What do Pakistani Pashtuns mean when they say Lar aw bar yaw Pakhtun

[Haris]

If Khushal Khan Baba actually knew how the bar Pashtuns had thrown away by the lar Pashtuns just to protect their lands from invasion from the British he would have taken his sword out and slain Abdur Rehman Khan.

Just to save themselves they betrayed the lar Pashtuns and handed them over to the British. So we weren't doing deals with the British, we were fighting them. The bar Pashtuns were doing deals with the British then labelled us British slaves after selling us to the British against our will.

Its easy to shout foul after you threw your land away.

Anyone who reads history can know how unfair it is for Afghans to come back after under Abdur Rehman Khan they sold the lar Pashtuns to the British. And why did they do it... only to save themselves from being conquered by the British. Ask them how they got Kandahar back? The British handed it over to them for selling lar Pashtuns to the British. They divided Pashtuns not us.

Lar Pashtuns struggled like dogs against the British. Karlanri federation and the operations against Tribal areas especially Wazirs and Mahsuds were proof of how hard we fought to get rid of the yoke of British rule.

They are real slaves of the British then call us the same just because they betrayed us to the British.

Seriously, you need to stop trumpeting this crap.
Looking over your past posts, it seems to be a common theme.


Abdur Rahman Khan was as much your king as he was ours.
Many of the leaders of the resistance against the British were murdered by him (i.e. Mad Jan Khan). He did not have popular support among the Afghan tribes who had so vehemently opposed the British forces. As a result, to consolidate power, he had to kill those tribal leaders, displace unruly tribes and promote the traitors. In that regard, he was a very effective ruler considering what he had to work with (two super powers at the borders), and the results of that rule can be seen in the consolidation of modern Afghanistan including the conquering of Hazarajat, Herat, Kafiristan etc.

What this means is that it was not the Lar Pashtuns who 'sold the bar Pashtuns'. It was Abdur Rahman Khan & his administration. You make the Lar Pashtuns sound like cowards with your tone as part of your agenda to establish this divide among the Pashtuns on either side of the border.

It was not the will of the lar Pashtuns to sell the land of the bar Pashtuns to the British. Get that into your head. There was no elected government that ruled with the peoples' mandate. So stop insulting my ancestors by claiming that they sold thier brothers "just to save their own skin".


You said "Anyone who reads history..." when it is evident that you have not done so. Let me school you with the knowledge I have of my own peoples.

I come from the Wardag tribe. It is located in Central Afghanistan. It is a part of the Karlanri federation. Much of Sher Ali's army consisted of Wardags. Wardags spearheaded many of the operations against the British including the seige of Kabul and were a strong presence in most of the battles including Maiwand. Wardags are Lar Pashtuns. They made many sacrafices against the British and supported kings like Ayub Khan who fought against the invaders. Hence, when the British installed a loyal puppet in order to leave the Afghan quagmire, there was no love lost between your average Wardag and the aforementioned puppet. Especially when the Wardag tribal chiefs (who had popular support among Pashtuns...even the Bar Pashtuns....i.e. Ghazi Shaheed General Mohammad Jan Khan Wardag who was the first person in history to be elected as general or 'ghatmushr' by the rank & file of the army) who were instrumental in the defence against the British were assassinated by him. When the treaty to officially partition Afghanistan was signed, the Wardags did not support it. Average Wardags, just like other average Lar Pukhtuns & Bar Pukhtuns were not consulted.

Abdur Rahmand Khan was not called the 'Iron Amir' for nothing. He quelled the rebellions throughout the country and effectively silenced the opposition (most of whom were involved in the fight against the British) while consolidating his own rule.

Bar Pashtuns are not cattle to be bought and sold. They are a proud warrior peoples, just like their Lar counterparts. You, in your posts, make them seem vulnerable and helpess when infact they were in the same position (in terms of their opposition to the treaties and the new ruler) as their Lar brothers.



I am not even a nationalist - I couldn't care less whether you love pakistan or hate it. That's your business and it does not concern me at all. What does concern me is when you (who no-one can be sure is even a Pashtun) would dare to insult my ancestors as being cowards 'selling Bar Pashtuns just to save their own skin' and calling them the 'real slaves of the British' when they fought so strongly against the British and opposed Abdur Rahman Khan.


You intellectual dishonesty is undignified & unbecoming.

