Militant Communists responsbile for Afghanistan wars

[thetruth]

Oke "mr. know it al" whith out any sources that we can check.
Can you also explain why the communist did the above actions.

I was not aware that historical facts were up for debate. This is taking tin foil hat wearing to a whole new level.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7764852.stm

Body of Afghan leader identified


Mr Khan will be remembered as a reformer

The body of first Afghan President Mohammad Daud Khan has been identified three decades after he was killed in a Communist coup, officials say.
The discovery was made by members of a government-appointed commission during excavation at a military base outside the capital, Kabul.
Daud Khan overthrew the last king of Afghanistan, Zahir Shah, in 1973.
His death five years later ushered in a decade of Soviet occupation followed by the rise of the Taleban.
The former president is to be given a special funeral ceremony by the government.
Teeth moulds
A spokesman for the Ministry of Health told the Associated Press news agency that the former president's body was among dozens discovered at two mass graves in the Pul-e-Charkhi area, east of Kabul, six months ago.
The spokesman said that Mr Khan and 17 family members and associates were executed inside the presidential palace in Kabul during a communist-inspired coup in 1978.
He said that teeth moulds were used to identify the late president's body but the determining factor was a small golden Koran that was found with his remains.
"This Koran was given to him as a gift by the king of Saudi Arabia when he went on a trip to the kingdom," the spokesman said.
Correspondents say that many Afghans see Mr Khan's murder as one of their country's darkest days, because it was followed by 10 years of Soviet occupation, civil war and the rise of the Taleban, who themselves were toppled by US-led troops in 2001.
It is estimated that about two million people have been killed since the 1978 coup and more than six million have fled the country.
Mr Khan is remembered for his efforts to counter the influence of Islamists and for establishing a republic. He introduced wide ranging reforms and towards the end of his life favoured relations with the West over the Soviet Union.

[Soldat_Amir]

I find it quite amusing those Truth is trying to say Secularists killed peoples families.

Ahem, can Truth educate us on how many people were killed during the civil war by his Islamist buddies, during the Taliban rule and at present?

What happened in Kabul, Mazar Sharif?

MUjahideen did not defend Afghanistan, they opened it up for Pakistanis and Americans to meddle there and exploit it! and thats a fact I have written so much about.

[thetruth]

^Im not saying it. It is in the historical record buddy.

I said that Daud Khan like Zulfiqar Bhutto, another secularist, was moving closer to Muslim nations. How does that translate into Daud Khan was an Islamist? But this is not the debate or point of this thread, but to point towards the troubles started by the Militant Secularists/Communists who killed and murdered Daud Khan and his entire family because Daud Khan was not secular enough for them.

He was not secular enough for the Militant Secularists who then killed him and his family. I guess they wanted someone like Elton John to lead them?

Historical fact buddy, not fantasy stories. Militant Secularists/Communists killed Daud Khan and had their Communist Revolution

I was not aware that historical facts were up for debate. This is taking tin foil hat wearing to a whole new level.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7764852.stm

Body of Afghan leader identified


Mr Khan will be remembered as a reformer

The body of first Afghan President Mohammad Daud Khan has been identified three decades after he was killed in a Communist coup, officials say.
The discovery was made by members of a government-appointed commission during excavation at a military base outside the capital, Kabul.
Daud Khan overthrew the last king of Afghanistan, Zahir Shah, in 1973.
His death five years later ushered in a decade of Soviet occupation followed by the rise of the Taleban.
The former president is to be given a special funeral ceremony by the government.
Teeth moulds
A spokesman for the Ministry of Health told the Associated Press news agency that the former president's body was among dozens discovered at two mass graves in the Pul-e-Charkhi area, east of Kabul, six months ago.
The spokesman said that Mr Khan and 17 family members and associates were executed inside the presidential palace in Kabul during a communist-inspired coup in 1978.
He said that teeth moulds were used to identify the late president's body but the determining factor was a small golden Koran that was found with his remains.
"This Koran was given to him as a gift by the king of Saudi Arabia when he went on a trip to the kingdom," the spokesman said.
Correspondents say that many Afghans see Mr Khan's murder as one of their country's darkest days, because it was followed by 10 years of Soviet occupation, civil war and the rise of the Taleban, who themselves were toppled by US-led troops in 2001.
It is estimated that about two million people have been killed since the 1978 coup and more than six million have fled the country.
Mr Khan is remembered for his efforts to counter the influence of Islamists and for establishing a republic. He introduced wide ranging reforms and towards the end of his life favoured relations with the West over the Soviet Union.

[akbarkhan]

I actually feel sorry for him. He is plagued with insecurity, identity crisis, and an inferiority complex, looking up to degenerate cultures, and down on superior ones.

He tries to paint a picture of Pashtuns as pagans and secular - a picture that does not exist.

