Westerner's acrimony towards Pashtuns

[Toramana]

What do you think are the reasons for that although for the past two centuries, some Western countries have used Pashtun lands and human resource to expand their hegemonic power/influence (Great Game, Cold War, Afghan Jehad/Fasad, and now war on terrorism).

Are the reason for this acrimony rooted in religion, race, and perception of Pashtuns as tribal, conservative, religious lot that resist domination or what?

[faye]

i never even heard of pashtuns till i came across this forum, whilst looking for kuchi dresses.
i have still never heard the word pashtun in any news reports, or articles in australian newspapers or in conversations about muslims.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What do you think are the reasons for that although for the past two centuries, some Western countries have used Pashtun lands and human resource to expand their hegemonic power/influence (Great Game, Cold War, Afghan Jehad/Fasad, and now war on terrorism).

Are the reason for this acrimony are rooted in religion, race, and perception of Pashtuns as tribal, conservative, religious lot that resist domination or what?

A lot of it appears to be geography. Empires appear to converge in this area even historically. You had Mughal and Iranian empires fighting over their border there... Alexander stopped there... the British stopped on its border and tried to take more...

Its prime real restate and a convergence of people wanting that prime real estate to be in their favor. All have agreed on this right? Islamists had seated their new caliphate there... Najib had said the most important fight was there... Russia did not want Americans to tilt Kabul and vice versa... Iran wants to embed the Americans there in an attrition choke hold as Saleh pointed out...

[faye]

oh, god, now the blame is going to the iranians now that osama is dead.

[R3SISTANC3]

Personally I think there is no special reason, we just happen to be in a region where these powers have crossed paths. Almost all tribal societies have evolved, gone extinct or are about to. We are among the last. The Arabs, the Jews, the Persians, the Anglo-Germans, the Indians and Punjabis too. If we want to survive we need to come out of our pity tribal identities and accept a national one. The major difference is that we have been able to resist thus far, but how much further can we?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

i never even heard of pashtuns till i came across this forum, whilst looking for kuchi dresses.
i have still never heard the word pashtun in any news reports, or articles in australian newspapers or in conversations about muslims.

I thought you were in Afghanistan in the 70's?

[Toramana]

Personally I think there is no special reason, we just happen to be in a region where these powers have crossed paths. Almost all tribal societies have evolved, gone extinct or are about to. We are among the last. The Arabs, the Jews, the Persians, the Anglo-Germans, the Indians and Punjabis too. If we want to survive we need to come out of our pity tribal identities and accept a national one. The major difference is that we have been able to resist thus far, but how much further can we?

I agree with that. Our strategic location being at the cross-road of empires and junction of important regions have brought us much of the misfortune (has brought invasions of Pashtun land again and again thus disrupting the process of social, cultural development and nation building). Another reason is (and coupled with the first) the hard terrain needing advanced technology and more organized society to be ruled and utilized and integrated into one whole. Just imagine the task of building communication infrastructures connecting valleys and ravines on our land in order to link various tribes with one another---how difficult it would have been few decades back.

What about Pakistani Army a British colonial creation strengthened later by US? Isn't it one of the causes of our division and political fragmentation? Look at FATA e.g.

But it is 100% correct that we have to change ourselves. But that change should be in terms of social, cultural development and development of human resource. Ultimately, that would lead to dilution of tribal divisions and national integration. Being very weak and facing formidable opposition we cannot bring sudden change in our condition through violent means e.g., militancy ---neither that is ethically a correct path.

[khushal]

I thought you were in Afghanistan in the 70's?

she forgot, because she was high during the time. that afghan hash pretty good faye?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I agree with that. Our strategic location being at the cross-road of empires have brought us much of the misfortune (this has brought invasions of Pashtun land again and again thus disrupting the process of social, cultural development and nation building). Another reason is the hard terrain needing advanced technology and more organized society to be ruled and utilized.

What about Pakistani Army a British colonial creation strengthened later by US? Isn't it one of the causes of our division and political fragmentation? Look at FATA e.g.

But it is 100% correct that we have to change ourselves. But that change should in terms of social, cultural development and development of human resource. Ultimately, that would lead to dilution of tribal divisions and national integration. Being very weak and facing formidable opposition we cannot bring sudden change in our condition through violent means e.g., militancy ---neither that is ethically a correct path.

Well, so what do you propose?

If you had it your way, would everyone lay down weapons right now, hug one another, and start studying astro physics? So carry out the simulation. Everyone studies astrophysics and chemical engineering and finds out that like most 3rd world countries, parts of their native land have been parceled out for development to the highest bidder. What then? You go one way across the country and you find China's own chemical engineers are developing Amu oil ---> Go to the south and find out Shahrani gave a contract to some British firm or someone to harvest minerals. Are you then a permanent intern, supposedly gleaning the wherewithal to conduct such business, machinery, and industrialization from these groups and, like an aeroplane taking off the runway, take eventual ownership of your own personal wealth and fly high? When has that worked in history? Japan and Germany are poor comparisons since the former was already a world stage power and empire and the latter was occupied by genetic kinsmen.

Look at what was done to Mossadegh in the 50s when he tried just that. Iranians had harnessed education and resources and demanded that the british return their oil resources to the nation. Within weeks Operation Ajax was initiated.

Daud tried "strategic balancing" as I like to call it to compare its lunacy with strategic depth; a force stabilizer technique where in some insane world the weakest party of all can somehow force multiple super powers to off balance one another - while you supposedly build up your strength and eventually do what? Ask the entities involved to leave quietly? we saw how that disaster worked out. Let me guess, if the Islamists had just left Daud alone it would have worked? Absurd, Daud was already realizing Russia was too embedded and was purposefully trying to walk the hair line and tilt a bit in the opposite direction.

