Afghanistan belongs to Pakistan.

[Ghundal]

They've failed because the PEOPLE don't want them! The people of Afghanistan see Karzai the same way you do, as a puppet. But they're waiting till the bribes run out, then the real war will probably begin. pakistans role is also pretty limited. The most they can do is provide a place for the Taliban to stay and train them, or sometimes they send in a few LJ or ISI members to carry out attacks, like the TTP have done in pakistan. The ISI doesn't have as great of a political leverage as some people perceive.

Afghanistan has no central authority, no defined institutions and is politically fractured. Its failed because there was no legitimate government to begin with. The people didn't vote for Karzai. The existing tribal systems were completely ignored and the dominant Pashtuns were marginalized.

After 9/11, AQ was gone and the Taliban disbanded. The Americans didn't pounce on the opportunity to go back to the system that existed during Daoud Khans reign (at the behest of the other "oppressed" ethnic groups), something most Pashtun leaders were content with. Instead they were duped by the NA and their own paranoia and brought an affiliate of Massoud's; Karzai into power. The US picked the NA and people like Dostum; they viewed the vast majority of Pashtuns as members of the Taliban and later-2004 and onward-as ISI friendly, which was a ridiculous distortion and misunderstanding on their part (But then again Neo-cons were in power).

That subsequently led to the resurgence of the Taliban. Note that there's no one Taliban, there are different factions who are united because of the US's policy towards Pashtuns. They shoud've appealed to the Pashtuns then and there; endorsed free and fair elections and if they were sincere stuck to nation building and reduce their combat mission to a policing role by 2002. Plus bringing the ANP (Wali Khan and Mollana Hassan Jan, who helped keep psycho-fundis at bay through reason, were alive then) to power in 2002 in Pakhtunkhwa would've also helped (Note: the ISI supported the MMA in 2002) counteracting the ISI's duplicity.

The militant groups who're friendly with the ISI share good relations with other groups who're not necessarily comfy with the ISI but appreciate benefiting off their support. pakistan rather they operate in Afghanistan instead of pakistan. pakistan wants to see a stagnant Afghanistan because a developed Afghanistan represents a bigger threat than india. Pashtunistan was almost a reality in the 1970s; the movement was curtailed (slightly) when Akbar Bugti filled ZAB in on the ground floor of the operations (Bugti became Governor of Balochistan and later Chief Minister). pakistan jumped into the Soviet invasion because it would divert Pashtuns attentions from wanting a united homeland (Bengalis seceded in 1971)

Basically its not just one reason that Karzai and NATO have failed. Its a combination of many.

1) Marginalizing Pashtuns.

2) Lack of free and fair elections.

3) NATO military presence.

4) Bribing tribes

5) pakistani and indian (one will always try to counteract the other) meddling in Afghan affairs.

Also, they could have brought the Chinese, russians, Brazilians, Japanese, iranians, indians, pakistanis,etc. under a UN mandate to help in the nation-building process. No military presence, simply humanitarian. Limit military training to UN peace-keeping forces. That way no group could promote its own interests over the other because the ramifications would be severe, and most importantly it wouldn't seem like an occupation, the job would've been done quicker and the Afghan people would've been left to take care of their own affairs. This scenario was suggest by Lakhdar Brahimi at one time, a few days before the US invasion, but it fell on deaf ears.

Finally, I wouldn't exactly call it a semi-World War. I'd say its more of a precursor to one. Greater Afghanistan lies at an extremely key juncture. It connects the far-east and Central Asia with the subcontinent and the Arabian Gulf. Not to mention the resources available in this area. Many commentators are referring to this conflict as the 2nd Great Game because the Chinese and Americans desperately need those mining contracts in Afghanistan, the oil-pipeline from both Afghanistan via Turkmenistan and pakistan via iran, and access to the Gwadar sea-port in pakistan; and the Pashtuns are caught in the middle of this mess, and because they refuse to compromise their freedom and independence in this battle for global domination, they're forced to fight. They did it against the british, against the Soviets and now they're doing it against the NATO.

