For the Loy Afghanistan/Pashtunistan supporters....

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Amir, torkham, BLS and others,


I think Pashtun reunification is inevitable. The only thing that matters is when it will take place.

Human societies have shown that they are collectively very similar to each other, whether they're in South America or Asia. Intellectually speaking, our part of the world is in the 15th century. We haven't even reached the era of urbanization (19-20th centuries). India and China have reached the stage urbanization and are experiencing huge culture-shifts but we're still predominantly rural.

We have seen in Europe and elsewhere that when societies begin to urbanize and when education becomes prevalent, communities tend to grow more nationalist. It happened in Germany, Italy, Russia, France, England, Japan, etc... After all, it's only a matter of common sense for a Pashtun in Pakistan to see that while he represents 10-12% of Pakistan, his people already represent more than 60% of Afghanistan and a merger between KP, FATA, southern Pashtunkhwa with Afghanistan would be a matter of common sense. Right now, Pakistan is associated in the semi-literate Pashtun's mind as Islam. Opposing Pakistan is like denying the Quran and Sunnah. The Punjabis know that this Pakistan does not equal Islam but religion is a powerful tool to control people with. Only education can break the Pashtuns of Pakistan free from their feudal mental slavery. With education, they will wake up.

So then comes the question of culture. Now as everyone else here has said, while Olaf Caroe sometimes displays great knowledge in some Pashtun matters, he also, at times, displays a lot of ignorance in other matters. His pro-Muslim League credentials don't increase his credibility either.

You know, the Turkish language used to have just as many Arabic words in it as Pashto has today. Within a generation, most of them were taken out. Similarly, Hindi used to be overwhelmingly Persian and Arabic in its vocabulary. Within a decade after its independence, India replaced almost all those terms with Sanskrit words. So I don't think the Urdufication of Peshawar will be a big issue. No matter how polluted Peshawar vernacular begins, it will always be one alterable within a single generation given that there is genuine will from the center to promote this change.

[Michin Khel]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=3]GOE I understand the ¡®jazba¡¯ for pashtun unification, the pathans of Pakistan are clearly related to pashtun of a Afghanistan, and patently different from panjabis and others.

Pohay naslu, da nakhwal kay ka safa khabara?.

Amir¡¯s sentiment however I agree with. The pashtuns of Pakistan ¨C pathans ¨C their politics and cultural influences are from Pakistan.

I also agree with amir's sentiments, out of all he is most compatible with ground realities. Lar Pashtuns in order to lead qualitative lives, had to integrate themeselves into Pakistan, there was no reason to go for isolation. As civilized people we have participated in politics of Pakistan, there was no sense in bycotting it. But i dont agree with you that our cultural influences are from Pakistan (bhangra and urdu culture). According to oxford culture is "art , literature, music and other intellectual expressions of a particular society"...our art, literature, music etc are still in pashto and are same as that of Afghanistan. Lar and bar Pashtuns still share same culture and traditions...With respect to culture we have not yet integrated into mainstream pakistani cultures i.e punjabi and urdu cultures. Our culture and pashto is intact and strong.

Many pathans speak urdu, almost none can speak dari, making it easier for reunified pathans to lean on urdu commentaries.

You are very senior person, you must have met lot of Pashtuns from Pakistan (not foriegn, only those of homeland). Tell me how many of them conversed with you in urdu instead of Pashto?..Me, shehbaz, nokia, exapazai, would be out of our minds if we talk with torkham in urdu...We know urdu, no doubt about it, but we speak it to communicate with non-pashtuns. It is a considered a very rude gesture if you are a pashto-speaker and you communicate with me in urdu. Urdu is very dry for us, we find it difficult to speak fluently and we dont speak it in homes and pashtun areas...unlike dari, in which pashtuns of afghanistan are very fluent, many speak pashto in dari tone e.g wardaks, many speak it in their homes and are bilingual in it, many pashtun singers of your country sing pashto songs in dari tone..though i have to admit they are very sweet to ears.

Now this border has separated the pathans from pashtuns of afghanistan, and allowed development of ideas and mind sets from Pakistani perspective.

