My video the Islamist

[emkhan]

someone go to soldats home and smash his camera.

I am ready to go if he dare gives me his address I mean the correct one. But he won't want. It needs guts that he does not have.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Major correction.

Taliban did not formally exist prior to, or during the Soviet war (brought about by subversive communist activity/communist assassination of Daud Khan/communist revolution).

Emphasis: Daud Khan and his entire family were killed by Afghan communists. It's important for you to be told this, and to keep it as the reference point for all the events that ensue
The Afghan resistance groups did get support from US, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and many other Gulf countries. This is a fact, but how does it factor into any debate? The Afghan communists were funded by the Soviets? No objection there? Najib is responsible for the deaths of nearly 2 million Afghans.

The Taliban came to exist in response to the infighting/civil war between the Afghans.

So 1) subversive communist activity results in the communist assassination of Daud Khan

2) communists try to impose a foreign and unwanted ideology upon Afghans, resulting in a backlash

3) they support the Soviet invasion and war in Afghanistan

4) Soviets are defeated by Afghans

5) Afghans civil war starts in the aftermath, crime occurs, there is widespread disorder and chaos

6) Taliban and their brutal form of justice forms in response to this.

So can you connect the dots? What's number 1?

Who is responsible?

This is what happens when you respond to a post without reading it:

The word "Talib" is connotative of religiously-motivated fanatics who, with cruelty and barbarism, impose their version of religion on everyone by force and kill anyone they perceive as being worthy of death

The organization that referred to itself as the "Taliban" might have been created in the 90s but the mindset, the ideology and its practical uses came into being in 1973.

By the way, your understanding of history is very simplistic and straight-forward. Very Pakistani, I must say. The Afghans would have sorted out their own problems, they didn't need more than 20,000 regular Pakistani troops fighting in their country under the guise of the 'Taliban'. Look where it has brought us today.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

lol i just saw that someone named Sangartube has also commented on this video! I miss him actually...

[khushal]

The word "Talib" is connotative of religiously-motivated fanatics who, with cruelty and barbarism, impose their version of religion on everyone by force and kill anyone they perceive as being worthy of death. Pakistan was using religiously-motivated terrorists to kill innocent Afghan men, woman and children six years prior to the time when the Soviets were made to intervene. In fact, the Soviets were lured into Afghanistan. Initially, they were very reluctant about crossing the Oxus.

General Naseerullah Babar of the Pakistani army:

In order to convey a message to Sardar Daud that we could play the same game and to assess the training level of the resistance an operation was initiated in Panjsher Valley in August 1975. The operation was a total success. The Afghans suffered heavily in men and equipment…. In October 1973 while I was serving as IG FC, an Afghan named Habibur Rahman (Shaheed) came and contacted me about setting up a resistance movement in Afghanistan with active military assistance of Pakistan. I conveyed the same to Mr Bhutto, who accepted my proposal in view of the changed situation in Afghanistan and asked me to organise training of Afghans…. Thus we established the base of Afghan Mujahideen resistance in 1973…
Source: Defense Journal Monthly Magazine, Karachi. April 2001 - Remembering Our Warriors Babar “the great”


And the puppet masters were all in on it.

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Source: Le Nouvel Observateur magazine, Paris, 15-21 January 1998. CRG -- The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan


And before the US invasion of Afghanistan, virtually every terrorist and sectarian organization, from al-Qaeda to Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, had training camps in Afghanistan. Afghans preferred living in refugee camps in Pakistan to going back to that Taliban "heaven".

What you say is true LZ but you fail to comprehend that those matters would have been domestic issues for Afghanistan. These issues became international when the Soviets invaded. Afghan came to refugee camps in Pakistan and Iran because of the Soviet Invasion not because of Islamists or Taliban. The soviets invasion was a blessing to the ISI for they could direct billions in international aid towards their own goals.

The Arabs presence in Afghanistan during the 80's and after is also directly related to foreign intervention on their own lands namely the expulsion of the PLO from lebonon by Israel which led Abdul Azzam to Afghanistan which led others coming for training and organizing.

The invaders should mind their own business and let Afghans solve their own domestic issues. All blame lies with the invaders.

[Manzareh]

On another note I wonder what an ideal afghanistan would be for soldat, Amsterdam maybe??

