22 dead in Kabul hotel attack

[RevolutionThroughReason]

bahahaha ...UnknownPrince's attempt at trying to use back handed racism and ethnic division to excuse the Taliban's murders backfired.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Sometimes murder is justified.

.

Only when Taliban are bombed into pieces.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

This is a predominantly non-Pashtun area.

what is there is to be suprised about in regards to pimping and prostitutes in Kabul. Northern Alliance runs brothels in Kabul and the North and even pimp their daughters and mothers.

This has been happening in the North for a long time. In Kabul, there was an outcry back in 2006, when prostitution was so open.

what an ethnic bigot you are; there are PASHTUNS in the Northern Alliance and Tajiks in the Taliban.

you know nothing about Afghanistan as a Pakistani National.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Everyone is getting emotional. I think we need to discuss this thing calmly and cooly and analytically. A few things we can discuss:

1) The news in the states is reporting this thing as Spozhmai Kabul is some out of the way love nest of happy people on the shore of the lake. If so, why did the Taliban (who took credit for the attack) choose this place out of the myriad of hotels? Zabiullah Mujahid's statement appears to indicate that they were alerted to the presence of foreigners and indecent activities. WHO alerted them? I think this is a fascinating question. If hotel staff are your simple run of the mill folks and Western style interaction is going on the locals themselves may very well have told someone who told someone else who got word back to the Taliban.

2) If the typical statement that "The ISI" picked the location, the same question comes up. Why? Who was there that the ISI or associated groups, Laskhar etc, did not like? Once again, out of the myriad of places, why this one? I dont accept the fact that these are Joker (Batman villian) style nihilists that simply want to wreak havoc.

3) What does it accomplish for the attackers?
- ISAF has been positing that this proves the insurgents are limited to attacking outside certain effectively safe areas of Kabul. Based on this, I think its an attempt to spin against the escalating spin that no amount of ANSF training, no local militia arming, no camera and drone technology has been able or capable enough, no imbeds have been informative enough to deal with an enemy that can strike at will. If a concentration of troops is left inside Kabul's parameter, the message seems to be: so what? this country is the size of Texas and your current troop levels are insufficient and your ANSF forces are easy to lure to our side or able to be double agents.

4) The reactions in the country side and in the streets of Kabul... what are they beyond the ISAF trumpeted media reports, i.e what does the Afghan in the mosque or on the street think?

I think that a good reference point is this article:
http://www.kabulguide.net/kbl-isafpatrol.htm

The Kabul survival guide discusses a club that was set up in Kabul called the Irish Club; a place where expats and foreigners can imbibe fermented drinks of various alcoholic nature. I few key quotes from the articles show some of the things going on there:
"Fazel Ahmed Manawi, the deputy supreme court justice, said
Muslims found drinking at the Irish Club will be punished.
"We've got a lot of foreigners living in our country and unfortunately, this is a necessary thing for them," Manawi says. "But this bar should remain a place only for foreigners."
There are Afghan staff of course, but they've all been given Irish names - Kevin, Jimmy, Michael, George - "to protect them from possible retaliation."
Most of the staff, too, are keen on keeping a low profile.
"Our families know what we do, but we tell other people we just work in a restaurant or a guesthouse selling food and soft drinks," says 22-year-old "Paddy.""


Remember, Afghans are smart, capable, adaptable people who have seen 30+ years of war. They know that rules of engagement, Geneva conventions, and ideological stances dont affect the laws of physics and projectiles. So the question remains, if the locals viewed this organization this way, I dont think its such an open and shut case that they view this incident as a rogue organizations attack on civilian life. Rather, someone like Manawi and "Paddy's" neighbors may see things a bit differently and disconnectedly, proving the point that word of mouth got information back to Zabiullah and his "gang."

Just my two cents

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Who ever planned this attack, even if there were no unarmed people killed, this incident is a major publicity disaster for Taliban.

[Shah-i-Kot]

what an ethnic bigot you are; there are PASHTUNS in the Northern Alliance and Tajiks in the Taliban.

you know nothing about Afghanistan as a Pakistani National.

Which Pashtun in Northern Alliance? You?

:P

[Admin Khan]

Which Pashtun in Northern Alliance? You?

:P

Northern Alliance had a lot of Pashtuns, in the thousands. Anybody who did not know this is naive and ignorant.

Anyways, can you and RTR not spam this thread please. Stay on topic.

[faye]

"Fazel Ahmed Manawi, the deputy supreme court justice, said
Muslims found drinking at the Irish Club will be punished.
"We've got a lot of foreigners living in our country and unfortunately, this is a necessary thing for them," Manawi says. "But this bar should remain a place only for foreigners."
There are Afghan staff of course, but they've all been given Irish names - Kevin, Jimmy, Michael, George - "to protect them from possible retaliation."
Most of the staff, too, are keen on keeping a low profile.
"Our families know what we do, but we tell other people we just work in a restaurant or a guesthouse selling food and soft drinks," says 22-year-old "Paddy.""

so, barakzai, is this what you call a justifiable reason for the attack at the hotel?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Who ever planned this attack, even if there were no unarmed people killed, this incident is a major publicity disaster for Taliban.

Its a good point, but its an interesting world. The Syrian rebel groups for instance have had their own back and forth vollys but since its become Susan Rice's pet project the NATO aligned media and even Amnesty International dont mind echoing their causes.

The fascinating thing about Afghanistan as a case study is just how different it is versus even the neighboring KP former NWFP province.

