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  • Hamid Karzai is not an idiot

    THE much-underrated and maligned Hamid Karzai is after all not such a dunce. On May 1, the Afghan president pulled off a major diplomatic deal to give Afghanistan an edge it had never enjoyed over Pakistan. Nominated at Bonn more than a decade ago as Afghan chief and ‘elected’ twice in ballot exercises of doubtful validity, Mr Karzai must now be scoffing at Pakistan to his heart’s delight.

    The 10-year Strategic Partnership Agreement (SPA), signed by President Barack Obama and Mr Karzai a day before the first anniversary of the SEALs’ Abbottabad raid, has brought about a radical shift in the regional balance of power, with Afghanistan emerging in a stronger position vis-à-vis Pakistan in terms of security guarantees from America.

    Because Islamabad failed to satisfy the US that it was acting in a way commensurate with Pakistan’s status as a ‘major non-Nato’ ally, Washington has had the pleasure of twisting Islamabad’s arm by deciding to give the same status now to Afghanistan. As the SPA’s sub-clause 3 of article III says, America will designate Afghanistan a major non-Nato ally to “help provide a long-term framework for mutual security and defence cooperation”. In short, while Pakistan is no more America’s ally, Afghanistan is. The agreement expires in 2024, a long time, and has enviable room for Mr Karzai’s friends in New Delhi.

    Another clause — 9 of article III — has immense and frightful implications for Pakistan: it recognises that Afghanistan’s stability contributes to the development and stability of South-Central Asia, and therefore the United States affirms that “it shall regard with grave concern any external aggression against Afghanistan. Were this to occur”, America and Afghanistan will “hold consultations on an urgent basis” to develop “an appropriate response, including … political, diplomatic, economic, or military measures …”

    Who is suspected of having committed or who may commit “external aggression” against Afghanistan? Most certainly no other neighbour save the one on the east of the Durand Line. The agreement by implications is Pakistan-specific, and to expect any Kabul government not to use this agreement to its maximum advantage against Pakistan is to be naïve. Pakistan’s newly developed foreign policy mechanism is ponderous — ponderous not because it is inherently so, but because it is new, untested and is in the process of evolution. The parliamentary committee’s recommendations and its adoption by parliament took five months. In these five crucial months we stood motionless while Mr Karzai had the common sense to move with speed. While he clinched a deal with the superpower, we continued to lament Salala and expected the world to shed tears with us. Nobody bothered to.

    The gravity of a crisis that perpetuated itself in various forms — Raymond Davis, Abbottabad and Salala — had required a quick response acceptable to both Pakistan and the US. Instead, if there was any activity that was visible, it was the ‘religious’ mobocracy whose howls and shrieks occupied centre stage. The brains behind this street demagogy did not realise that at stake was the future of Pakistan’s relations not just with the superpower but with 49 other nations, including EU countries, Canada, Australia, Japan and many others.

    Pakistan’s non-Nato ally status had a potential — but a potential which Islamabad never had the wisdom to exploit. Mr Karzai exploited our stupidity with remarkable success and may now adopt a stance much tougher than he ever has towards Pakistan.

    All said and done, Mr Karzai is not an idiot.

    Source: Hamid Karzai is not an idiot | DAWN.COM

  • #2
    I agree there is no honour in being a puppet and non elected leader.
    But this article is written by a Pakistani author who seems to be worried about the situation. Pakistani authorities have always asked for help from kafirs, including USA and now they are the lapdogs of China which is a mojority atheist secular country unlike USA which at least is christian. Its OK for the government of Pakistan to side with kuffars but not Afghanistan?
    The world is not black and white, muslim and kuffar. Its much more complicated.
    The deal specifically mentions that Pakistan or neighbouring countries will not be attacked from Afghan soil, so why are pakistan and Iran so worried about this deal?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by shadowgoverner
      offcourse he is.

      thats like saying he is not an idiot for getting a good deal for selling his wife.
      so pakistan is not more american dog now its time for Afg,wow what an honour.
      Pakistan will always remain a parrot, until a revolution takes place. Which I assume is forthcoming given how fed up the civilians are. Remember, it was an American who said if the price is right, a Pakistani will even sell his mother.This was said back when they were "allies".