While I still don't understand some of what you are saying, you have presented an accurate assessment here

I'm sure we can agree that had Daud Khan not been assassinated by militant communist terrorists, things would have been much different.

While there is really no need to divulge my opinion on Daud Khan, I will say that he at least towards the end of his tenure was creating the foundations of a viable state and appears to have realized that a central gov would not work

History of Afghanistan would have been very different. He also made some stupid mistakes in regards to dress code. It appears he did not read history too often.

[khushal]

I doubt pashutnistan was almost a reality in the 70's. Daud khan was ready to recognize durand line in the 70s before he was assasinated. I am reluctant to beleive the ISI brought the MMA to power. I think it was a reaction from the pashtun population and saw the ANP as traitors for supporting the US invasion of Afghanistan. but as far as the US being incompetent in dealing with Afghanistan after 9/11. That is true, same with Iraq. arrogance blinded the neo cons.

[az4er]

While I still don't understand some of what you are saying, you have presented an accurate assessment here

I'm sure we can agree that had Daud Khan not been assassinated by militant communist terrorists, things would have been much different.

While there is really no need to divulge my opinion on Daud Khan, I will say that he at least towards the end of his tenure was creating the foundations of a viable state and appears to have realized that a central gov would not work

History of Afghanistan would have been very different. He also made some stupid mistakes in regards to dress code. It appears he did not read history too often.

I know, its too much info to take in at once.

Not having been born then, I'd probably not know what to make of Daoud Khan's reforms or social policies. All I know is that in his bid to reunite the Pashtuns he played with fire and sadly ended up getting burnt.


I'm sure we can agree that had Daud Khan not been assassinated by militant communist terrorists, things would have been much different.


LOL at "militant communist terrorists". OK...yeah sure, I guess we can agree on that much.


And thanks for the "accurate assessment" comment. I guess coming from you that should mean alot? Appreciate it...

[Ghundal]

I know, its too much info to take in at once.

Not having been born then, I'd probably not know what to make of Daoud Khan's reforms or social policies. All I know is that in his bid to reunite the Pashtuns he played with fire and sadly ended up getting burnt.


I'm sure we can agree that had Daud Khan not been assassinated by militant communist terrorists, things would have been much different.


LOL at "militant communist terrorists". OK...yeah sure, I guess we can agree on that much.


And thanks for the "accurate assessment" comment. I guess coming from you that should mean alot? Appreciate it...

I think they are terrorists

Well, if you feel like going at it again, your idea that Pakistan didn't bend down to serve US interests due to threats betrays the facts which are in black and white printed text

As recent events show, US got quite used to pushing Pakistan around and asking "to do more." in fact, Hillary made her warning clear in her last visit to PaK

Turns out Hillary's threat in fact came to pass, but it appears to have backfired.

I think with Imran's escalating candidacy, the memo gate politics, and US-PaK tension, Pakistan may in fact be divesting out of this war for good, but then subservience is a habit. Imran has made it clear he is ending it( 7 year old stance)

if Imrans popularity continues to rise, he becomes more powerful than the army

[az4er]

I doubt pashutnistan was almost a reality in the 70's. Daud khan was ready to recognize durand line in the 70s before he was assasinated. I am reluctant to beleive the ISI brought the MMA to power. I think it was a reaction from the pashtun population and saw the ANP as traitors for supporting the US invasion of Afghanistan. but as far as the US being incompetent in dealing with Afghanistan after 9/11. That is true, they even were incompetent in dealing with Iraq. arrogance blinded the neo cons.

I just went through this in my previous posts. The pakistan army invaded the Iraqi embassy in the 70s because it was housing heavy weaponry which was to be provided to the NAP. Akbar Bugti sold out the NAP because other rival Baloch tribal leaders were given the nod ahead of him in the agreed upon power structure.