I agree with you but the bolded part is bothering me. The typical arrogance and hollow superiority complex that exists in our bar pashtuns, purity complex i.e i am pure than you or my pashto is pure than you or my culture is pure
Than you, you are brainwashed punjabied pathan etc etc....who would want to stick with people of such mentality...i prefer status quo than being looked down upon.
,

during any unification, there are Pashto speakers in Khyber Pashtun Khwa who are not pashtun, who are influenced from panjabis (like Seraiki speakers and Hinkowans).

You are scared that these seraikiwans and hindkis would pollute aryan afghan race in loy afghanistan? Dont worry they are undergoing pashtunification.

Most influential is the mind set of pathans; is influenced by Pakistan. The films shown in Peshawar and Quetta are distinctly Panjabi in style, the music videos from Peshawar have a distinctly Panjabi influence, the singers from KPK, especially the girls wear Panjabi style labas, their moves are like Panjabi dancers, some verging on Mujra ¨C there is a distinct beghairati and vulgarity in the popular culture. On the flip side

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=3]I respect pathans like (to name one without prejudice) Nokia Apridi, who unremittingly adhere to pashtun values, don¡¯t get assimilated and aren¡¯t sell-outs to Pakistan either. I also respect the FATA pathans, they represent the hardcore values of pashtuns.

Thanks for slapping us hard. Why you are taking urban area of peshawer as representative of whole Pakhtunkhwa?..rural people of KP and Afghanistan are equally hardcore pashtuns...the case of urban centres like kabul and peshawer are different...and why you are equating damans with pashtuns?...these are damans who are performing these mujras...how dare you , you equate honourable pashtuns of KP with these damans...let me slap some fact into you, ever heard of word ghilam jams , the popular afghan prostitues of peshawer?
hardcore pashtun of FATA? your mohmand of mohmand agency is as much integrated into Pakistan as khalil of peshawer.
[/QUOTE]

[Michin Khel]

The loy afghanistan concept is not feasible as long as Afghanistan remains world's most poor country. Pashtuns in Pakistan, are well represented in Pakistan's power structure, particularly the Army. They have served at all levels of the Federal government, in sports and other fields. They are also well represented as far as in the business community.
Pashtuns in Pakistan are actively involved in business and trade throughout the country. On the other hand the low social status of Pashtuns in Afghanistan and their low rate of representation and literacy is a serious issue. Pashtuns in Afghanistan are treated poorly and are discriminated against by the more urban, educated Tajik and Persian speaking populations. In Afghanistan, it is impossible for a pashtun to increase his social standing without merging himself into the more influential Dari culture.

[graveyardofempires]

The loy afghanistan concept is not feasible as long as Afghanistan remains world's most poor country. Pashtuns in Pakistan, are well represented in Pakistan's power structure, particularly the Army. They have served at all levels of the Federal government, in sports and other fields. They are also well represented as far as in the business community.
According to some estimates there are 30 million Pashtuns in Pakistan while 12.5 million in Afghanistan. Pakistani Pashtuns and increase considerably Pashtuns in Pakistan are actively involved in business and trade throughout the country. On the other hand the low social status of Pashtuns in Afghanistan and their low rate of representation and literacy is a serious issue. Pashtuns in Afghanistan are treated poorly and are discriminated against by the more urban, educated Tajik and Persian speaking populations. In Afghanistan, it is impossible for a pashtun to increase his social standing without merging himself into the more influential Dari culture.

wrora come back to reality.
pashtuns are fighting the pakistani state.

and your BS about Pashtun in Afghanistan is extremely dispicable.
just beacuse we are nice doesnt mean we cant put you in your place.

let this be the warning.

[thegood]

The loy afghanistan concept is not feasible as long as Afghanistan remains world's most poor country. Pashtuns in Pakistan, are well represented in Pakistan's power structure, particularly the Army. They have served at all levels of the Federal government, in sports and other fields. They are also well represented as far as in the business community.

This is not true. Pashtuns are a low-profile community within army that are represented only in few non-elite army units. Pashtun representation in army has only been exaggerated to consolidate Pashtuns allegiance to Pakistani state. So far, there have only been two Pashtun army chiefs in Pakistan i.e., General Gul Hassan and General Wahid Kakar (even Kakar was a Hindkowan) but Pashtun share in top army cadres is inflated to emphasize Pashtuns integration into Pakistani system by stating people like Yahya Khan and Ayub Khan to be Pashtuns.