Afghanis were very cruel at times of division of durand line....my grand parents has told all the stories...the way they had thrown us ....i wish i could hate afghanis.But i still love them...as they are pashtuns.

It would be extremely ignorant of you to hate 'afghanis' because your leaders did zulm on your people. Yes, I said "your leaders" because they were your leaders. Just as they were ours. It was not ordinary Lar Pashtuns who oppressed your people. They fought against the invaders just as hard, if not moreso as the Bar Pashtuns and they did not consent to the division of their land and their seperation from their brothers.

[Admin Khan]

^Well said Haris Khan.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I never claimed that. ^^

But your point was correct.

These guys seem to be as obsessed with India as their ISI-masters.

Unbelievably dumb.

I don´t understand why one would take Nek Mohammads pic.....a guy who sipped tea with Pakistani generals on a daily basis.

Pashtunforums is being overrun by Madrassa-educated would-be suicide bombers.

sorry I thought you were trying to insinuate something else; yes that's exactly what I mean. So much pomp and arrogance fo very little to show for it.

[faye]

we dont need help from india,they should help their own starving peopel and help get those 30million prostitutes have a normal life.

what exactly is your beef with india and indians.
people like yourself are the screamers about muslims being victims of prejudice, but look at you. look at your racist and venemous spittings against other countries and cultures.

[Karachi]

havizsultan what is your back ground? why do you even care?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I am not sure but did Musharaf Bangash write this song?:
Musharaf Bangash song For Pakistan Tehreek-e-insaf Imran Khan - YouTube

its also found here in "My Pashto"
http://mypashto.com/item/videos/9/GS...Federation-ISF

This would put Musharraf Bangash most in line with Shadowgoverner if so and certainly not put him in the Awami style camp.

[faye]

.
Well this only reinforces my ascertaining that you are intellectually dishonest; How will the Penal and Legislative system of Islam which is derived from Theological Doctrine be compatible with Secularism which by definition is separation of Religion and State, and none of its legislative or penal system is based on religious doctrine .....That sort of incompatibility is so glaringly obvious that only a person who's using religion as an agenda strategy could say otherwise

"secular governments had existed in the muslim world since 10th century, according to scholar, ira m. lapidus."

"in early islamic philosophy, averroes presented an argument in 'the decisive treatise', providing a justification for the emancipation of science and philosophy from official ash'ari theology. thus 'averroism' has been considered a precursor to modern secularism."

i read about this a few times in different books and internet sites but these excerpts are from 'islam and secularism'-wikipedia

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Come on guys stop the emotional dog fight. Lets dissect the specifics of Havi's argument where I think parts of it fail.

1) Haris did a wonderful job with the defense of the masses. No way that some random guy in Paktika or Helmand woke up one day and said: hey lop off half of us because it sounds fun.
2) Havi, where did you get the taxation history from?
The closest thing I have I see to what you mention is a copy of a physical letter from Ahmad Shah Abdali to an Afridi tribal leader demanding allegience. The local tribes did have some issue and Timur Shah, Ahmad Shah's son was almost murdered by a Khalil tribal member who wanted to lead an insurrection of the KP province area around Peshawar.

Can you provide some sources?

[pashtun_rise]

The similarity of the Mughals is with the bar Pashtuns. They imposed taxes on the south. Do you know the southern Pashtuns were paying as much as 4 times the tax the northern Pashtun had to pay. See the similarity? Just to save themselves they betrayed the lar Pashtuns and handed them over to the British. So we weren't doing deals with the British, we were fighting them. The bar Pashtuns were doing deals with the British then labelled us British slaves after selling us to the British against our will.

Its easy to shout foul after you threw your land away. Pashtuns have now immersed themselves in the fabric of Pakistan taking part in every institution. 3 people in now or never were Pashtuns. Pashtuns fought for Pakistani independence and Quaid E Azam helped us gain freedom. Only since the war on terror things have become far worse for the Pashtun of Pakhtunkhwa otherwise even the Punjabis and Urdu speakers were at his feet. Even now this day is not far because a Pashtun, Imran Khan will win the elections.

I dont think much good about quid e azam either.Sorry sir...and lets try not to post such threads that could create tensions b/w afghans and pashtuns of pak.I am here for a purpose...and i dont have much time....the more i am trying for pashtuns to raise around the world ....the more time is running out of my hands.I ll talk to you about this in detail later on inshAllah and i respect your love for pashtuns.And leave those who think they are better than others.While tho whole world knows history.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

"secular governments had existed in the muslim world since 10th century, according to scholar, ira m. lapidus."