In the Afghan hinterland, radio waves still dominate as a mode of communication. In the KP areas every home is reputed to have a TV. I've met KP Pashtuns who were so confused politically because of what the Pakistani media had been doing with the airwaves that they somehow simulataneously supported Benazir Bhutto as a Shaheed and called Musharraf the country savior. Thats sort of like saying that you love G Bush the first and Clinton and are from the deep south... its nonsensical.

The Afghan on the other hand is by his nature a very smart, astute, and as a survival instinct, paranoid (I dont mean on the country level like the Pakistanis are) about folks with ideological messages. So it was only recently when the intelligence community started to coopt the radio waves because they figured out that their airwave delivered commercials were not having the impact they wanted. Whereas the Pashtun from the outskirts of Peshawar may say that Bhutto is Shaheed and Musharraf is the country savior, the Afghan Pashtun is outright and very properly paranoid about anyone claiming to be his leader.

So I dont think that its as much a PR disaster within the country itself for the reasons in my prior post and based on these differences of how propaganda can be spread. In the world's view, of course this would be seen as a PR problem for the group, but on the other hand they were already international pariahs and did not have much to lose except to gain folk's confidence that they will continue to strike at their choosing.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Kabul is pashtun majority. Only in the last 10 years over 2 million people moved into Khair Khana, Taimani and some other parts of the city from Shamali.

But Kabul province is Pashtun majority province. Qargha is surrounded by Pashtun villages, Paghman, Shewaki, Khak Jabbar, But Khak, Bagrami, Shakar Dara, Deh Sabz, Surubi and the rest of Kabul is predominantly Pashtun.

Only the innercity is predominantly Tajik/Hazara.

I do not have much knowledge of Kabul demographics outside of book knowledge, but I have always understood the city to be mostly Tajik/Uzbek/Hazara.

[Admin Khan]

This still begs the question,
Why attack a hotel(for which there is no evidence thus far of prostitutes, it's the equivalent of "Where are the WMDs and terrorists")when there are prostitution hubs(one of the largest in Asia)right behind a famous mosque. Clearly, there is evidence for that hub yet it's thriving and contributing to the underground GDP. This move makes no rational, dare I say logical sense. If corruption, and prostitution is the problem, you don't start off with a place for which no concrete evidence is available in the first place. Especially when an array of brothels are just a few blocks away.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

so, barakzai, is this what you call a justibiable reason for the attack at the hotel?

No. Read the rest of what I posted. When I speak here its not a justification or an incentivization or anything of the sort. If you look at my commentary, even on the Bale incident, at most I sent my condolences to Alikozais, but did not really criticize Bale or go on the warpath. Im trying to point out what people may think what that snippet from the article. From an Islamic standpoint, it may very well be condemnable or it may not; Im not a scholar and will leave that to the scholars to discuss.

Basically, Im trying to get into the heads of the folks there based on more balanced media reporting. The caveat may be that I am 100% wrong and that every person in Afghanistan feels as Susan Rice does.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Its a good point, but its an interesting world. The Syrian rebel groups for instance have had their own back and forth vollys but since its become Susan Rice's pet project the NATO aligned media and even Amnesty International dont mind echoing their causes.

The fascinating thing about Afghanistan as a case study is just how different it is versus even the neighboring KP former NWFP province.

In the Afghan hinterland, radio waves still dominate as a mode of communication. In the KP areas every home is reputed to have a TV. I've met KP Pashtuns who were so confused politically because of what the Pakistani media had been doing with the airwaves that they somehow simulataneously supported Benazir Bhutto as a Shaheed and called Musharraf the country savior. Thats sort of like saying that you love G Bush the first and Clinton and are from the deep south... its nonsensical.

The Afghan on the other hand is by his nature a very smart, astute, and as a survival instinct, paranoid (I dont mean on the country level like the Pakistanis are) about folks with ideological messages. So it was only recently when the intelligence community started to coopt the radio waves because they figured out that their airwave delivered commercials were not having the impact they wanted. Whereas the Pashtun from the outskirts of Peshawar may say that Bhutto is Shaheed and Musharraf is the country savior, the Afghan Pashtun is outright and very properly paranoid about anyone claiming to be his leader.

So I dont think that its as much a PR disaster within the country itself for the reasons in my prior post and based on these differences of how propaganda can be spread. In the world's view, of course this would be seen as a PR problem for the group, but on the other hand they were already international pariahs and did not have much to lose except to gain folk's confidence that they will continue to strike at their choosing.

The shallow understanding of politics and excessive reliance on media in developing countries creates a new breed of extremely stupid masses who eventually become nihilists because they don't know what to believe so they choose to believe in nothing. Many Kabulis I know are unfortunately like this.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Northern Alliance had a lot of Pashtuns, in the thousands. Anybody who did not know this is naive and ignorant.

Anyways, can you and RTR not spam this thread please. Stay on topic.

A lot of Pashtuns? Which ones? Hamid Karzai?

[Admin Khan]

Do some research, specifically in the South. Again, this isn't the thread for this discussion. Kindly start a new one, or keep your thought for some other day. For the 2nd time, N/A had thousands of Pashtuns who were loyal, and situated in the South. Even Kandahar had a minor brigade, of spera Pashtana serving Masood interests I can even go as far as naming the commander, and his district that had thousands of Pashtuns under his control, yet he served Masood's interests. Let's not kid ourselves -- some Pashtuns will sell their souls for the smell of a dollar.