I sincerely doubt he was going to recognize it. It wouldn't have been a popular move nor would it have benefited him in any way. There was no detente agreement with pakistan either. Zulfikar Bhutto was as hostile as ever to Daoud Khan and members of the NAP, killing hundreds at rallies using his FSF and lets not forget the Hyderabad Tribunal.

I was there at the time, and I still remember very clearly when the meetings between the DG ISI and Fazlur Rehman (who earned the nickname Maulana Diesel for his smuggling runs to Kabul), Qari Hussain and that third Moolla (forgot his name) took place, how everyone in the then Frontier was rattled by the impending "fundamentalist" takeover to the point some started applying for asylum to different countries. Their was talk that they were going to enact looney laws, like banning pictures and stuff (didn't happen).

It was open news at the time that the military establishment were supporting them. I remember people putting up banners in parts of the city exclaiming that the "Kitaab Wala" were coming. They didn't even have a name at the time. Plus they won in constituencies in which it would have-under normal circumstances-been humanly impossible to win. A random Mullah winning NA-2 in Peshawar is unheard of. The constituency belongs to the Arbabs of the Khalilzai of Takal; a large part of the constituency is known as Jehangirabad, named after former Chief Minister and Federal Minister Arbab Jehangir. His son lost to a nobody despite being backed by both the ANP and PPP.

This wasn't a reaction to the WoT. This was Musharraf rigging the elections to extort more money from the Americans; it was supposedly a display of extremism . And it wasn't just there. It happened in poonjab, the Q-League and MQM, who were Musharraf friendly, won overwhelming majorities in the poonjab and Sindh respectively.

I don't the ANP or anyone from within their ranks ever released a statement at the time regarding the war. As far as I know, they were neither for it nor against it. The current stance was a political maneuver to maximize their chances of forming a government.

[az4er]

I think they are terrorists

Well, if you feel like going at it again, your idea that Pakistan didn't bend down to serve US interests due to threats betrays the facts which are in black and white printed text

As recent events show, US got quite used to pushing Pakistan around and asking "to do more." in fact, Hillary made her warning clear in her last visit to PaK

Turns out Hillary's threat in fact came to pass, but it appears to have backfired.

I think with Imran's escalating candidacy, the memo gate politics, and US-PaK tension, Pakistan may in fact be divesting out of this war for good, but then subservience is a habit. Imran has made it clear he is ending it( 7 year old stance)

if Imrans popularity continues to rise, he becomes more powerful than the army

Again??!! And I just started to warm up to you! Man... look, the statements were a PR stunt. Evidence points to contrary. LJ, AuI, SSP, Taliban,etc are still operating in full swing, in Afghanistan, in Kashmir and in india (bombay attacks). Its no different than it was before. If you want additional info, I already told you, I've hung around enough former and current generals and intel cheifs, and most (80%) have told me it was a PR stunt. Fact is, like you said no one can force another nation to do something it doesn't want to. With the Chinese and pakistans own military capacity (nukes) the US were never going to invade. The Americans knew that and pakistan knew that.

Hillary and Obama are demagogues who carry out right wing policies utilizing left cover. The "do more" mantra has been spat out many a time and like a wad of saliva in a projectile trajectory has been pretty much dodged and ignored. pakistan knows if it operates again in NW, the backlash would be destructive, so they're now focusing on nation building throughout FATA and like you said pulling out of the war. The "friendly" Taliban they have will most probably be let go of once the US leave, but that depends on the current COAS Kayani and if his potential successor.

I don't know about Imran. I already told you what I know about his political past and some of his key advisers. The army has currently invested alot in him. They brought him into politics in the first place. It goes all the way back to Zia-ul-Haq, and then to Hamid Gul and his "perfect pakistan" scheme. I don't think he's any different than the other politicians out there in pakistan; only difference is he hasn't been bought out by the CIA; yet or maybe not!

[khushal]

Az4er,

daud khan realized that the pashtunistan issue he was championing was a disaster to afghanistan. it forced afghanistan to rely completely on the soviet union to a point that a became a satilite state. he realized that afghanistan was losing its independence and did a 180 after meeting with pakistani, iranian and arab leaders and convinced him to let go of the soviets and embrace his muslim brothers in exchange for Aid that replace soviet Aid.

