Evidence Basis in Political Discussion

[faye]

i wasn't aiming that at you barakzai, although i personally don't believe everything that scheuer says. i am a bit suss on his intent.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

the need for evidence on pf, is subject specific.
if the story makes westerners look bad, no evidence is called for. if the story makes the taliban look bad it is always claimed to be propaganda. quite amusing really.
even the words of hazaras who were attacked, had family and tribe members murdered by taliban, are not valid evidence on pf.

that's exactly how it is ...I asked Barakzai simply to answer an honest question regarding the fidelity of Pape and other's research and suddenly it's "emotionally loaded"

[BarakzaiAbdali]

i wasn't aiming that at you barakzai, although i personally don't believe everything that scheuer says. i am a bit suss on his intent.

Thanks. My apologies Madam

[BarakzaiAbdali]

that's exactly how it is ...I asked Barakzai simply to answer an honest question regarding the fidelity of Pape and other's research and suddenly it's "emotionally loaded"

Oh I didnt get the question... now I get it. It appears to be center around whether Pape's work is reliable in the context of civilian deaths???

I thought you were asking me to comment on civilian deaths.
To answer, I dont think Pape addressed the suicide events and civilian casualty rates. His studies deal with the the variables being ISAF presence and suicide bombing rates going up concordantly.

That is much more logical to me than yoru theory of random guys like the guy in the video trying to find some random place to target just so the US would come there. Thats like saying... the person decided to get fat so they ate lots of potato chips... its one theory but its the most bereft of logic... Soldatian is the best term for such a theory.

So Yes, I think Scheuer and Pape have far greater fidelity in their work than the groups you cite.

[faye]

there wouldn't be any reliable numbers for civilians deaths, i believe. they would not follow up on the wounded, who end up dieing, for starters.
450 u.s. bases in afghanistan? who can be keeping tabs on all that mob?
eventually we may know.

[Admin Khan]

A discussion of Afghan governmental setbacks are seen as "cherry picking" despite the clear evidence of both widespread and centralized abuse. Instead of folks seeing such criticisms as ways to improve governance, its called deflating moral and the time honored canard of supporting Pakistan is leveled.

I haven't seen much Afghan government supporters, why do you think this is a problem Doctor sahab?

I once posted an article, that stated when several Pukhtuns asked the MOHE for scholarships to Turkey, a MOHE official responded and said "Go ask Mullah Omar for a scholarship". Ouch, that has to hurt. The aforementioned is just one example of how corrupt the Afghan government is. Anybody who denies this needs to get their head examined. That's the exact reason why I constantly laugh and chew Pakistani supporters out. There is nothing to "support" in a Banana republic.

[faye]

^^see. this is where 'evidence based' demands get sticky.
where is the proof that these words were spoken by the MOHE official? i am not saying that it did not occur but see how one is ready to believe something that we want, because it backs our beliefs.
we all do it.

[tor_khan]

Scimitar you are turning a logical argument into an emotional one which I wouldnt expect from you.

If you are asking about my opinion on that concept and action, as I noted in our discussion or at least attempted to convey: I am definitively against it and abhor such strategies.

However, that doesnt mean that I dont understand the logic behind why it is used and why they in particular do it.

Merely because I wont accept the emotional blackmail that folks use here which is: Taliban are like orcs and Karzai is like Frodo... evil evil evil. One has to view these parties as nameless players on the chessboard and then assess their strategies.

Like Professor Barkawi:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...424785830.html

I think things happen for a reason.

I view this phenomena as a bad response to a bad instigator.

Its no different than me saying that I understand Netanyahu. Whatever my opinion of the man, his behavior and strategies are sensical and predictable based on what one reads of his worldview.

By the same token, I undestand that his actions are the stimulus for the counter responses that occur.

I also understand that the Pentagon's zillion dolar investment in inventions to counter this and IEDs indicates that its viewed as a potent threat.

I dont understand why you cannot detach yourself from your personal feelings (which you did rather well with that video you posted about the roots of the conflict) and simply examine the stratgies.

We havent gotten down to the data of whether it is a fully successfull strategy... Pape indicates that its success rate lies in securing short term gains but generally does not have a track record for securing large scale gains or goals.

The data on Afghanistan is pending.... key questions that analysts like Pape will have to account for:

1) Whats the body count on both sides relative to the utilization of this strategy?

2) Who do the civilians blame generally after such occurrences... many videos show that they redirect their blame to foreign forces.

Barakzai Jan. Should you log in and check out this thread again - I've highlighted the point that has roused my interest in the conversation here.

Broadly do I read your conjecture as 'action and reaction'? In which case, to a point, I follow what you are trying to say on this, which I think is that the Taliban are a response to the circumstances of the civil war and the presence of foreign troops, the US faces a backlash on its home soil because of its policy of interventionism etc.

But (taking note of the highlighted points) what you appear to be suggesting is that there is a greater instigator - particularly where you use the 'chess piece' analogy - this version somewhat exonerates the various protagonists in Afghanistan and opens up the debate about another party - here unnamed.

Would that the unnamed be political and therefore more tangible in terms of working out a solution for Afghanistan and the Pashtuns in general or are we speaking in theological terms in which case we cannot expect any different because all is predestined anyway?

