For the Loy Afghanistan/Pashtunistan supporters....

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

“Political amalgamation, should it ever come, would take a very different shape. Peshawar would absorb Kabul, and not Kabul Peshawar...The Pathan future is not in doubt; it lies, as it has always lain, with the people of the Indus Valley” (Page 437).

- Olaf Caroe, The Pathans

Be careful what you wish for. If the border is erased tomorrow, your children will be singing the anthem in Urdu

[graveyardofempires]

Olaf Caroe?
who the **** is he and how is he relevant.
unless you know the area from internet and these types of people.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Olaf Caroe?
who the **** is he and how is he relevant.
unless you know the area from internet and these types of people.

Pakistan Pashtuns are loyal to Islamabad. They are so loyal theyll drop kick a pregnant Kochai woman from Logar just to prepare Kashmiri chai for General Baig.

At best, they pay lip service to Pashtun nationalism to extort concessions from Islamabad, thats it.

On the flip side, Kabul has for years used Pashtuns in Pakistan for their own purpose (consolidating Durrani rule in Afghanistan, and Pashtunization of Afghanistan)

Self serving elites and leaders on both sides have killed this concept of Loy Afghanistan/Pashtunistan

Best to let it lie in the dust bin of history

[graveyardofempires]

Pakistan Pashtuns are loyal to Islamabad. They are so loyal theyll drop kick a pregnant Kochai woman from Logar just to prepare Kashmiri chai for General Baig.

At best, they pay lip service to Pashtun nationalism to extort concessions from Islamabad, thats it.

On the flip side, Kabul has for years used Pashtuns in Pakistan for their own purpose (consolidating Durrani rule in Afghanistan, and Pashtunization of Afghanistan)

Self serving elites and leaders on both sides have killed this concept of Loy Afghanistan/Pashtunistan

Best to let it lie in the dust bin of history

not really.

thats just your point of view backed up by 0.001% atheist pashtuns.
is this what you tell them at the think tank,its plain wrong.

even if some pashtuns call themselves pakistani are still in with the muslim card which means they can unite as muslims as well.



many Pashtuns dont even recognise the border and cross at will.
its an extreme exageration to say all pashtun's alliance is with Islamabad.
there are many who are fighting islamabad and many who are kept under the spel of ignorance,not knowing their history etc.

but


i do understand your view and position,you were born in canada assimilated to the candadian society and known Pashtun from the internet and books written by brits and other biased sources.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

not really.

thats just your point of view backed up by 0.001% atheist pashtuns.
is this what you tell them at the think tank,its plain wrong.

even if some pashtuns call themselves pakistani are still in with the muslim card which means they can unite as muslims as well.



many Pashtuns dont even recognise the border and cross at will.
its an extreme exageration to say all pashtun's alliance is with Islamabad.
there are many who are fighting islamabad and many who are kept under the spel of ignorance,not knowing their history etc.

but


i do understand your view and position,you were born in canada assimilated to the candadian society and known Pashtun from the internet and books written by brits and other biased sources.

When the ISI burns down your village, think of the Amir..not his hair or face, those thoughts belong to the peghlas of your village, rather think of his words of caution

[یاسمینه]

@ Amir al Ghaznavi - the body of The Pathans was written in 1958, based on Caroe's earlier experience. So some of his thoughts do not fit to the situation in which Pashtuns are now, after 30 years of war and after the largest exodus in modern history. He wrote down history of Pashtuns and no one can deprive him of this merits, but I think that his poin of view was a little skewed by British colonialism.

@ GOE - you tend to underestimate what Westerners say/write about Pashtuns. And you tend to forget that most of things written about Pashtuns (by Westerners) come from Pashtuns. Caroe did a grat job describing the history of Pashtuns but some of his comments are no longer valid.

[graveyardofempires]

@ GOE - you tend to underestimate what Westerners say/write about Pashtuns. And you tend to forget that most of things written about Pashtuns (by Westerners) come from Pashtuns. Caroe did a grat job describing the history of Pashtuns but some of his comments are no longer valid.

i dont underestimate but i see them being biased like the mainstream media of today.

you say most of what those westerners wrote comes from pashtuns,than im wondering what kind of Pashtuns were they,were they servants of the british raj?
for example the writer calls pashtun/pukhtun as pathan which is biased and historically incorrect which makes me doubt the rest of his story.

i dont trust close to many foreign sources about Afghan history

[یاسمینه]

@GOE - Caroe was a member of the Indian Civil Service during long time and mabe he was more familiar with the name Pathans than Pashtuns...

I know a lot of stories about Pashtuns, and I know them from 100% pure Pashtuns living and strugling in Afghanistan. And somehow I am sure you would deny some of them because they don't fit to your vision of Pashtuns and Afghanistan.

[graveyardofempires]

@GOE - Caroe was a member of the Indian Civil Service during long time and mabe he was more familiar with the name Pathans than Pashtuns...

I know a lot of stories about Pashtuns, and I know them from 100% pure Pashtuns living and strugling in Afghanistan. And somehow I am sure you would deny some of them because they don't fit to your vision of Pashtuns and Afghanistan.

Olaf was part of the british raj in india and getting the name wrong means he was wrong.

what do you mean 100% pashtuns?and what kidn fo stories?

do you knwo that people in afghanistan espacillay Pashtuns will not express their true view infront of a foreigner thinking they might snitch them to the nearest base?


anyway,i trust you more than Olaf as Olaf was part of an empire which tried to subdue pashtuns and than he dares to write pashtun history and call them pathans.