IT were the soviets that staged dauds assasination becasue they knew that if Afghanistan recognizes the durand line, they would slowly lose afghanistan. Daud even famously said publicly to breznev "I am the president of Afghansitan, not you."

As long as Afghanistan refused to recognize the durand line, afghansitan would be forced to rely on it northern neighbor. The soviets miscalculated the whole strategy. Killing daud only destablized the country. the soviets even foolishly were pressuring the afghans to bring socialist reforms quickly tot he country which further destablized the country to a point that the soviets had no choice but to invade.

On the other side I would agree that CIA and PAkistan were working together to destabilze afghansitan to a point that would force the soviets to invade and prevent a pro american government on its southern border, which is what the soviets feared.

I am not convinced that pakistan trully fears pashtunistan. I think the KP pashtuns are overwhelming pro pakistan. they have huge benifits in paksitan economically and militarily more so than they would if they were independent or unified with Afghanistan.

I would say that pakistan is leveraging its position, selling that leverage for USDs. Pakistan knows 100% that pashtuns hold power in afghanistan, without pashtun, afganistan would be a mess and a head ache for the US. Pakistan is willing to give any aid the US wants for the USDs and the PAkistanis know that the US can never win as long as the pashtun are marginalized. The US has recently realized this fact and that is the reason they are begging the taliban for negotiations. The US would live with a taliban ruled afghanistan as long as there is a guarantee that AQ would not take sanction there. PAkistan form the beginning knew that it was in a win win situation. A stabilized but weak Afghanistan with taliban in power, they win, and a destabilzed afghanistan, they win. The people to blame for the tremendous cost of this war in afghan and american lives not to mention money. the NA who duped the US into marginalizing the pashtuns so they could rule for the first time.

[az4er]

Az4er,

daud khan realized that the pashtunistan issue he was championing was a disaster to afghanistan. it forced afghanistan to rely completely on the soviet union to a point that a became a satilite state. he realized that afghanistan was losing its independence and did a 180 after meeting with pakistani, iranian and arab leaders and convinced him to let go of the soviets and embrace his muslim brothers in exchange for Aid that replace soviet Aid.

IT were the soviets that staged dauds assasination becasue they knew that if Afghanistan recognizes the durand line, they would slowly lose afghanistan. Daud even famously said publicly to breznev "I am the president of Afghansitan, not you."

As long as Afghanistan refused to recognize the durand line, afghansitan would be forced to rely on it northern neighbor. The soviets miscalculated the whole strategy. Killing daud only destablized the country. the soviets even foolishly were pressuring the afghans to bring socialist reforms quickly tot he country which further destablized the country to a point that the soviets had no choice but to invade.

On the other side I would agree that CIA and PAkistan were working together to destabilze afghansitan to a point that would force the soviets to invade and prevent a pro american government on its southern border, which is what the soviets feared.

I am not convinced that pakistan trully fears pashtunistan. I think the KP pashtuns are overwhelming pro pakistan. they have huge benifits in paksitan economically and militarily more so than they would if they were independent or unified with Afghanistan.

I would say that pakistan is leveraging its position, selling that leverage for USDs. Pakistan knows 100% that pashtuns hold power in afghanistan, without pashtun, afganistan would be a mess and a head ache for the US. Pakistan is willing to give any aid the US wants for the USDs and the PAkistanis know that the US can never win as long as the pashtun are marginalized. The US has recently realized this fact and that is the reason they are begging the taliban for negotiations. The US would live with a taliban ruled afghanistan as long as there is a guarantee that AQ would not take sanction there. PAkistan form the beginning knew that it was in a win win situation. A stabilized but weak Afghanistan with taliban in power, they win, and a destabilzed afghanistan, they win. The people to blame for the tremendous cost of this war in afghan and american lives not to mention money. the NA who duped the US into marginalizing the pashtuns so they could rule for the first time.