Pashtuns in Pakistan are actively involved in business and trade throughout the country. On the other hand the low social status of Pashtuns in Afghanistan and their low rate of representation and literacy is a serious issue. Pashtuns in Afghanistan are treated poorly and are discriminated against by the more urban, educated Tajik and Persian speaking populations. In Afghanistan, it is impossible for a pashtun to increase his social standing without merging himself into the more influential Dari culture.

Pashtuns are only a peripheral community as far as businesses and industries are concerned. These sectors are exclusively controlled by Punjabis and Mahajar.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

The loy afghanistan concept is not feasible as long as Afghanistan remains world's most poor country. Pashtuns in Pakistan, are well represented in Pakistan's power structure, particularly the Army. They have served at all levels of the Federal government, in sports and other fields. They are also well represented as far as in the business community.
Pashtuns in Pakistan are actively involved in business and trade throughout the country. On the other hand the low social status of Pashtuns in Afghanistan and their low rate of representation and literacy is a serious issue. Pashtuns in Afghanistan are treated poorly and are discriminated against by the more urban, educated Tajik and Persian speaking populations. In Afghanistan, it is impossible for a pashtun to increase his social standing without merging himself into the more influential Dari culture.

Come on Luffy, you know that that's not true..

In 2001, the Punjabis constituted over 71 per cent of the army. The numerical strength was reduced in later years and has been brought down to just over 57 per cent this year. A further three per cent decrease in recruitment from that province is on the cards by 2011.

The information is part of a booklet titled ‘Information Brief’, published by the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) Directorate, the official mouthpiece of the Army, released to counter the growing criticism at home and abroad over the composition of the military and the riches it has accumulated over the years, turning it into the country’s biggest corporate giant.

The booklet has also countered the figures indicating the size of the land being controlled by the army mentioned in Ayesha Siddiqa’s book, ‘Military Inc’.

Within a decade (2001-2011), the composition of Pakhtuns in the army would increase by one per cent to 14.5 per cent.

A two per cent increase will be made in the number of Sindhis bringing their total strength to 17 per cent by 2011.

The representation of Balochis, which was nil in 2001, constitutes 3.2 per cent at present. Their composition would be increased to 4 per cent by 2011.

DAWN, founded by Quaid-e-Azam Santa Claus.

So if Pakhtuns are 15.4% of Pakistan, they are currently under-represented in Punjab's armed forces.

The following is a list of Pakistani corps commanders. Can you tell me how many of them are Pashtuns? One or none?