"in early islamic philosophy, averroes presented an argument in 'the decisive treatise', providing a justification for the emancipation of science and philosophy from official ash'ari theology. thus 'averroism' has been considered a precursor to modern secularism."

i read about this a few times in different books and internet sites but these excerpts are from 'islam and secularism'-wikipedia

That's a little different than saying Islam is compatible with secularism

[pashtun_rise]

Seriously, you need to stop trumpeting this crap.
Looking over your past posts, it seems to be a common theme.


Abdur Rahman Khan was as much your king as he was ours.
Many of the leaders of the resistance against the British were murdered by him (i.e. Mad Jan Khan). He did not have popular support among the Afghan tribes who had so vehemently opposed the British forces. As a result, to consolidate power, he had to kill those tribal leaders, displace unruly tribes and promote the traitors. In that regard, he was a very effective ruler considering what he had to work with (two super powers at the borders), and the results of that rule can be seen in the consolidation of modern Afghanistan including the conquering of Hazarajat, Herat, Kafiristan etc.

What this means is that it was not the Lar Pashtuns who 'sold the bar Pashtuns'. It was Abdur Rahman Khan & his administration. You make the Lar Pashtuns sound like cowards with your tone as part of your agenda to establish this divide among the Pashtuns on either side of the border.

It was not the will of the lar Pashtuns to sell the land of the bar Pashtuns to the British. Get that into your head. There was no elected government that ruled with the peoples' mandate. So stop insulting my ancestors by claiming that they sold thier brothers "just to save their own skin".


You said "Anyone who reads history..." when it is evident that you have not done so. Let me school you with the knowledge I have of my own peoples.

I come from the Wardag tribe. It is located in Central Afghanistan. It is a part of the Karlanri federation. Much of Sher Ali's army consisted of Wardags. Wardags spearheaded many of the operations against the British including the seige of Kabul and were a strong presence in most of the battles including Maiwand. Wardags are Lar Pashtuns. They made many sacrafices against the British and supported kings like Ayub Khan who fought against the invaders. Hence, when the British installed a loyal puppet in order to leave the Afghan quagmire, there was no love lost between your average Wardag and the aforementioned puppet. Especially when the Wardag tribal chiefs (who had popular support among Pashtuns...even the Bar Pashtuns....i.e. Ghazi Shaheed General Mohammad Jan Khan Wardag who was the first person in history to be elected as general or 'ghatmushr' by the rank & file of the army) who were instrumental in the defence against the British were assassinated by him. When the treaty to officially partition Afghanistan was signed, the Wardags did not support it. Average Wardags, just like other average Lar Pukhtuns & Bar Pukhtuns were not consulted.

Abdur Rahmand Khan was not called the 'Iron Amir' for nothing. He quelled the rebellions throughout the country and effectively silenced the opposition (most of whom were involved in the fight against the British) while consolidating his own rule.

Bar Pashtuns are not cattle to be bought and sold. They are a proud warrior peoples, just like their Lar counterparts. You, in your posts, make them seem vulnerable and helpess when infact they were in the same position (in terms of their opposition to the treaties and the new ruler) as their Lar brothers.



I am not even a nationalist - I couldn't care less whether you love pakistan or hate it. That's your business and it does not concern me at all. What does concern me is when you (who no-one can be sure is even a Pashtun) would dare to insult my ancestors as being cowards 'selling Bar Pashtuns just to save their own skin' and calling them the 'real slaves of the British' when they fought so strongly against the British and opposed Abdur Rahman Khan.


You intellectual dishonesty is undignified & unbecoming.





It would be extremely ignorant of you to hate 'afghanis' because your leaders did zulm on your people. Yes, I said "your leaders" because they were your leaders. Just as they were ours. It was not ordinary Lar Pashtuns who oppressed your people. They fought against the invaders just as hard, if not moreso as the Bar Pashtuns and they did not consent to the division of their land and their seperation from their brothers.

First of all i agree that its not a good thread.