First off thanks for agreeing with some of my points, i.e. the 4th and the last paragraph. I think you read up on some of the previous posts? If not.. thats cool.

I always saw Daoud Khan's support for Pashtunistan as more of an ideological thing, but I could be wrong because as you pointed out there was that OIC and OPEC group of countries at the time and Daoud Khan was the only one who wasn't on board. I always thought that it was ZAB who was blocking his entry into it. Like I said in my earlier posts I wasn't around then and what you get in books doesn't quite paint a clear picture. So it'd be hard for me to assess Daoud Khan's intentions.

Concerning pakistans fear of Pashtunistan, I can assure you that Pashtuns seceding is a very real threat to pakistani soverignty. They invaded the Iraqi Embassy! Its not visible because they try to keep it invisible. Why do you think they were so reluctant to rename a province?

And did you know that in 1948, jinnah sent the pak army into Kashmir after the Maharaja, in accordance with his peoples wishes decided to remain an independent state? He defected to india after jinnah convinced Pashtun tribesmen to invade Kashmir by telling them that innocent Muslims lives were at stake. I knew a retired Brig. who commanded a militia of tribal irregulars, an englishman in the pakarmy (he passed away a while ago) who told me that jinnah sent militias and troops to Kashmir because if the Kashmiris were to have an independent state of their own that would reignite the cause for Baloch independence which in turn would focus the spotlight on the illegitimacy of the Durand Line. And if the "Pathans" were to secede, pakistan would've seized to exist then and there.

Another example of their paranoia is a policy which I've dubbed as "stagnate, manipulate and indoctrinate"; something that was perfectly illustrated during the Soviet War when the zia and his cohorts jumped into the war without thinking twice. It made them extremely rich (Mercedez Zamana) and it kept the Pashtuns under control. Prior to that the NAP as I mentioned earlier, as I've heard from Wali Khan and former COAS Gen Tikka Khan, came within inches of bifurcating West pakistan.

Here's another example, why do you think pakistan was so silent regarding the massacres and brutalities in Bangladesh? And even though there were 90,000 military personnel present, they gave up without a fight?

Ayub Khan had said as much during a interview in the 60s and stated in his memoirs that given the distance and "differences in culture", it was inevitable that the Bengalis were going to secede. West pakistan's job was supposed to hold onto it as long as they could in order to prevent other ethnic groups from splintering. That, and they should use whatever profit they make from the sale Bengali products and resources, entirely on West pakistan.

The reason KP Pashtuns seem comfortable in pakistan is because Afghanistan doesn't present itself as a viable option. But if you ask them if they'd like to see the "border" with Afghanistan shut, most of them would say no. People tend to focus more on their personal security first; then on their economic and fiscal security second; and finally they tend to look into social issues once the other two are covered. The pakistan government has begun to ease up on its rigid and unfair policies towards Pashtuns in FATA, PATA and Balochistan and have started development work after going through that entire ordeal with the TTP.

I can also tell you this much, a great deal of young educated upper and middle class Pashtuns in Pakhtunkhwa are going through a severe identity crisis and feel no more a part of pakistan than your average Balochi does (Balochis DESPISE pakistan). Its not much but it does count for something and I've noticed its become something of an endemic, their ranks keep swelling with each passing year. It shows that there's definitely something going on there. There's a demand for Pashtun history to be taught in schools and Pashto be declared a national or provincial language with it being the medium of instruction in schools, K-12.

[Ghundal]

And I guess the fact that false nationalist groups like ANP and PMAP's attainment of some measure of personal security allows them to continuously support foreign wars on the very people they claim to represent.

I think these could be the first nationalists in the world (including Najib) who support foreign war continuously on the people they claim to work for. It is in fact a false nationalism, and in reality is a clash of ideologies.
Furthermore, it is actually wrong for such groups to claim authority over the nationalistic term since they in fact violate every single aspect of what it means to be a nationalist

On the contrary, they are trying to paint ant-nationalist behavior as nationalism (supporting war on people they claim to represent- who would have ever thought?)