General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani HI, Baloch — Chief of Army Staff (COAS), GHQ. (Colonel-in-Chief of the Baloch Regiment) due to retire on November 28, 2010.
General Tariq Majid, Baloch — Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC), JS HQ, Chaklala. due to retire on October 8, 2010.
Lt Gen Muhammad Masood Aslam SJ, Punjab — Commander, XI Corps, Peshawar. (Colonel Commandant of the Punjab Regiment)
Lt Gen Ahsan Azhar Hayat, AC[1] — Inspector General Training and Evaluation (IGT&E), GHQ. due to retire on April 11, 2010.
Lt Gen Nadeem Ahmad TBt, Sind — Commander, I Corps, Mangla. due to retire on April 11, 2010.
Lt Gen Sikandar Afzal, AC[2] — Commander, II Corps, Multan. due to retire on April 11, 2010.
Lt Gen Ijaz Ahmed Bakhshi, Arty[3] — Commander, IV Corps, Lahore. due to retire on April 11, 2010.
Lt Gen Khalid Shameem Wynne, Punjab — Commander, Southern Command, Quetta. due to retire on March 8, 2011.
Lt Gen Muhammad Ashraf Saleem, AD[4] — Commander, Army Air Defence Command (Comd AAD Comd), Rawalpindi. (Colonel Commandant of the Army Air Defence) due to retire on March 8, 2011.
Lt Gen Shahid Niaz, Engrs[4] — Engineer-in-Chief (E-in-C), GHQ. (Colonel Commandant of the Corps of Engineers) due to retire on March 8, 2011.
Lt Gen Muhammad Yousaf, Arty[5] — President, National Defence University (NDU), Islamabad. due to retire on March 8, 2011.
Lt Gen Syed Absar Hussain, Arty[4] — Commander, Army Strategic Forces Command (Comd ASFC), Rawalpindi due to retire on March 8, 2011.
Lt Gen Javed Zia, Punjab[6] — Adjutant General (AG), GHQ. due to retire on September 21, 2011.
Lt Gen Shujaat Zamir Dar SBt, Punjab[7] — Chairman, Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF), Wah Cantonment. due to retire on September 21, 2011.
Lt Gen Mohsin Kamal, Punjab[1] — Military Secretary (MS), GHQ. (Colonel Commandant of the Northern Light Infantry Regiment) due to retire on September 21, 2011.
Lt Gen Muhammad Asghar, Engrs[8] — Rector, National University of Sciences and Technology (NUST), Islamabad. due to retire on September 21, 2011.
Lt Gen Jamil Haider, Arty — Inspector General Arms (IG Arms), GHQ. due to retire on September 21, 2011.
Lt Gen Nadeem Taj, Punjab — Commander, XXX Corps, Gujranwala. due to retire on September 21, 2011.
Lt Gen Muhammad Rehan Burney, AMC[3] — Surgeon General/DG Medical Services (Inter-Services), GHQ. (Colonel Commandant of the Army Medical Corps) due to retire on March 24, 2012.
Lt Gen Tahir Mahmood SBt, Punjab[1] — Commander, X Corps, Rawalpindi. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
Lt Gen Shahid Iqbal, Baloch[1] — Commander, V Corps, Karachi. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
Lt Gen Tanvir Tahir, EME[1] — Inspector General Communications and IT (IG Comm&IT), GHQ. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
Lt Gen Zahid Hussain, Arty[6] — Quarter-Master General (QMG), GHQ. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
Lt Gen Ahmad Shuja Pasha, FF[1] — DG Inter-Services Intelligence (DG ISI), ISI HQ, Islamabad. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
Lt Gen Muhammad Mustafa Khan, AC[1] — Chief of General Staff (CGS), GHQ. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
Lt Gen Ayyaz Saleem Rana, AC[1] — Chairman, Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT), Taxila. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
Lt Gen Naeem Khalid Lodhi, Engrs[5] — Commander, XXXI Corps, Bahawalpur. due to retire on February 17, 2013.
Lt Gen Khalid Nawaz Khan, Baloch[5] — Commandant, Command and Staff College (Comdt C&SC), Quetta. due to retire on October 4, 2013.
Lt Gen Sardar Mahmood Ali Khan, Punjab[5] — DG Joint Staff (DG JS), JS HQ, Chaklala. due to retire on October 4, 2013.
Lt Gen Muhammad Alam Khattak TBt, FF[5] — Chief of Logistics Staff (CLS), GHQ. due to retire on October 4, 2013.
Lt Gen Shafqaat Ahmed, Punjab[5] — due to retire on October 4, 2013.

As for human development:

FATA literacy rate: 22%
Pukhtunkhwa literacy rate: 50%
Punjab literacy rate: 60%


Representation in the civil setup:

49 Federal Secretariats:

43 belong to Punjab
3 to Pukhtunkhwa

Source

The fields that Pashtuns are over-represented in are those of gatekeeping, cobbling and fruit vending.

[thegood]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=3]
Most influential is the mind set of pathans; is influenced by Pakistan. The films shown in Peshawar and Quetta are distinctly Panjabi in style, the music videos from Peshawar have a distinctly Panjabi influence, the singers from KPK, especially the girls wear Panjabi style labas, their moves are like Panjabi dancers, some verging on Mujra – there is a distinct beghairati and vulgarity in the popular culture. On the flip side I respect pathans like (to name one without prejudice) Nokia Apridi, who unremittingly adhere to pashtun values, don’t get assimilated and aren’t sell-outs to Pakistan either. I also respect the FATA pathans, they represent the hardcore values of pashtuns.