      Both Pakistan and Afghanistan need to realize that they will have to live in the region for thousands of years with each other.
      Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

      A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

      For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


      The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

      -Ferishta, 1560–1620

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by shadowgoverner
        you are right
        no doubt pakistan has been a lap dog of the british imperialists and were handed over to american imperialists and that is actually what pakistan is about.
        Afghanistan on the other hand has fought and defeated the british imperialists and gained their independence so its two very different cases.
        the thing is 100s of 1000s of Afghans have been massacred by these people so "getting help from them" is like asking a rapist to look over your household.
        the deal has nothing really to do with neighbors but having a foothold in this strategic location for military and economic reasons.
        it is there just like how they are in saudi for natural resources and the protection of their plunder operations.
        they want to ensure they are the owners of Afghan natural resources.
        their stay in Afghanistan will only cause more problems and taliban will continue with the excuse that angreezan pe afghanistan ke dey.

        so it is not about democracy,human rights,defending against neighbors,or helping Afghanistan prosper.
        it is about securing the natural resources for multinational companies,training of their soldiers with alive targets,testing weapons,dumping nuclear waste,etc etc.

        Afghanistan will be much prosperous and safe if we are independent again.
        Salamuna wrora,
        How can you assure me that Afghanistan will free from interference from Iran and Pakistan? Say this agreement does not exist, wouldn't Pakistan begin it's dirty tactics again? We have the global hub of terrorism right next to us, you do realize that right? Again, just a question. This doesn't mean I support or condone the agreement.
        Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

        A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

        For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


        The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

        -Ferishta, 1560–1620

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shadowgoverner
          you are right
          no doubt pakistan has been a lap dog of the british imperialists and were handed over to american imperialists and that is actually what pakistan is about.
          Afghanistan on the other hand has fought and defeated the british imperialists and gained their independence so its two very different cases.
          the thing is 100s of 1000s of Afghans have been massacred by these people so "getting help from them" is like asking a rapist to look over your household.
          the deal has nothing really to do with neighbors but having a foothold in this strategic location for military and economic reasons.
          it is there just like how they are in saudi for natural resources and the protection of their plunder operations.
          they want to ensure they are the owners of Afghan natural resources.
          their stay in Afghanistan will only cause more problems and taliban will continue with the excuse that angreezan pe afghanistan ke dey.

          so it is not about democracy,human rights,defending against neighbors,or helping Afghanistan prosper.
          it is about securing the natural resources for multinational companies,training of their soldiers with alive targets,testing weapons,dumping nuclear waste,etc etc.

          Afghanistan will be much prosperous and safe if we are independent again.
          There is no doubt USA/NATO is there for their own interests such as you mentioned. Why would they fly over all they way from half way around the world to help Afghans? Ofcourse fighting Alkeeda is just an excuse to stay there.

          Unforunately due to Taliban's mistakes, oppurtunistic thugs (warlords,druglords) , the disunity of Afghans and the cowardicde of our neighbours, we are stuck in this situation. Due to these factors and the general exhaustion from constant wars, the struggle will not be successfull against NATO/USA.

          Comment


          • #6
            LOL who is trying to defend karazai? lagh sharam walari khalqo.

            one of the thing you should know about him....he is a professional actor.lol

            a mother ****er puppet.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shadowgoverner
              but the interference of Iran and Pakistan has become ten times more from the time of this occupation.
              as we see iran has almost full control over Afghan foreign policies towards iran and also have infiltrated the parliament.

              I think the best way forward is to reconcile with waring factions and include in the security forces,that way they wont be used(if they are used)by neighboring countries or others.
              i think Islamic institutions should be built in Afghanistan to the magnitude of al azhar where these people can continue their Islamic teachings instead of going abroad to places like pakistan or elsewhere.

