Do all religions extinguish?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Allah fordbid that all of the above turns out to be false. I pray to Allah that European society propspers and ovecomes these trends and I believe they will.

Imagine if there was no electricity, no modern medicines, no modern surgery, no health systems or hospitals (think about it when you run off to a hospital for free treatment of a family member), no heating or cooling, no cars, no planes, no phones, no computers, no TVs, no running water, no sewage treatment..I could go on and on..

I sincerely hope Europe does not become a Morrocco or Egypt or Libya as predicted above..

Its not about that. Think bigger picture. Education for all, multiculturalism, acceptance of all sorts of particular vices as long as they are personal and not public, secularism are all good principles in theory. However, that pesky aspect of our being, the fact that we are humans steps in the way of the completion of an ideal. That is why there is the very term ideal ism, relegating it to another sort of belief system of sorts.

As I have said before, people make false associations. For instance, I strongly believe that if one were to take the US constitution and ratify it for Uganda or Pakistan, that the correlation will not be 1:1 in terms of advancements. That is, 230 years one pass and suddenly Pakistan wont be an industrious productive nation with Harvard U in Karachi.

And with respect to feasible and practical evidence that these men are accurate, I shall provide you with the Russian government's own admission of this and a policy they promulgated that is representative of an attempt to respond to the figures/facts:

http://www.slate.com/articles/busine..._for_sale.html

^ Putin was having to pay women to have a second child.

Religion or lack thereof, despite what Toramana has been saying, does not correlate to defunct societies. As I noted, one would have to explain away Francis Collins and other prominent and accomplished folks who are evangelical.

By the same token, simply being a good moral or Muslim person is also not a free ticket to an industrious and successfull society. There is no direct link or correlation to prove this either.

With respect to how our humanity is getting in the way of these idealistic notions, take for instance the proven association between both nulliparity or late first birth (something that is now happening in more industrialized socities with a secular outlook) and the incidence of breast cancer.

Don't jump to conclusions, that does not mean an advocacy for grabbing your women and parceling them off at age 19 to combat the risk of breast cancer. But there are other middle of the road, reasonable solutions.

I think the Americans by far have provided some of the leading solutions or attempts at solutions which is why their birth rate is right on the cusp for a stable society. Clinton's laws have offered educated women the chance to give birth and spend some reasonable time with their child and then to return to work. The society has also shifted in its thinking. In the past the cream of the crop girls would go into surgery or try to compete with Males in the demanding fields. Now, the top female candidates are dominating dermatology and radiology in matches year after year, going into careers with good pay and better lifestyles for private practice and having families coupled to easier residency training. So even the culture has rebelled against the Betty Freiden ideologies of the Feminine Mystique.

European socities though are somewhat more reactionary and hypersecular to the point of absurdity where they attempt to clothe racism with flowery terminologies. Europeans attempt to actually look down on the Americans as if they were brutes and uncouth or the descendents of European criminals sent to a far away place. To the contrary, Americans have accomplished what Europe has only talked about in terms of greater assimilation of disparate people. The Americans also still retain a healthy rural urban divide that allows an appreciation for religion to flourish in vast swathes of the nation. This at times has led to stupid foreign policy and personal anguish for them, but has maintained a semblance of societal stability internally. Europe is basically a society in decline, ever embarassed over their failing and ailing socialism. This is not praise or defense of Americans or their actions, but this is simply an observation.

A personal anecdote of my dealings with American colleagues versus European colleagues:

At an academic institute in the midwest, the bastion of conservatism:
A Muslim patient who was a diabetic was in the outpatient center. He was telling the team, during Ramadan, about why he had some low blood glucose levels and why he hesitated to resolve them with eating sugary treats for emergent purposes. I quickly found him the ayaahs with respect to exceptions for fasting and the Americans were fascinated. They immediatly took out their note books and wrote down the ayahs in their Mass General Hand Books so that should such a situation arise again with the influx of refugees, they can resort to those verses for counseling.

Americans selected as chief a hijab wearing girl of an elite residency.

Versus:

An attending from Belgium turned to me once when she saw a medical student wearing the hijaab and said: why do these people have to wear their religion on their heads? Can't she see that she doesn't blend in and may make patients uncomfortable?

A Czech Engineer strong friend of mine argues that Muslims in America need to assimilate much more here and revise the Quran to fit the society and come up with a new standard version. I asked him if he had ever read the Quran... and it was a big no.

Sample size of 4 and I know these cannot be extended as proof positive, and things in the US will likely change as the war gets worse.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

^Omg you sounds so dum.... It's against islam infinetley=forever
you talk just trash here to sound smart but sadly you are not.

You have no clue what you're saying clearly. Every premise you established has been proven to be logically incongruent from the idea that medicine is allowed in Islam, to medical procedures which save life, to using medicine to improve longevity. You neither understand the terms you use nor do you apply them correctly. You don't understand the Islamic Legal precepts nor do you understand the technical aspects of what medicine does when applied from a empirical perspective. Diseases affect how long a person lives, this is a fact to treat disease is to assist them living longer. If you think this isn't so you're not smart at all.

How can you be for science when you don't understand it or against religion when your knowledge of it is poor? It's ironic because I find you making posts about education, but yet you don't have any basic knowledge on either the things you object nor the things you support.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

^I know.... I am not that religious, it's my weak point, I don't know why, even when I was a child religion didn't atract me, I always found it not interesting, I have read the Qoran ( the translation) and to be honest I was not really impressed.... But still the most important qulity in pashtun society is to be a good human being...