[Ghundal]

This is what happens when you respond to a post without reading it:

The word "Talib" is connotative of religiously-motivated fanatics who, with cruelty and barbarism, impose their version of religion on everyone by force and kill anyone they perceive as being worthy of death

The organization that referred to itself as the "Taliban" might have been created in the 90s but the mindset, the ideology and its practical uses came into being in 1973.

By the way, your understanding of history is very simplistic and straight-forward. Very Pakistani, I must say. The Afghans would have sorted out their own problems, they didn't need more than 20,000 regular Pakistani troops fighting in their country under the guise of the 'Taliban'. Look where it has brought us today.

My apologies. I did not take interest in reading what you said because after the first line, I assumed it was the usual- my bad. I also have not watched Soldats video because I think from the title the same usual lines will be stated. "Hamid Gul is behind the Bermuda triangle"

Your version of history conflicts with the historical record. You depict Daud Khan in a way that ignores the fact that it was Afghan communists who killed him.
In any case, despite pointing out what was at first said you then proceed to say 20000 Pakistani soldiers were in Afghanistan.

Do you mind providing me the evidence for this?

Under the guise of the Taliban? Please provide the evidence showing that there was 20000 Pak soldiers in Afghanistan.

[afghan]

someone go to soldats home and smash his camera.

why dont you post your video response and face him more maturely.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Khushal - suicide attacks in Afghanistan preceded the US invasion in fact. Ahmed Shah Massoud, "Lion of Panjshir" and the most photographed person in Kabul (??!?) for example was killed by French/Belgian Moroccans suicide attackers just weeks before 9/11 and the subsequent invasion. He was a warlord, I'm not a fan, but in response to what you wrote - the modern tactic of suicide bombing was unknown in Afghanistan and Pakistan till then and clearly came from elsewhere.

I think it is worth understanding the how/the who and why it has happened on Pashtun soil. There was a tragic pattern in Palestine and I know somebody who was personally affected by a suicide bombing, but obviously this trend was exported and hence it affects us. Current figures put these kinds of attacks around 300 each in Afg/Pak (total 600+) and more than 1000 in Iraq since direct US intervention in the region.

The highest number of suicide attacks during the 80s and 90s happened in Sri Lanka and this was not an Muslim/American conflict.

You are confounding some concepts and not examining the details.

Point 1: Yes, Ahmad Shah Mossoud was killed point blank range via suicide bombing. However, Pashtuns were not the detonators. These were tunisians.

In the Soviet Afghan War the Afghan fighting unit leaders would comment that A) The Arabs were generally bad at fighting and needed further training and B) that the Afghan fighters sought to live to fight another day versus the Arab fighters that seemed intent on dying in battle.

Point 2: You mention Palestine. You need to expound on what happened in Palestine and what happened wherever these conflicts took place where resistance movements utilized said methodology. The common theme is that all of these conflicts are grossly assymetric. In fact the Palestinian conflict shows a group of people that are cut off from surrounding aid and shipment of balancer arms (note that the prior regimes of Hafiz Asad, Saddam Hussein, and Mubarak formed a sort of shield around Israeili territory in terms of fighters being able to make it to the lavante) will eventually resort to assymetric warfare. The declaration of the intifida (s) more than signifies this progression. Howso? You had a nuclear armed Israel facing off against a sticks and stones armed group of Palestinians. As we know from Finkelsteins work, multiple attempts to get the Israelis to sit down were merely stalling attempts to continue their equivalent of a manifest destiny march towards creating their Genesis predicted state that spans from "between the Nile and the Euphrates."

Point 3: You note that Iraq and Afghanistan have experienced a ballooning of this tactic.

I think instead of repeating the debate between SXE and myself, folks can go back to that thread and read our discussion.

There are major differences between the Soviet Afghan War and the Iraq -American Gulf War 2 and the Afghan American War now occuring.

I think even the communists here agree that the balance was shifted completely with the ability to neutralize Russian air power.

That balance has not occurred in the Afghan American War where the Americans continue to rule over the skies and have superior arms and fire power.

Its not really rocket science as to why this tactic is over utilized in modern conflicts. No one wants to lose men and no squadron leader in any war ever woke up one day and said "So lets send Abdul, Ahmad, and Habib out today because I think I just want to see them off themselves."