              If the agreement was not based on occupation,lets say they left and did an economic agreement ,that would be a great thing but having military in the country only adds oil to the fire.
              you do know Afghans emotions when it comes to ocupation of their country.
              like the saying goes : by love you can take them to hell with you , by force you cant even take them to heaven with you.
              I know what your saying graana, what do you think of the argument that says US troops will serve as a deterrence for regional bullies, and they will train the Afghan armed forces? For instance, Pakistan will think 10x before it does something silly to Afghanistan, same goes for Iran. Also, the fact that they are funding the Afghan military forces, and supplying them with modern equipment.
              Even Adobe Photoshop can't change me.

              A line[Durrand line] of hatred that raised a wall between the two brothers -Hamid Karzai

              For generations, the Hindus of India prayed for deliverance from "the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger and the vengeance of the Afghan."


              The men of Kábul and Khilj also went home; and whenever they were questioned about the Musulmáns of the Kohistán (the mountains), and how matters stood there, they said, "Don't call it Kohistán, but Afghánistán; for there is nothing there but Afgháns and disturbances." Thus it is clear that for this reason the people of the country call their home in their own language Afghánistán, and themselves Afgháns. The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows!

              -Ferishta, 1560–1620

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by badmash_khel View Post
                There is no doubt USA/NATO is there for their own interests such as you mentioned. Why would they fly over all they way from half way around the world to help Afghans? Ofcourse fighting Alkeeda is just an excuse to stay there.

                Unforunately due to Taliban's mistakes, oppurtunistic thugs (warlords,druglords) , the disunity of Afghans and the cowardicde of our neighbours, we are stuck in this situation. Due to these factors and the general exhaustion from constant wars, the struggle will not be successfull against NATO/USA.
                First of all, NATO are already withdrawing for one thing. Trying to maintain some limited presence and have the unreliable ANA fight for them is both unrealistic and out of question- its not going to happen.

                Secondly, the whole pact rests on having Pakistani supply lines to NATO/Karzai open and not closed.

                As of now, the ground supply lines are closed. They have threatened Pakistan, and put all the pressure, diplomatically, and also with economic sanctions. In any case, the religious center has truly become a powerful force within Pakistan and they will not let the supply lines be opened- they have made it clear to all levels of government.


                Imran Khan enters the picture, and he has made it clear that he will end all Pakistan support for this war and Karzai regime.

                Imran is the most popular politician in Pakistan.

                This is why they are opposing him already before he even wins.


                Afghans and the region will have their way - its their neighborhood- and an Afghanistan which is not occupied is the only way towards peace.


                The thing for this is that Karzai has no future in Afghanistan. He has made it clear that he is not interested in peace or his claims of reconciliation. He is only interested in filling his pockets with siphoned money.


                Hence, he is a Shuja of our times.

                American commitment doesnt mean a thing, especially if it rests on a unpredictable Pakistani regime. Imran takes over, its over.
                Last edited by Shah-i-Kot; 05-12-2012, 04:23 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by lynx View Post
                  First of all they are already withdrawing for one thing. Trying to maintain some limited presence and have their puppet ANA fight for them is both unrealistic and out of question- its not going to happen.

                  Secondly, their whole pact rests on having Pakistani supply lines to NATO/Karzai open and not closed.

                  As of now, the ground supply lines are closed. They have threatened Pakistan, and put all the pressue. In any case, the religious center has truly become a powerful force within Pakistan and they will not let the supply lines be opened- they have made it clear to all levels of government.


                  Imran Khan enters the picture, and he has made it also perfectly clear that he will end all Pakistan support for this coward war and puppet regime of Karzai. Imran is the most popular politician in Pakistan. He will have his way, and it will be immediate.

                  This is why they are opposing him already before he even wins.


                  Afghans and the region will have their way - its their neighborhood.


                  This pact is a meaningless piece of tissue paper.