[Ghundal]

In Pakistan, Pashtuns are frequently termed as terrorists and backwards by elitist Pakistani society. However, amongst poor Pakistanis ( non Pashtuns) this view is not held. An example would be Hina Khar blaming Afghan refugees who live in Pashtun land for problems of crime- crIme which is in fact committed by Punjabis or Sindhis.

Pashtuns in Pakistan are benefitting from the education system. Once there is a free and independent Afghanistan which is economically strong, they will want to raise the issue of Durrand line

Unfortunately for now, I have to say that many Pashtuns in Peshawar have absorbed into Pakistani society. Some don't even know their tribes

This is a growing problem but not too widespread

Once there is a free, independent, and strong Afghanistan, it's a different story

[یاسمینه]

anyway,i trust you more than Olaf as Olaf was part of an empire which tried to subdue pashtuns and than he dares to write pashtun history and call them pathans.

Wow, that sounds like compliment... thank you

Seriously, my country isn't innocent in Afghan context either. Poland, in the context of Afghanistan, has adopted the American raison d'etat, for which I am ashamed. Do you know that in PL have been the CIA prisons, where Afghans are "interrogated".
Even yesterday my Pashtun friend was sorry for 5 Polish troops killed in Afghanistan. And I told him off. It was tragedy in human sense. But... what were they doing there???

[graveyardofempires]

Wow, that sounds like compliment... thank you

Seriously, my country isn't innocent in Afghan context either. Poland, in the context of Afghanistan, has adopted the American raison d'etat, for which I am ashamed. Do you know that in PL have been the CIA prisons, where Afghans are "interrogated".
Even yesterday my Pashtun friend was sorry for 5 Polish troops killed in Afghanistan. And I told him off. It was tragedy in human sense. But... what were they doing there???

you deserve the compliment.

I dont hold you responsible for what the polish government does.

just today on Afghan news ive heard that Poland is helping with construction in Afghansitan.

Why would Poland help in reconstrcutions while Poland itself is impoverished and alot of its people are moving towards west Europe as i see many here.

so there must be some catch to it all.

I appreciate your interest in Pashto and your humanity towards Afghans.

[Dirojay Afghan]

This book of olaf caroe was commissioned by the pakistan government.So it is very easy to understand why he wrote what he wrote.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Olaf Caroe was Russophobe and didn't see British benefit in the political amalgamation of Pashtuns on either side of the durand. Second of all, Peshawar area is very different from the other parts of Pashtunkhwa, this was especially the case then, where the political and tribal divisions were very deep. Third of all, Peshawar has changed a lot with the arrival of millions of people of Afghanistan. It was once a city centre filled with non-pashtuns surrounded by Pashtun suburbs/rural areas...this is no longer the case.
Pashtuns are being culturally weakened in the urban areas simply because we have no strong political or cultural platform. Afghanistan is weak and Pashtunkhwa is political divided and just recently got some political autonomy. How can they stop the influence of urdu/hindi, farsi or english. Just flip the channels on cable television or go walk down the streets and check what media dominates.

Amir you are being a little unfair with Pashtunkhwa Pashtuns imho. ISI already has their political leverage and they got that because of a good number of sell outs on both sides of the durand line.

Pashtun political union will take a while and is dependent on many regional factors, most of which, are outside our political control.

[torkham]

GOE I understand the ‘jazba’ for pashtun unification, the ‘pathans’ of Pakistan are clearly related to pashtun of a Afghanistan, and patently different from panjabis and others.


Amir I think Olaf Carroe is modern orientalist and product of colonialism and his books about pashtun are comprehensive – like the book of pashtun tribes, but his references are tinged with British Indian biases.

Yasmeenah is correct about the dated opinion, since in modern times Afghanistan only became prominent in media during the Russian invasion, and despite the exposure western opinion of afghans is still inaccurate, so is Olaf Carroe's opinion which is even older.


Amir’s sentiment however I agree with. The pashtuns of Pakistan – pathans – their politics and cultural influences are from Pakistan. Many pathans speak urdu, almost none can speak dari, making it easier for reunified pathans to lean on urdu commentaries. Language is not the only reason I agree with Amir’s sentiment; the dubious border was drawn over a century ago. Emir Abdul Rahman was supposedly duped when signing an agreement with the British, written in English*.


Now this border has separated the pathans from pashtuns of afghanistan, and allowed development of ideas and mind sets from Pakistani perspective.

Then, during any unification, there are Pashto speakers in Khyber Pashtun Khwa who are not pashtun, who are influenced from panjabis (like Seraiki speakers and Hinkowans).


Most influential is the mind set of pathans; is influenced by Pakistan. The films shown in Peshawar and Quetta are distinctly Panjabi in style, the music videos from Peshawar have a distinctly Panjabi influence, the singers from KPK, especially the girls wear Panjabi style labas, their moves are like Panjabi dancers, some verging on Mujra – there is a distinct beghairati and vulgarity in the popular culture. On the flip side I respect pathans like (to name one without prejudice) Nokia Apridi, who unremittingly adhere to pashtun values, don’t get assimilated and aren’t sell-outs to Pakistan either. I also respect the FATA pathans, they represent the hardcore values of pashtuns.


The whole reunification is meritable however frought with issues. It happened with Germany. Transfer the concept to pashtunistan and Afghanistan, you have plenty to deal with. I guess it is an inevitable pain of getting together after a long separation, you grow to become different people united by language, that’s is it . . . .


Bottom line is I like to see pashtuns united if the land occupied by British India is returned to Afghanistan, which isn't imminent and will take a lot of time if the mood was for returning land.


*as observed by Wahid Momand on Afghanland.com