all

let me throw back one question to you - after the soviets had been defeated what would you expect pakistan to do? -bring liberal democracy to afghanistan? any bright ideas?

Pakistan sabotaged Geneva accord and in retaliation dethroned the Sindhi prime miniter Junejo. Pakistan wanted its puppet regime in afghanistan and that's why it initiated a civil war inside afghanistan.

[QUOTE]and if pakistan is so bad for pashtuns why do so many come to pakistan? So you think the land of Pashtunkwha was donated to Pashtuns by Punjab, go and just the 1940 resolution prepared by a Qadiani Sir Zafarullah.

many pashtuns have found a roof and relative peace in pakistan, i guess thats no good for them because the evil isi are just tricking them again

What nonsense is this? The pashtun land in Pakistan is one of the federating units of Pakistan. Besides it has 46000 sq miles of land in Balochistan. The northern areas also historically belong to Pashtuns and do remeber FATA, the strategic gold mine for Punjab.

[r3alist]

Pakistan sabotaged Geneva accord and in retaliation dethroned the Sindhi prime miniter Junejo. Pakistan wanted its puppet regime in afghanistan and that's why it initiated a civil war inside afghanistan.

sorry, this does not make sense, who did what when and why?

What nonsense is this? The pashtun land in Pakistan is one of the federating units of Pakistan.

Afghan refugees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[BLS_1919v2.0]

sorry, this does not make sense, who did what when and why?



Afghan refugees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Khyaal basically answered the question, but I am surprised you don't know about the 90s and in that your country is not that innocent. I don't know what you are on about to be honest. Go read up on it and then come back.

We have discussed the issue of 'refugees' to death, go check it in other threads.

[r3alist]

Khyaal basically answered the question, but I am surprised you don't know about the 90s and in that your country is not that innocent. I don't know what you are on about to be honest. Go read up on it and then come back.

We have discussed the issue of 'refugees' to death, go check it in other threads.

its not really helping me when you ask me to go "read up on it" yet fail to reference the specific material you are referring to, how do i know it exists

[khyaal]

sorry, this does not make sense, who did what when and why?



Afghan refugees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

k


Remember that Pakistan earned over 40 billion dollars over thier heads and Punjab got the opportunity to assemble their nuclear weapons through the smuggled parts from the international black market, which they otherwise could not do. All these were the side advantages Pakistan got through that war.

And be informed that over ninety percent of the displaced afghans got settled in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Southern Pakhutnkhwa and not in Punjab. The land of Pakhtunkhwa historically belong to them and not to any Bihiari or Punjabi.

[r3alist]

k


Remember that Pakistan earned over 40 billion dollars over thier heads and Punjab got the opportunity to assemble their nuclear weapons through the smuggled parts from the international black market, which they otherwise could not do. All these were the side advantages Pakistan got through that war.

And be informed that over ninety percent of the displaced afghans got settled in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Southern Pakhutnkhwa and not in Punjab. The land of Pakhtunkhwa historically belong to them and not to any Bihiari or Punjabi.

this is puzzling and intriguing at the same time

1. where do you get the figure of 40 billion from? is this figure a net income minus expenditures?

2. what connection is there between pak's nuclear programme and the soviet/afghan war? moreso what does the black market have to do with it?

3.so they got absorbed into pakistan - or the boundaries which are acknowledged as pakistan for your benefit