My leaders fought as much as possible....till the treaty was signed by none other than your beloved AHMAD SHAH DURRANI.Ahmad shah durrani was a man of greed to take control of all other tribes.He wanted the glory of his tribe only....by declaring many lands under his tribe.The great KHAN/MALIK he was....may be a hero for you guys not for us.Even upto this we karlanis are fighting in courts for our lands which they occupied only officially while infact they were our lands.And yeah...the treaty was signed by him...dont forget that.He can never be my hero.Later on...the durand line was accepted in 1919,1921 ...by afghan govt.Where was their love of pashtuns then? Why claiming now when pashtuns of pak gained more facilities of education etc...? Isnt this hypocricy? I still love those pashtuns more (both lar n bar) who try their best to educate their people....even if they have to migrate.Yes i respect them...i respect those tribes who didnt oppressed others and kept in peace with each other...like karlani tribes...to a certain extent,yousafzai etc..

I dont deny the truth that wardag tribes fought against british....yes i accept that.But when did i say i like british govt or paki govt?

I never said that bar pashtuns were coward...all i said that they didnt help at times of crisis when real time was there to fight for foreign intervention.Where was their so called love for pashtuns then? Or is it that durrani dynasty was too much powerful to divide their power to other tribes .Better you get this into mind...pashtun tribes were autonomous too..those tribes of that time never liked the oppression of durrani tribe as well.Try to ask your grandparents about that.


Regarding your view of consultation...yes thats also true...many tribes were not taken into consideration regarding consultation of so called division or shifting loyalities.That i also accept that whoever did that were a shame to us...



Now if you question my love for pashtun people or me being a pashtun...i damn care.I am not here to ridicule the past or question their loyality...but i am surely here to make pashtuns in general understand that they need to understand their enemies and stay away from so called afflictions of dajjal...which they are misunderstood as friends.(Some pashtuns think that).

[pashtun_rise]

Here is a source since you guys may not believe what a pashtun would say...you ppl doubt me being a pshtun...but a day ll come when you guys ll realise...

http://www.tribalanalysiscenter.com/PDF-TAC/Pashtun%20Tribal%20Dynamics.pdf

[pashtun_rise]

I never claimed that. ^^

But your point was correct.

These guys seem to be as obsessed with India as their ISI-masters.

Unbelievably dumb.

I don´t understand why one would take Nek Mohammads pic.....a guy who sipped tea with Pakistani generals on a daily basis.

Pashtunforums is being overrun by Madrassa-educated would-be suicide bombers.

Do you have any proof PF is overrun by madrassa educated would be suicide bomber? I think its the shadow governer who stands for such title....with barakzai covering for him.Does that make him a bomber too? Although i believe i like the way he adds logics....Dont give childish comments and point fingers to any1 you cant defeat by logic and shout "Hey there are suicide bombers...there are suicide bombers ".

[faye]

That's a little different than saying Islam is compatible with secularism

averroes was saying it is compatible, is he not?

[pashtun_rise]

yet you want to promote the devision of these muslims for the sake of a country which was built on seculerism and all types of kufur for MUSLIMS.
you can fool yourself but not anyone else.

and what is with all this Afghanis afghanis? they have messed your brain up.
btw what ehsan have they done to Pashtuns?dont you even dare to say that jinah(a british agent) did ehsan on pashtuns who were on their own lands and were much less morally corrupt than now.

dont even talk about pakistan helping us afghans.
we were on our own soil and were welcomed by our brethern.
most of Afghans have started businesses ,pekhawer economy was largely thanks to these who you call muhajirs.
the first help was done by UN to Afghan refugees or their families sent money from abroad to sustain them.

Pakistani state did get rich off Afghan refugees by getting UN money.

PAKISTAN DIDNT HELP AFGHANS THEY JUST HELPED THEMSELVES.

forget this revolutionthroughstupidity.

lar aw bar unity doesnt mean we are against pakistanis.

So now you are praising NATO for helping you....? Man! i dont ignore the facts that they might have helped you...but they were the ones alongwith pak govt to create mess in afghanistan too...Pak govt has its reaction against the so called bomb attack in 1980's by insurgents CREATED by russians in afghanistan (WAD and KHAD intelligent agencies of afghanistan in coalition with russian KGB).The insuregents were few...but they did got reaction later on in the form of pak's interference...What has your people done to pashtuns? Lets not try to point fingers on pashtuns....try to look for future....and come out of this racism thing...it ll leave you of nowhere.There is a difference b/w ethnic pride and racism...i consider you as a brother ...so do all pashtuns...think!