TTP came to be due to both the war in Afghanistan and Pakistans support for that war. Wherever there is foreign meddling, especially from the West, there will always be militancy reactionism which forms in response. This reasoning alone is enough of an explanation that is supported by research conducted by Dr. Pape (university of Chicago)

Let's assume pre-Islamic times, the situation would still be the same.

[Soldat_Amir]

I shouldnt be commenting however I couldnt resist.

Zaid Hamid they say took part in the Anti Soviet Jihad, he was working with the likes of Ahmed Shah Masood group.

He makes it very clear and has made it much easier for people like me to explain that the ISI had a active role way before Communism/Soviet soldiers ever stepped into Afghanistan.

As a matter of fact the ISI has even supported Sayaf and his brother who was a communist too against the Afghan authorities at the time.

What ever he says is what the ISI and Pakistan wants, to turn Afghanistan into another province.

[khushal]

First off thanks for agreeing with some of my points, i.e. the 4th and the last paragraph. I think you read up on some of the previous posts? If not.. thats cool.

I always saw Daoud Khan's support for Pashtunistan as more of an ideological thing, but I could be wrong because as you pointed out there was that OIC and OPEC group of countries at the time and Daoud Khan was the only one who wasn't on board. I always thought that it was ZAB who was blocking his entry into it. Like I said in my earlier posts I wasn't around then and what you get in books doesn't quite paint a clear picture. So it'd be hard for me to assess Daoud Khan's intentions.

Concerning pakistans fear of Pashtunistan, I can assure you that Pashtuns seceding is a very real threat to pakistani soverignty. They invaded the Iraqi Embassy! Its not visible because they try to keep it invisible. Why do you think they were so reluctant to rename a province?

And did you know that in 1948, jinnah sent the pak army into Kashmir after the Maharaja, in accordance with his peoples wishes decided to remain an independent state? He defected to india after jinnah convinced Pashtun tribesmen to invade Kashmir by telling them that innocent Muslims lives were at stake. I knew a retired Brig. who commanded a militia of tribal irregulars, an englishman in the pakarmy (he passed away a while ago) who told me that jinnah sent militias and troops to Kashmir because if the Kashmiris were to have an independent state of their own that would reignite the cause for Baloch independence which in turn would focus the spotlight on the illegitimacy of the Durand Line. And if the "Pathans" were to secede, pakistan would've seized to exist then and there.

Another example of their paranoia is a policy which I've dubbed as "stagnate, manipulate and indoctrinate"; something that was perfectly illustrated during the Soviet War when the zia and his cohorts jumped into the war without thinking twice. It made them extremely rich (Mercedez Zamana) and it kept the Pashtuns under control. Prior to that the NAP as I mentioned earlier, as I've heard from Wali Khan and former COAS Gen Tikka Khan, came within inches of bifurcating West pakistan.

Here's another example, why do you think pakistan was so silent regarding the massacres and brutalities in Bangladesh? And even though there were 90,000 military personnel present, they gave up without a fight?

Ayub Khan had said as much during a interview in the 60s and stated in his memoirs that given the distance and "differences in culture", it was inevitable that the Bengalis were going to secede. West pakistan's job was supposed to hold onto it as long as they could in order to prevent other ethnic groups from splintering. That, and they should use whatever profit they make from the sale Bengali products and resources, entirely on West pakistan.

The reason KP Pashtuns seem comfortable in pakistan is because Afghanistan doesn't present itself as a viable option. But if you ask them if they'd like to see the "border" with Afghanistan shut, most of them would say no. People tend to focus more on their personal security first; then on their economic and fiscal security second; and finally they tend to look into social issues once the other two are covered. The pakistan government has begun to ease up on its rigid and unfair policies towards Pashtuns in FATA, PATA and Balochistan and have started development work after going through that entire ordeal with the TTP.