The only times in history where a people rise are when they are completely autonomous.

Why do you think Khushal Khan Baba had difficulties? His region was not yet autonomous. He was like a herald to Abdali where an exact moment of autonomy came with the death of Nadir Shah whose whole army was gone from Afghanistan at the time and his son had nominal control over the country. The same with Sher Shah, he struck at the exact opportune moment of autonomy.

Without autonomy, noone, Islamist, Communist, Leninist, Republican, Democrat, Jew, Atheist, handicap, genius, pole vaulter, weight lifter, Karate master; none can direct their own selves.

[faye]

I thought you were in Afghanistan in the 70's?

lol, i was but i never heard men there saying, 'iam pashtun', and thumping their chests, like they do on her

[Toramana]

Actually, I was wondering why is this Roharbacher guy so much against Pashtuns notwithstanding the fact that this guy in 1980s made stop-overs in Peshawar and saw first-hand it was mainly at Pashtuns cost they triumphed over Russians. It is said Haldbroke was also venomously against Pashtuns (it is said in the inner circle of ANP Asfandiyar had exchanged harsh words with him).

Asfandiyar Wali Khan mentions that once in a gathering he met Mandeline Albright. And he told her how US had a role in bringing this mayhem and destruction due to its role during 1980s and later. He says to this she (Madeline Albright) replied "didn't have the US the right to pursue its interests"? Asfandiyar says,he became angry and asked her "why should it be at the cost of Pashtuns?".

[faye]

she forgot, because she was high during the time. that afghan hash pretty good faye?

it was good. jealous?

[khushal]

Its hard for tribal structures to break down in this geography. All the variables dont exist and its not just pashtuns, but the nuristani also still exist as tribes. From what I understand, the mongols have detribalized everywhere, but the hazaras live as tribes in this geography.

[Toramana]

Its hard for tribal structures to break down in this geography. All the variables dont exist and its not just pashtuns, but the nuristani also still exist as tribes. From what I understand, the mongols have detribalized everywhere, but the hazaras live as tribes in this geography.

I think it is not just geography. It is also the role of Pashtun Land as an invasion route and as a kind of connecting point for very important regions of Asia e.g., Central Asia, South Asia, Middle East (Iran), and Sinic World (China ---Wakhan Corridor)---also don't forget Persian Gulf and Arabian ocean at a stone-throw distance from Afg. Afghanistan is called cockpit of Asia and whoever controls it has influence in/hold on these region.

Were inhabitants of Gilgit, Kashmir, Nuristan, etc. been on invasion routes and had faced so many invasions, they would also have grown tough and warlike. Imagine an invading army e.g. Mangol army comes and takes away all the livestock of a poor Pashtun somewhere in Nangarhar or in mountains of Waziristan or Khyber (probably also women) ---and imposes tax he cannot pay---He has no option but to fight back to survive.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Actually, I was wondering why is this Roharbacher guy so much against Pashtuns notwithstanding the fact that this guy in 1980s made stop-overs in Peshawar and saw first-hand it was mainly at Pashtuns cost they triumphed over Russians. It is said Haldbroke was also venomously against Pashtuns (it is said in the inner circle of ANP Asfandiyar had exchanged harsh words with him).

Asfandiyar Wali mentions, once in a gathering he met Mandeline Albright. And he told her how US had a role in bringing this mayhem and destruction due to its role during 1980s and later. He says to this she (Madeline Albright) replied "didn't have the US the right to pursue its interests"? Asfandiyar says,he became angry and asked her "why should it be at the cost of Pashtuns?".

Dont play with my emotions man, walking toward the light from time to time like this as I hope you of all will and then plugging your ears.

Albright, when it was told to her by her own people's reporters, that sanctions did nothing but empower Saddam and kill millions of Iraqi babies, said "it was worth the cost." She meant that they were tenderizing Iraq like meat for what was coming.

Monster Madge - YouTube[/URL]

One surgeon told me today that there are 3 types of people in his view: whites, blacks, and everything else is Mexican... he said this when he accidently referred to some Chinese as mexicans and I corrected him... so to Albright your babies and the Iraqis are no different nor are the Mexicans (see the fast and furious scandal)

In my estimation, the average American is concerned with their own area, people, and progress and many of them, if they give you their word, will follow through. But like in most countries and peoples, the ruling elites are different - they are convenience men and women who galvanize through emotive and not evidence based ways.

Rohrbacher, to answer your question, is like any ruling elite - he will use the ways and means to get his goal and then discared both.

If they discard eachother in political matters, and destroy eachothers lives and careers - where do you estimate they put the lives of Jan Shah, Khan Gul, Moneeb Lala and the generic millions of others?

That is the essence of why strategic balancing, ala Karzai or Daud will fail miserably - it ignores the fact that a super power does not idly sit by and let itself be used; its goals contrary to what Karzai says will dominate. In the equation it is:

Karzai input/Central Afghan govt in put = 0 unless Karzai input/Central Govt input = US/NATO goals

US/NATO goals = 10,000 X Iranian goals = -5000 X Pakistani Interests = 10,000Y Central Asian interests = Z; where Y = 0.05 X

So theoretically 10,000 X + -5000 X + 10,000Y + Z is supposed to balance out to 0 so as to allow Karzai input/Central Afghan govt input to emerge.
Absurd.