Actually, Pashto music and art in Pakistan is undergoing transformation. With the classical period of Pashto music over, new singers and singing styles have yet to take root. One problem that has arisen is that as modern media has expanded and new opportunities have arisen due to that, it has also impacted the traditional type business style of the dancing girls, who are trying to take advantage of the opportunities that new media offer. That is why one sees a glut of sub-standard music in Peshawar.

Usually, the dancing girls have low self-esteem due to the stigma attached with their profession and bring vulgarity into cultural presentation.

It also need to mention that dancing girls and professional classes are a sign of feudal phase, which is an more advanced phase compared to the tribal phase. The Peshawar Valley has feudal set up unlike FATA and Afghanistan which has tribal set up. As urbanization and modern infrastructure would expand into Afghan villages and towns, you will have the same problem.

[Michin Khel]

This is not true. Pashtuns are a low-profile community within army that are represented only in few non-elite army units. Pashtun representation in army has only been exaggerated to consolidate Pashtuns allegiance to Pakistani state. So far, there have only been two Pashtun army chiefs in Pakistan i.e., General Gul Hassan and General Wahid Kakar (even Kakar was a Hindkowan) but Pashtun share in top army cadres is inflated by including people like Yahya Khan and Ayub Khan.



Pashtuns are only a peripheral community as far as businesses and industries are concerned. These sectors are exclusively controlled by Mahajar.

I am comparing lar pashtuns with bar pashtuns...so mahajar awo punjabian ma pacha ra walawa.
According to estimates pashtuns in army make 15-20% of total. When it is exaggerated it becomes 30-40%. It is not true that pashtuns are in low ranks in army, i personally know many high rank pashtun officers in army. Last year three kiliwals of mine got selected in ISSB. 2 pashtun army chiefs out of 11 is more than enough with representation of 15% and i dont think promotions in army are on the basis of an ethnicity. And you are calling kakars as hindkowans, beware the thread starter is also kakar.
Indian mohajirs are talented and takrra people in business, give them some credits. Pashtuns have generally poor sense of business but they are working hard and many have large businesses. If you want few examples i would give you. But with this we are going off-topic, so lets stick to loy afghanistan discussion.

[thegood]

I am comparing lar pashtuns with bar pashtuns...so mahajar awo punjabian ma pacha ra walawa.
According to estimates pashtuns in army make 15-20% of total. When it is exaggerated it becomes 30-40%. It is not true that pashtuns are in low ranks in army, i personally know many high rank pashtun officers in army. Last year three kiliwals of mine got selected in ISSB. 2 pashtun army chiefs out of 11 is more than enough with representation of 15% and i dont think promotions in army are on the basis of an ethnicity. And you are calling kakars as hindkowans, beware the thread starter is also kakar.
Indian mohajirs are talented and takrra people in business, give them some credits. Pashtuns have generally poor sense of business but they are working hard and many have large businesses. If you want few examples i would give you. But with this we are going off-topic, so lets stick to loy afghanistan discussion.

No credible statistics are available yet to corroborate your claims, "Sobadar Major" saib. And in the much hyped share of Pashtuns in Pakistani army, one should also count the poorly trained and poorly armed FC.

[thegood]

One thing I should mention is that, despite the complains about the Punjabization of Peshawari Pashtuns mostly by Pashtuns of Afghanistan, Peshawar Valley is the center of hardcore Pashtun nationalism. One should take Sawabi, Charssada, and Mardan into account. Pashtun political parties are the strongest in Peshawar Valley though culturally these might not be very strong.

The Pashtuns of Afghanistan on the other hand are not very organized politically but strong culturally.

[Michin Khel]

Come on Luffy, you know that that's not true..



DAWN, founded by Quaid-e-Azam Santa Claus.

So if Pakhtuns are 15.4% of Pakistan, they are currently under-represented in Punjab's armed forces.

The following is a list of Pakistani corps commanders. Can you tell me how many of them are Pashtuns? One or none?





As for human development:

FATA literacy rate: 22%
Pukhtunkhwa literacy rate: 50%
Punjab literacy rate: 60%


Representation in the civil setup:

49 Federal Secretariats:

43 belong to Punjab
3 to Pukhtunkhwa

Source

The fields that Pashtuns are over-represented in are those of gatekeeping, cobbling and fruit vending.