I can also tell you this much, a great deal of young educated upper and middle class Pashtuns in Pakhtunkhwa are going through a severe identity crisis and feel no more a part of pakistan than your average Balochi does (Balochis DESPISE pakistan). Its not much but it does count for something and I've noticed its become something of an endemic, their ranks keep swelling with each passing year. It shows that there's definitely something going on there. There's a demand for Pashtun history to be taught in schools and Pashto be declared a national or provincial language with it being the medium of instruction in schools, K-12.

I read all your posts on this thread and you put forward interesting points and I mostly agree with them.
Although I just have a hard time beleiving that KP pashtuns would be anti pakistan for reasons that you have stated that afghanistan does not give a viable option for them. If KP pashtuns really wanted independence or wanted to join afghanistan, then I dont think pakistan has the power to prevent what they want. Its becasue they dont want to they have stayed with pakistan.

Ever since the creation of Pakistan, The Afghani state has been very secular. In places like Kabul you would see women in mini skirts, this lifestyle does not appeal to the pashtun mindset who regards Islam and modesty as very important in their life. You never saw anything like that in any paksitani city. Even though the pakistani leaders themselves were secular and lived the secular lifestyle, they never brought that to the masses or even tried to bring that to the masses. One of the main reason Afghanistan collapsed before pakistan is because Afghan leaders were foolish to bring this lifestyle to the masses when the masses did not want it.
As long as pakistan can keep the Islamic banner up, even though the foundation is everything the opposite of Islam, KP pashtuns would stick to Pakistan because they only know what they see and the foundation is hidden from them.

[khushal]

I shouldnt be commenting however I couldnt resist.

Zaid Hamid they say took part in the Anti Soviet Jihad, he was working with the likes of Ahmed Shah Masood group.

He makes it very clear and has made it much easier for people like me to explain that the ISI had a active role way before Communism/Soviet soldiers ever stepped into Afghanistan.

As a matter of fact the ISI has even supported Sayaf and his brother who was a communist too against the Afghan authorities at the time.

What ever he says is what the ISI and Pakistan wants, to turn Afghanistan into another province.

There was a military skirmish with russian troops in 1885 when russian troops seized Afghan territory south of the oxus. Ever since Russian involvement in afghanistan continued. The Soviets played a much more earlier and active role in Afghanistan than Pakistan or the US. There were Soviet Adviser and military trainers in Afghanistan since the 50'. AS Az4er has stated, all these issues would have stayed domestic if the Soviet Union had not invaded.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

The Soviets had no intention of supporting a communist coup. Maaaaybe a group within Military Intelligence, but certainly not the KGB or the Politboro authorized it.

The coup took place, because Daud Khan was alarmed at the Commies growing popularity, and he wanted to move towards an Islamic orientation (this despite killing and imprisoning many Islamists)

The Khalqis acted out of self preservation, the coup was not sanctioned by the Soviets

After the coup, the Soviets implored the Khalqis not to declare a communist state, but rather a socialist one as they recognized the ground was not fertile for communism. They implored the Khalqis to have non communists in their govt and to retract their radical policies

Taraki asked for Soviet troops before and was rejected.

[az4er]

I read all your posts on this thread and you put forward interesting points and I mostly agree with them.
Although I just have a hard time beleiving that KP pashtuns would be anti pakistan for reasons that you have stated that afghanistan does not give a viable option for them. If KP pashtuns really wanted independence or wanted to join afghanistan, then I dont think pakistan has the power to prevent what they want. Its becasue they dont want to they have stayed with pakistan.

Ever since the creation of Pakistan, The Afghani state has been very secular. In places like Kabul you would see women in mini skirts, this lifestyle does not appeal to the pashtun mindset who regards Islam and modesty as very important in their life. You never saw anything like that in any paksitani city. Even though the pakistani leaders themselves were secular and lived the secular lifestyle, they never brought that to the masses or even tried to bring that to the masses. One of the main reason Afghanistan collapsed before pakistan is because Afghan leaders were foolish to bring this lifestyle to the masses when the masses did not want it.
As long as pakistan can keep the Islamic banner up, even though the foundation is everything the opposite of Islam, KP pashtuns would stick to Pakistan because they only know what they see and the foundation is hidden from them.