                  The fortunate thing for this is that Karzai has no future in Afghanistan. He has made it clear that he is not interested in peace.


                  Hence, he is a Shuja of our times.

                  American commitment doesnt mean a thing, especially if it rests on a unpredictable Pakistani regime. Imran takes over, its over.
                  Their presence is likely to be 20000 to 40000 troops with air support and heavy weaponry. Thats not a minor presence. Taliban will not be able to fight a pitched conventional battle against them. So its more than enough. The will only leave their elite units and all those teenagers will be sent back home so the quality will increase not decrease.

                  The supply lines are just one of the few cards Pakistan holds against USA/NATO. With enough money and pressure they will open the supply line as well. Don't be surprised. Pakistani elites are easily bought and sold. Just look what they did to their favourite Taliban once the USA started tightening the screws. Basically you think Imran Khan will be some kind of messiah who will defy USA and the elites which is clearly not possible in Pakistan. The army generals, feaudalistic landlords hold the real power in Pakistan. The civillian government is incompetent and useless and the whole democracy is a sham to keep the populace deluded. It doesn't matter what Imran Khan wants or promises, The only thing which counts is what the elites want. The real people who hold the power.

                  USA is also working with Russia to open supply routes through Uzbekistan, and on this issue both Russia and USA are united. Russia also doesn't want Taliban in their zone of influence (uzbekistan, Tajikistan). So they will let the Americans use that northern route. Thus Pakistan will lose the only card they hold and pakistanis can do nothing about the drone attacks.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In regards to the drones, the current Pakistan establishment has been cooperating with the drone attacks, and permits it.

                    However, again with a change in leadership, I think things will change.



                    He will want to win his next election after this too.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by badmash_khel View Post
                      Their presence is likely to be 20000 to 40000 troops with air support and heavy weaponry. Thats not a minor presence. Taliban will not be able to fight a pitched conventional battle against them. So its more than enough. The will only leave their elite units and all those teenagers will be sent back home so the quality will increase not decrease.

                      The supply lines are just one of the few cards Pakistan holds against USA/NATO. With enough money and pressure they will open the supply line as well. Don't be surprised. Pakistani elites are easily bought and sold. Just look what they did to their favourite Taliban once the USA started tightening the screws. Basically you think Imran Khan will be some kind of messiah who will defy USA and the elites which is clearly not possible in Pakistan. The army generals, feaudalistic landlords hold the real power in Pakistan. The civillian government is incompetent and useless and the whole democracy is a sham to keep the populace deluded. It doesn't matter what Imran Khan wants or promises, The only thing which counts is what the elites want. The real people who hold the power.

                      USA is also working with Russia to open supply routes through Uzbekistan, and on this issue both Russia and USA are united. Russia also doesn't want Taliban in their zone of influence (uzbekistan, Tajikistan). So they will let the Americans use that northern route. Thus Pakistan will lose the only card they hold and pakistanis can do nothing about the drone attacks.
                      Only non-lethal supplies are allowed through Uzbekistan and Russia, (Northern Distribution Network).

                      Pakistan is the only country that allows lethal supplies. Currently, the air supply routes are open, but that will end in the event of an Imran victory.


                      Hence, the whole Obama-Karzai pact rests on a subservient leadership in Pakistan.

                      The Karzai regime is banking on a dead hope that Imran Khan is their Musharraf for them, giving them supply routes and such to carry on their war and regime. This goes against everything he has said. You can bank on the calculation that he will want to win a second term, therefore like Francois Hollande, he will make good on his pledge to end Pakistan's support for the NATO war/.Karzai regime which is critical- without it the war will come to end.

                      Imran made a point not to meet Karzai when the puppet was prancing around Islamabad requesting that the NATO supply lines are reopened.