Prof. Robert Pape on "Dying to Win" (Part 3 of 4) - YouTube

^ In part 3 above Dr. Robert Pape, the doyen of Suicide Attack Analysis discusses the Iraq war trends starting at 3 minutes and 50 seconds.

At 5 minutes 23 seconds he discusses when the sunni suicide attacks started to abate.

He refers to the Pentagon's own numbers.

There is a direct correlation between ally troop departures and drop in the rate of attack.

He very brilliantly notes that when the surge occured, in Anbar, the general occupation troop number dropped.

Point 4: The Afghan war trend:

at minute 11 he starts discussing the trends in Afghan suicide bombing rates escalating in relation to

"About 83% of all the targets of suicide attacks in Afghanistan are US and NATO troops."

Regarding the bombings.

"90% are Afghan nationals, they are Pashtuns. 5% are nations from the border regions. And only 5% come from beyond the region of conflict."

These patterns were checked against NDS Kabul Intelligence database (since AbbassinaAfghan demands Afghan data). Afghan intelligence confirmed Pape's data.

[randolph85]

why dont you post your video response and face him more maturely.

because a response in text works just as well, and without the pretentiousness. i might as well ask u why u didnt response to me via video.

[afghan]

i dont want you to smash my camera.

[NokiaWnW]

My apologies. I did not take interest in reading what you said because after the first line, I thought it was the usual. I also have not watched Soldats video.

Your version of history is very ANPite I have to say, and as such holds little credibility.

In any case, despite pointing out what was at first said you then proceed to say 20000 Pakistani soldiers were in Afghanistan.

Do you mind providing me the evidence for this?

Under the guise of the Taliban? Please provide the evidence showing that there was 20000 Pak soldiers in Afghanistan.

Also, please respond to my numbered statements which point to the historical record and not some fantasy revision of history

'' In the late period of the war, of an estimated 45,000 force fighting on the side of the Taliban, only 14,000 were Afghans (Pashtuns)''
Marcela Grad. Massoud: An Intimate Portrait of the Legendary Afghan Leader (March 1, 2009 ed.). Webster University Press. p. 310.

''Between 2,000 and 3,000 Arabs under the command of Osama bin Laden fight for the Taliban, as does the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan and thousands of Pakistani Islamic militants.


Arab militants under bin Laden have been held responsible for some of the worst recent massacres in the civil war, killing hundreds of civilians in areas controlled by the United Front.''


''An estimated 25,000 Taliban troops, including some 10,000 Arab, Pakistani and Central Asian Islamic militants are now likely to step up their offensive, in the hope that the attack will cause a collapse of morale among Gen Massoud's troops.''
Afghanistan resistance leader feared dead in blast - Telegraph

''Of roughly 45,000 Pakistani, Taliban and al-Qaeda soldiers fighting against the forces of Massoud only 14,000 were Afghan''
Taliban massacres outlined for UN

Taliban massacres outlined for UN - Chicago Tribune

PaKistan started to provide stronger military support to the Taliban.
Pakistan: "The Taliban's Godfather"?


Taliban were heavily supported by Pakistan for fighting for Pakistan´s interests

Modern Afghanistan: A History of Struggle and Survival (1st ed.). London New York: I.B. Tauris & Co. p. 352


''In total there were believed to be 28,000 Pakistani nationals fighting inside Afghanistan: 20,000 were regular Pakistani soldiers either from the Frontier Corps or army and an estimated 8,000 were militants recruited in madrassas filling regular Taliban ranks''
Afghanistan resistance leader feared dead in blast - Telegraph


A 1998 document by the U.S. State Department confirms that "20–40 percent of [regular] Taliban soldiers are Pakistani

http://books.google.de/books?id=LEykWNn9-9EC&pg=PA166&dq=Pakistani+soldiers+among+Taliban+in+Afghanistan&hl=de&sa=X&ei=6ncCT8qoCcfktQaZ2PHVDw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Pakistani%20soldiers%20among%20Taliban%20in%20Afghanistan&f=false

http://books.google.de/books?id=6pbIziLpG7cC&pg=PA112&dq=Pakistani+soldiers+among+Taliban+in+Afghanistan&hl=de&sa=X&ei=6ncCT8qoCcfktQaZ2PHVDw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Pakistani%20soldiers%20among%20Taliban%20in%20Afghanistan&f=false