Dont worry, it gets better with time and experience. As you learn more and as you begin to understand human nature, when you return to it it will take on new meanings for you. The other reason why many folks are surprised by the Quran, for instance Thomas Carlyle found it very hard to read through (despite his admiration of the Prophet) and in modern times Gerard Puin has criticized its structure, flow, and use of ellipses, is that they expect a narrative like the Bible provides or like a story book provides. The Quran on the other hand is organized the way a constitution or guide book is organized. So many people preferring reading about the lives of those that wrote America's constitution or the excitement of the revolution. Its really the constitutional law folks that read the constitution and the supplementary material. However, as one grows and sees these discussions about freedom of speech, the right of minorities and females to vote they want to read the original document to understand what is actually written there. Reading through it though can be demanding or not based on circumstance.
Remember, the Quran was revealed piece meal across two decades and suited circumstances.

What I have tended to do is try to read a little every day if possible, but when an issue comes up that I want to understand... for instance if I hear about inheritance laws or about Divorce proceedings, I will go to the Quran and read those ayaahs.

Its sort of how medicine works. You can try to read about pneumonia 100 times and it may not stick. But when you see your first case and treat the patient and then go read again, you associate the reading with a practical application and remember it forever.

The Quran relies more on direct command from God to man versus the idea that if a series of stories are simply told that man will get inspired.

A good example is how there are multiple interpretations of the parable of the prodigal son from the Bible, some more theologically important than others.

The Quran does use parables occasionally though, but it tends to preface or affix the parable with its intent.

So dont fret, remember the Prophet was 40 when he first received the message. That does not mean that people should just neglect and not have forsight, but some things take time.

[badmash_khel]

"Religion is the opium of the masses"
That's a famous quote which explains that people need religion to cope with life's challenges and overcome them. People often don't like to hear the harsh truths and cling on to any sign of hope which religion provides with God being merciful and just. People can't cope with the fact that Hitler will go unpunished for killing 6 million jews or that many murderers who killed their lived ones can juat go unpunished so they need the assurance of justice in the afterlife and happy ending. People need the social capital that religion provides, Thats why even Richard Dawkins admits that religious cermonies and rituals need to be replaced with atheist ones to fill the void. Worshipping a higher being is in human nature wether its out of fear like volcanic mountains or admiration such as the Sun. Everyone worships something or the other, some replace God with money, some with a lover and some with their own desires. so in short no religion won't die, it will keep changing form.

[roadrunner]

Barakzai, I read the first line of that finally. He's referring to radical Islam and it is not true radical Islam has demography on it's side. When people educate, they lose radicality, aside from some who are inherently evil because of their own sad existence.

[roadrunner]

The Putin point is propaganda. The Russians have always had a social system. Women were always paid if they had extra children. It's the same all over the world. Gaddafi paid families by children I believe.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Barakzai, I read the first line of that finally. He's referring to radical Islam and it is not true radical Islam has demography on it's side. When people educate, they lose radicality, aside from some who are inherently evil because of their own sad existence.

Not true the 9/11 Hijackers were ALL highly educated. Another point debunked

[roadrunner]

Not true the 9/11 Hijackers were ALL highly educated. Another point debunked

What is your problem, fool? Most lose their radicality, the ones that don't lead sad lives. I'm not sure if your the first or second. You sound stupid and pathetic so it might be both.

[randolph85]

if you are trying to compare christians with muslims, than you are out of luck. people strive for islam in muslim countries, christians know theirs is a dead religion. muslims try to maintain the sanctity of their land while in supposedly christian countries, churches are within a short distance of liquor stores, brothels, strip clubs, and night clubs and lets just say theres no backed up line to get into a church.

[roadrunner]

Education reached Christian countries.

[randolph85]

how do you explain the golden age of islam when education and religion prospered and spread? if this were simply a matter of education, then the non muslims would of been smart enough to exterminate the islamic faith by now especially since they have had imperial and colonial control over most muslim lands for the last couple centuries. the non muslim powers couldn't even get their **** together at home, which led to the collapse of their colonies and empires. you are safer living in the most dangerous parts of afghanistan than you are living in some parts of new york city, los angeles, or DC.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

What is your problem, fool? Most lose their radicality, the ones that don't lead sad lives. I'm not sure if your the first or second. You sound stupid and pathetic so it might be both.

I am nether, but your correlation is utter nonsense. I'm just saying, take a clue from Sam Harris

[roadrunner]

how do you explain the golden age of islam when education and religion prospered and spread? if this were simply a matter of education, then the non muslims would of been smart enough to exterminate the islamic faith by now especially since they have had imperial and colonial control over most muslim lands for the last couple centuries. the non muslim powers couldn't even get their **** together at home, which led to the collapse of their colonies and empires. you are safer living in the most dangerous parts of afghanistan than you are living in some parts of new york city, los angeles, or DC.

I should have said extremist islam.

Though with better education religion is becoming extinct in the west. Or people are less hypocritical and the reality is everything is the same.

[Karachi]

road runner the quality of your posts have degraded significantly, what happened? you use to be funny

[roadrunner]

Humor is in the eye of the beholder.