[Shah-i-Kot]

Pashtuns are being persecuted from all corners.

From Pakistan, Pakistan permits supply routes and drone attacks. Pakistan has been supporting the war for 10 years, and conducted several operations in FATA. What Muslim unity?

From Iran, Iran has helped prop up a disproportionately Tajik dominated regime that seeks to make their language and "loose" and "free" culture the standard for Kabul. It is a Tajik dominated with regime with a puppet Pashtun Karzai who only cares about his own pockets. The real leader of this regime is Rangin Spanta, a Tajik expat.

Afghanistan can not be divided up, and nor split. What became present day Afghanistan was founded by Ahmad Shah Abdali. This empire encompassed what today is Afghanistan, Khyber Pakthunkhwa, FATA, and Balochistan.

Pashtuns have no option but to unite.

[Admin Khan]

^^see. this is where 'evidence based' demands get sticky.
where is the proof that these words were spoken by the MOHE official? i am not saying that it did not occur but see how one is ready to believe something that we want, because it backs our beliefs.
we all do it.

Well Faye, as you may or may not know this, we arent present in almost everything we read about in our current affairs, so that shouldnt mean we should live in our own bubble. We do however take some news in to consideration given its author. You asked for a source and here you got it. These are well known people in the media. The question of Afghan or Pakistani corruption isnt even a discussion. The same way one cant deny that some Indian students have been the victims of prejudice and racism in Australia, that too as students.

http://www.dawatfreemedia.org/english/index.php?mod=article&cat=pashto&article=249

[Afghanistan2010]

Pure racism,they are just scholars of words not actions,they are paid workers,wait til they are lowered to their graves,what will be their answer.

[faye]

Well Faye, as you may or may not know this, we arent present in almost everything we read about in our current affairs, so that shouldnt mean we should live in our own bubble. We do however take some news in to consideration given its author. You asked for a source and here you got it. These are well known people in the media. The question of Afghan or Pakistani corruption isnt even a discussion. The same way one cant deny that some Indian students have been the victims of prejudice and racism in Australia, that too as students.

http://www.dawatfreemedia.org/englis...to&article=249

actually, i didn't really need a reference, although interesting. i was using your comment as an example. a comment is made that says a certain thing but may not have the evidence within the statement.
i was responding to the thread itself.

i do realise that we are unable to be 'on the spot' or should 'live in a bubble'.
so the dig at australia was not necessary as i wasn't attacking you. sorry that you were offended.

[Admin Khan]

actually, i didn't really need a reference, although interesting. i was using your comment as an example. a comment is made that says a certain thing but may not have the evidence within the statement.
i was responding to the thread itself.

i do realise that we are unable to be 'on the spot' or should 'live in a bubble'.
so the dig at australia was not necessary as i wasn't attacking you. sorry that you were offended.

Faye, it wasn't a dig, nor am I offended. It was simply an example related to your spatial locality. Had you been from Nicaragua, I could've pulled an example from there to display how subjects could always be cross examined. I have every right to comment on Australia, the same way you have every right to comment on Afghanistan, given that our arguments are logical, reasonable and backed by credible evidence. The prevalent racism in Australia, against Indian students, is not a dig but a fact. The same way corruption in Afghanistan is a fact.

Hell, there is an entire wikipedia page devoted to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Indians_in_Australia_controversy

Let's not act like I'm cherry-picking. These are thousands of students that suffer at the hands of Aussies for studying there. The same way Pashtuns have suffered at the hands of some corrupt MOHE officials. We also must recognize one important fact. Which is, not all government officials in Afghanistan are corrupt. There are some terrific people really working for the betterment of the Afghan people. Same applies for Australia.

[khushal]

Sarwar Danish is the (MOHE)Minister of Higher Education. he is a hazara and his nomination has not been approved by the wolesi jirga but has been in that position since 2010. Almost all scholarships and benifits go to the hazara people. when they are telling pashtuns to go to mullah omar, well thats exactly what they are doing.

[faye]

Faye, it wasn't a dig, nor am I offended. It was simply an example related to your spatial locality. Had you been from Nicaragua, I could've pulled an example from there to display how subjects could always be cross examined. I have every right to comment on Australia, the same way you have every right to comment on Afghanistan, given that our arguments are logical, reasonable and backed by credible evidence. The prevalent racism in Australia, against Indian students, is not a dig but a fact. The same way corruption in Afghanistan is a fact.

Hell, there is an entire wikipedia page devoted to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violenc...ia_controversy

Let's not act like I'm cherry-picking. These are thousands of students that suffer at the hands of Aussies for studying there. The same way Pashtuns have suffered at the hands of some corrupt MOHE officials. We also must recognize one important fact. Which is, not all government officials in Afghanistan are corrupt. There are some terrific people really working for the betterment of the Afghan people. Same applies for Australia.

sure, you have every right to comment on australia. it is the reasoning behind your comment on australia, i was referring to. i am not sure that you have gotten my drift, seeing as you have continued with the racism subject.
i was going with the subject of the thread and was refering to the difficulty in having to give reference to every statement and belief in a debate or conversation. it just happened that your comment was the one i used. i was also going use as a reference, another comment by someone else, but couldn't find it.
as far as racism is concerned, from my personal experience, it is in every country i have been to and read about.