I was comparing lar awo bar pashtuns. Obviously Punjabis are ahead of Pashtuns in Pakistan...punjabis are intelligent and hardworking people, they are also most developed in india. I am satisfied with overall performance of Pashtuns. Perhaps you forgot about rural sindhis, who are more in number than pashtuns but are surviving on quota...i would give you example of your qaum mina khel, they are famous for being educated and wealthy but their neighbour and cousins khoidad khel are backward as most of them have iow tendency for education and are lazy people...take example of karak which has 94% literacy rate in city and 82% literacy ratio in their rural area. Female literacy rate is 71%. Khattaks are intelligent and have progressive thinking, they are well-represented in army, beurocracy and other fields. They did'nt sit idly and they did'nt make excuse that punjabis are blocking their progress. Tell me is there any district like karak in afghanistan?. You yourself wanted to appear in CSS, if you failed it, would you blame punjabis for it?

[thegood]

Sobaidar Major Saib, Lol, Punjabis were also more intelligent than Bangalis. So they gave no representation to Bangalis in civil and military bureaucracy. That is why Bangladesh split away and Pakistan is now on the verge of collapse whereas Bangladesh is a democracy and a booming economy today.

[Michin Khel]

Sobaidar Major Saib, Lol, Punjabis were also more intelligent than Bangalis. So they gave no representation to Bangalis in civil and military bureaucracy. That is why Bangladesh split away and Pakistan is now on the verge of collapse whereas Bangladesh is a democracy and a booming economy today.

sta plaar ba sobedar major wi. We will talk about punjabis later, lets talk about descrimination of pashtuns of peshawer valley against southren districts. Lets talk about corruption of ANP. Any one living in KP is suffering due to increased corruption, people are missing days of MMA , atleast they were minimum in corruption. Now even if your in merit list, you have to buy your seat, thanks to ANP...and dont open my mouth about immoral character of ANPites...pa khpalo stargo may katali di che sharab ski awo mujray ta nasht ti awo nora low karuna kai..Punjab was top in corruption and your ANP has gifted this title to KP.

[Michin Khel]

Sobaidar Major Saib, Lol, Punjabis were also more intelligent than Bangalis. So they gave no representation to Bangalis in civil and military bureaucracy. That is why Bangladesh split away and Pakistan is now on the verge of collapse whereas Bangladesh is a democracy and a booming economy today.

Majority of beaurocrats were bengalis in 1971, most of prime ministers of pakistan before 1971 were bengalis, they themeslves had no interest in joining army like sindhis and balochs. They faced different types of discrimination related to identity and culture.

[Ghundal]

Ku

Olaf Caroe was Russophobe and didn't see British benefit in the political amalgamation of Pashtuns on either side of the durand. Second of all, Peshawar area is very different from the other parts of Pashtunkhwa, this was especially the case then, where the political and tribal divisions were very deep. Third of all, Peshawar has changed a lot with the arrival of millions of people of Afghanistan. It was once a city centre filled with non-pashtuns surrounded by Pashtun suburbs/rural areas...this is no longer the case.
Pashtuns are being culturally weakened in the urban areas simply because we have no strong political or cultural platform. Afghanistan is weak and Pashtunkhwa is political divided and just recently got some political autonomy. How can they stop the influence of urdu/hindi, farsi or english. Just flip the channels on cable television or go walk down the streets and check what media dominates.

Amir you are being a little unfair with Pashtunkhwa Pashtuns imho. ISI already has their political leverage and they got that because of a good number of sell outs on both sides of the durand line.

Pashtun political union will take a while and is dependent on many regional factors, most of which, are outside our political control.

An additional fact, one that you seemed to bypass is this: the so-called Pashtun nationalists " were never nationalists. They were/are simply secularists, disguising their objectives as nationalistic

Case in point would be ANP/pmapAchakzai supported and supports war on Afghanistan. Yesterday it was the Soviets

So it is these false nationalists who should be honest about what they want

The wars they support primarily focus on Pashtuns, but these false nationalists don't care.

Big fact ! This is the major reason why they will always be insignificant

Perhaps others will resolve the issue, but it will not be secularists