The Taliban where like white angles lol Calling militants and criminals who left jails to kill Muslims in Afghanistan. Everyone of you should be catched and than dealed with. But unfortunately, you coward Internet Jihadists will never show us your faces because you fear not God but the ordinery people who would knife you apart

[khushal]

Khushal - suicide attacks in Afghanistan preceded the US invasion in fact. Ahmed Shah Massoud, "Lion of Panjshir" and the most photographed person in Kabul (??!?) for example was killed by French/Belgian Moroccans suicide attackers just weeks before 9/11 and the subsequent invasion. He was a warlord, I'm not a fan, but in response to what you wrote - the modern tactic of suicide bombing was unknown in Afghanistan and Pakistan till then and clearly came from elsewhere.

I think it is worth understanding the how/the who and why it has happened on Pashtun soil. There was a tragic pattern in Palestine and I know somebody who was personally affected by a suicide bombing, but obviously this trend was exported and hence it affects us. Current figures put these kinds of attacks around 300 each in Afg/Pak (total 600+) and more than 1000 in Iraq since direct US intervention in the region.

The highest number of suicide attacks during the 80s and 90s happened in Sri Lanka and this was not an Muslim/American conflict.

It was done by AQ which had used suicide attacks before in place like yemen, saudi arabia, tanzania, and kenya but not on afghan soil until 9/10/01 to target Ahmed Shah Masood, I have read that the intention was to divide the Northern Alliance so the US would be forced to invade instead of using the NA to topple the Taliban. I dont know how much weight the theory holds though because if the US was after the designers of 911, they would not have hestitated to go into FATA in full force.

My intention was to say that afghans never incorporated nor approved of such tactics until after the US invasion.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Soldat - this video comes across more like a vox pop/soundbite and therefore there is more room for abstract conjecture and opinion. Everybody has opinions, but I think it is worth exploring the REASONS that militancy exists in the Pashtun belt and what a long term vision might entail.

It doesn't make comfortable reading or viewing for the Americans to look into a mirror and accept their responsibilities in the direct and indirect roles they have had in creating "Islamists". This aspect needs consideration. We cannot underestimate Pakistan's role here, but once again, there is a lot that is happening under the US's watch with tacit US approval. My question is who is really calling the shots?

I dont understand the commentary. When you say the US has had tacit involvement in such struggles do you mean that they looked the other way in regions like Nigeria when it suited their interests and when Muslim Christian conflicts were blossoming decades ago (refer to Bafria conflict)?

Or do you mean that they trained these folks and that this single handidly explains Islamism as a movement and explains its adherent profile?

If the theory is that The US created Islamist movements to further their agenda, thats a dangerous and unsubstantiated assumption that interventionists like Lavanay Zalmaay and Soldat utilize to further embroil the West as an occupant within Muslim lands. Its a canard that they use that only furthers Huntington's feared clash of civilizations. Their theory, which is very lacking in historical data or basis goes something like this:

"The US had a conflict with the Soviets so the US created Islamist fighters (absurd and idiotic since you cannot just whole cloth create a group of fighters in such numbers out of nowhere). They then lost control of these Frankensteins and now the fighters have turned on the hand that fed them. Therefore the West is obligated to clean up their mess and need Pashtun neocon equivalent cheer leaders (e.g. Soldat and LZ) to justify further interventionism."

Quiet the contrary, the only major high power pollings that have been done in the Muslim world were done through the University of Maryland and via the work of Dalia Mogahed and John Esposito.

The general data trends (I have posted them here throughout PF in many places) show that

1. Muslims, whisky drinkers and zealots alike, are perturbed at US interventionalism within their foreign countries.

2. The Arab spring vindicates the data from these groups that was collected a few years ago and shows that the overwhelming majorities in these counties want some form of sharia law enshrined in their governments.

3. Although the majority may not agree with AQ and like minded groups, they generally find commonality with the gripes that these groups have against American policy (uneven support Israel and tyrannical dictators).

4. Pakistan may utilize the language of Islam to amplify threats and has done so in instances even against the very folks that fight on its soil. So for instance, when the Islamists turned their rage on Islamabad, they became labeled as outside the fold of Islam and disruptive to the "Islamic" state of Pakistan.