                      What a foolish hope. I would put more confidence in the words that have been repeated for the past 7 years in which Imran has said that Pakistan should stop supporting the NATO war, make peace in FATA, and end drone attacks instead of the wishes and whims of an illegal and corrupt Karzai regime propped up by a increasingly frustrated NATO occupation (that depends on Pakistan for their flimsy strategy to succeed)

                      At this moment, the booogie man Imran Khan is the most popular and powerful politician in Pakistan( polls). He will get his way whether people like it or not. The NATO war will end without Pakistani supply lines, and the Karzai regime will be history
                      Last edited by Shah-i-Kot; 05-12-2012, 02:05 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ^
                        OK, then Let's wait and see what Imran Khan can do.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Admin Khan View Post
                          I know what your saying graana, what do you think of the argument that says US troops will serve as a deterrence for regional bullies, and they will train the Afghan armed forces? For instance, Pakistan will think 10x before it does something silly to Afghanistan, same goes for Iran. Also, the fact that they are funding the Afghan military forces, and supplying them with modern equipment.

                          Pakistan is the only country that supplies NATO/ANA with lethal supplies. Russia and Uzbekistan (the Northern Distribution) only permit non-lethal supplies.

                          Previously, and for the last decade, this has happened by air and ground from Pakistan. It is the only way that the NATO war carries on, as well as the Karzai regime. Currently, only the ground supply lines are closed.

                          The bullets that were responsible for the Panjwai murders came from Pakistani air supply routes.


                          After taking the aforementioned facts into consideration, dont you consider this to be how Pakistan has been interfering in the internal affairs of Afghanistan, or do you ascribe to another interpretation? In that case, please elaborate.

                          Isn't Pakistan supply routes to NATO considered interference or not? Again, the Pakistani supply routes are the only method in which NATO is getting lethal supplies.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by shadowgoverner
                            you are right
                            no doubt pakistan has been a lap dog of the british imperialists and were handed over to american imperialists and that is actually what pakistan is about.
                            Afghanistan on the other hand has fought and defeated the british imperialists and gained their independence so its two very different cases.
                            the thing is 100s of 1000s of Afghans have been massacred by these people so "getting help from them" is like asking a rapist to look over your household.
                            the deal has nothing really to do with neighbors but having a foothold in this strategic location for military and economic reasons.
                            it is there just like how they are in saudi for natural resources and the protection of their plunder operations.
                            they want to ensure they are the owners of Afghan natural resources.
                            their stay in Afghanistan will only cause more problems and taliban will continue with the excuse that angreezan pe afghanistan ke dey.

                            so it is not about democracy,human rights,defending against neighbors,or helping Afghanistan prosper.
                            it is about securing the natural resources for multinational companies,training of their soldiers with alive targets,testing weapons,dumping nuclear waste,etc etc.

                            Afghanistan will be much prosperous and safe if we are independent again.
                            Please... don´t blame Pakistan. Just look into a mirror and understand yourself. The real lapdog are you who lick the shoes of Pakistan.. have you studied your history? From the days of Mughals to day, you serve many people, be it Iran, Pakistan, US, Britain ... you are their tools and here you call Pakistan a lapdog of US? Pakistan just know how to run politics to milk US ... but in your case, US is ''milking' you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and 365 days a year. Three out of 5 fingers still point on yourself!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NokiaWnW View Post
                              Please... don´t blame Pakistan. Just look into a mirror and understand yourself. The real lapdog are you who lick the shoes of Pakistan.. have you studied your history? From the days of Mughals to day, you serve many people, be it Iran, Pakistan, US, Britain ... you are their tools and here you call Pakistan a lapdog of US? Pakistan just know how to run politics to milk US ... but in your case, US is ''milking' you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and 365 days a year. Three out of 5 fingers still point on yourself!

                              except that pashtuns have fought pakistan, iran, the british, the americans and the mughals.
                              There are people today who think that admitting God’s absolute greatness decreases the value and importance of humans in the creation, as if God and mankind are rivals competing in greatness and power. Meanwhile I feel that whenever our perception of God’s greatness increases, with it we become greater, because we are the creation of a great God.

                              Sayyid Qutb

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