I have to disagree with you on that one. On the 21st of July 1947, a resolution was adopted by Dr. Jabbar Khans "Frontier National Congress" (FNC) (which controlled the provincial assembly), Ghaffar Khans KK and the "Zalmay Pukhthana". They unanimously declared that a separate independent Pashtun state be established. The next day at a rally, Ghaffar Khan declared that all these groups were going to boycott the referendum. The only options on the ballot were india and pakistan. Ghaffar and the others wanted Afghanistan or independence to also be included as an option. It didn't happen, hence, the boycott.

Only about 580,000 out of a possible 4 million were allowed to vote. And even worse, only 290,000 votes were even polled. Part of the reason was obviously the boycott. The other was due to the obvious rigging, in addition to Caroe's fear mongering (the british supported the creation of a pakistani state), which forced all the Khans to defect towards the "Muslim League", convinced by Abdur Rab Nishtar (who himself was stabbed in the back by two other british agents Qayyum and Liauqat Ali Khan). Plus the attitude of the Khan brothers didn't help either, nonetheless, popular vote was on their side, which the other landowning Khans had a problem with. After the vote, when Qayyum Khan and his "League" came into power in the province, he privately admitted in many circles and to the imprisoned Jabbar Khan that the votes that weren't counted were cast for india! (Note: During the run-up to the referendum, he's believed to have killed no less than 200 people, to prevent them from voting)

Although it was physically and ideologically impossible to become a part of india, a vote for india would've meant a vote for independence.

You're right pakistan doesn't have the power to prevent Pashtuns from seceding, but it certainly has the capability to divert people's attentions from it. As I mentioned the NAP, which was on the opposition benches of the federal legislature, and controlled the NWFP and Balochistan ones, came inches within of bifurcating the state. It was only when the Soviets invaded, that presented itself as an opportunity.

Why do you think they were so chummy with the Taliban? india has historically had good relations with Afghanistan. pakistan went through one of its most successful periods of economic growth under the elder bhutto with a
"free" and "independent" Afghanistan next door.

Peshawar was no different back then; miniskirts, discos and other stuff associated with the 70s was quite prevalent back then (not as much as Kabul but still). So were foreigners and tourist. They disappeared after when zia came into power. And by 2001, all of them were gone.

I believe all Pashtuns are secular by nature but their protective nature leaves them vulnerable to manipulation, the kind you see regurgitated by pakistan. The 70s were by far the hey-day for Pashtun independence under the pakistani state; Pashtuns in FATA, PATA, NWFP and Balochistan were reaping the benefits of a modern education; had the Soviets never invaded, I sincerely believe that we'd be looking at a very different map of South-Central Asia.

As for today, most Pashtuns are brainwashed into loving their "country", because their history is kept from them, and even then vast majority simply don't care. The dominant attitude among Pashtuns is "whatever". Their first priority is to provide for their family's needs and security. Having said that, people are becoming more socially aware; they are going through an identity crisis within pakistan; and I don't see how long the pakistani state can keep this fallacy going, especially if Afghanistan gets back on its feet. They will have to confront it sooner or later.

After taking huge blows in the WoT, pakistan has learned its lesson and has stopped using the Islam card as much as it used to. They've finally decided to promote development and build infrastructure in FATA and PATA. It may have come too late, but its a positive sign which can only lead to greater security, opportunity and social awareness.

Abdul Wali Challenges President Bhutto - YouTube

[az4er]

Amazing footage. Also NOTE when he starts talking to the dude from Jalalabad in the Saddar bazaar.


Roving Report: North Western Frontier (1) - YouTube
Roving Report: North Western Frontier (1) - YouTube


Roving Report: North Western Frontier (2) - YouTube
Roving Report: North Western Frontier (2) - YouTube