Its tunnel vision to assume that worldwide, the language of Islamism and Political Islam found its cradle in Pakistan.

What I mean is that no amount of data, even miniscule, from the written words of these folks (i.e. the primary sources) validates that theory. Instead, the same gripes that the Baltimore study and Esposito's work found in their work is laced in the words of the Islamists that took up arms.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

'' In the late period of the war, of an estimated 45,000 force fighting on the side of the Taliban, only 14,000 were Afghans (Pashtuns)''
Marcela Grad. Massoud: An Intimate Portrait of the Legendary Afghan Leader (March 1, 2009 ed.). Webster University Press. p. 310.

''Between 2,000 and 3,000 Arabs under the command of Osama bin Laden fight for the Taliban, as does the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan and thousands of Pakistani Islamic militants.


Arab militants under bin Laden have been held responsible for some of the worst recent massacres in the civil war, killing hundreds of civilians in areas controlled by the United Front.''


''An estimated 25,000 Taliban troops, including some 10,000 Arab, Pakistani and Central Asian Islamic militants are now likely to step up their offensive, in the hope that the attack will cause a collapse of morale among Gen Massoud's troops.''
Afghanistan resistance leader feared dead in blast - Telegraph

''Of roughly 45,000 Pakistani, Taliban and al-Qaeda soldiers fighting against the forces of Massoud only 14,000 were Afghan''
Taliban massacres outlined for UN

Taliban massacres outlined for UN - Chicago Tribune

PaKistan started to provide stronger military support to the Taliban.
Pakistan: "The Taliban's Godfather"?


Taliban were heavily supported by Pakistan for fighting for Pakistan´s interests

Modern Afghanistan: A History of Struggle and Survival (1st ed.). London New York: I.B. Tauris & Co. p. 352


''In total there were believed to be 28,000 Pakistani nationals fighting inside Afghanistan: 20,000 were regular Pakistani soldiers either from the Frontier Corps or army and an estimated 8,000 were militants recruited in madrassas filling regular Taliban ranks''
Afghanistan resistance leader feared dead in blast - Telegraph


A 1998 document by the U.S. State Department confirms that "20–40 percent of [regular] Taliban soldiers are Pakistani


http://books.google.de/books?id=LEyk...nistan&f=false

http://books.google.de/books?id=6pbI...nistan&f=false

The Taliban where like white angles lol Calling militants and criminals who left jails to kill Muslims in Afghanistan. Everyone of you should be catched and than dealed with. But unfortunately, you coward Internet Jihadists will never show us your faces because you fear not God but the ordinery people who would knife you apart

Very simple to dismiss my parsiwaan stool pigeon. Where do you suppose that those Pakistani nations derive from?

Listen to Pape's lecture. Go to his suicide bombing search engine. 5% of all suicide bombings done in Afghanistan are Pakistani Pashtuns. Only a miniscule 5% derive from other regions. the overwhelming majority are Afghan Pashtuns.

Nek Muhammad Wazir himself fought inside Afghanistan at one point and would be considered a Pakistani national.

The issue here is that the communists and Najibiites like yourself cannot simulataneously advocate for a Pashtunistan and then deprive FATA pashtuns the right to fight inside Afghan territory. It works against your general theorized commentary regarding loya Afghanistan. Either FATA pashtuns have a right to stakes in Afghanistan or they do not. You have to make up your mind. If they dont then you have to relinquish claims to KP.

[NokiaWnW]

very simple to dismiss my parsiwaan stool pigeon. Where do you suppose that those pakistani nations derive from?

Listen to pape's lecture. Go to his suicide bombing search engine. 5% of all suicide bombings done in afghanistan are pakistani pashtuns. Only a miniscule 5% derive from other regions. The overwhelming majority are afghan pashtuns.

Nek muhammad wazir himself fought inside afghanistan at one point and would be considered a pakistani national.

The issue here is that the communists and najibiites like yourself cannot simulataneously advocate for a pashtunistan and then deprive fata pashtuns the right to fight inside afghan territory. It works against your general theorized commentary regarding loya afghanistan. Either fata pashtuns have a right to stakes in afghanistan or they do not. You have to make up your mind. If they dont then you have to relinquish claims to kp.

lol