He is a victim of Rand Corps social engineering. I don't know if you recall but a few years back Zalmai Qalilzad's wife wrote a paper at Rand Corp., which basically stated that the best way of getting rid of Islam is to socially engineer people convincing them that they were a proud people before Islam. She went as far as stating that US should create fake historical artefacts and guide people to unearth them and by doing so they will be convinced that they were a better and more accomplished society before Islam.

With the likes of this Soldat guy, there is another problem. Most often you will find that people like him are the off springs of hardcore Khalqites and Parchamites. Their father had a dream, a dream that was shattered, a dream that was so dear to them that they can never get over it. These people have indoctrinated their kids i.e. soldat persuading them that communism and secularism was the right course of life for Afghanistan. By twisting the current narrative they have given birth to a new generation of lost youth who would accept anything but Islam.

If you ask these kids what Pashunwali is about, they will probably copy and paste some stuff from Wikipedia, they have no idea what Pashtunwali is and why our forefathers converted to Islam.

[thetruth]

He is a victim of Rand Corps social engineering. I don't know if you recall but a few years back Zalmai Qalilzad's wife wrote a paper at Rand Corp., which basically stated that the best way of getting rid of Islam is to socially engineer people convincing them that they were a proud people before Islam. She went as far as stating that US should create fake historical artefacts and guide people to unearth them and by doing so they will be convinced that they were a better and more accomplished society before Islam.

With the likes of this Soldat guy, there is another problem. Most often you will find that people like him are the off springs of hardcore Khalqites and Parchamites. Their father had a dream, a dream that was shattered, a dream that was so dear to them that they can never get over it. These people have indoctrinated their kids i.e. soldat persuading them that communism and secularism was the right course of life for Afghanistan. By twisting the current narrative they have given birth to a new generation of lost youth who would accept anything but Islam.

If you ask these kids what Pashunwali is about, they will probably copy and paste some stuff from Wikipedia, they have no idea what Pashtunwali is and why our forefathers converted to Islam.

True, Zalmai Qalilzad, his son goes by the name Alexander Bernard (i think, not sure on the last name, but he takes a Saxon one).

I am perplexed though here. There is no question that Daud Khan was a moderate secularist, but for NokiaNWN, Soldat, and Afghan21 to say that Mujahideen were behind the assassination of Daud Khan is beyond insanity and goes against the historical record which shows that militant communists killed Daud Khan and his family. This is a mere fact, not a fantasy made up by Hamid Gul.

The point I have made is that the troubles of Afghanistan start with the militant communist activity. This activity culminated with Communist assassination of him. This is the start point of all these wars.

I have pointed to historical fact, not fantasy, that Daud Khan was moving Afghanistan closer to Islamic nations (Islam only in name). I can only guess that that would have been better. No where am I saying that Daud Khan was hand in hand with the religious clergy.

These militant communists/secularists did not even want that- so they killed Daud Khan.

[akbarkhan]

True, Zalmai Qalilzad, his son goes by the name Alexander Bernard (i think, not sure on the last name, but he takes a Saxon one).

I am perplexed though here. There is no question that Daud Khan was a moderate secularist, but for NokiaNWN, Soldat, and Afghan21 to say that Mujahideen were behind the assassination of Daud Khan is beyond insanity and goes against the historical record which shows that militant communists killed Daud Khan and his family. This is a mere fact, not a fantasy made up by Hamid Gul.

The point I have made is that the troubles of Afghanistan start with the militant communist activity. This activity culminated with Communist assassination of him. This is the start point of all these wars.

I have pointed to historical fact, not fantasy, that Daud Khan was moving Afghanistan closer to Islamic nations (Islam only in name).

These militant communists/secularists did not even want that- so they killed Daud Khan.

Here is the funny thing with these commies, they blame everything on ISI because they suffer from intellectual laziness. What they tend to overlook is their fathers' association with KGB and the shoe polishing and crack licking they had to do back in the Soviet days.

Perhaps they need a wake up call, to be honest, wake up calls don't do it for them - they need a few chapals shoved up there to realize that regardless of which foreign intelligence agency one conspires with, it is still treason, doesn't matter whether it is the ISI, CIA, Mossad or KGB.

Regarding Daud Khan, Afghans sing praises of this man but the historical fact, and as you rightly mentioned, is that communists laid the foundation of social and political disintegration in Afghanistan. It was their politicburo inspired policies that divided Afghanistan along ethnic lines which eventually the way and brought unprecedented misfortunes.

It is these commies who are the real traitors, the ibn ul wakht types who are marxists, democrats, secularists, depending on who is calling the shots.

[AFG21]

you steel didn't explain to me way the communist did the things that you mentioned and not just killing Daud.

[badmash_khel]

Millitant fake communists, oppurtunists, fake mullahs and mujahideen, theives, and other criminals with their foreign friends are all responsible for this mess. its not just one party.

[thetruth]

Here is the funny thing with these commies, they blame everything on ISI because they suffer from intellectual laziness. What they tend to overlook is their fathers' association with KGB and the shoe polishing and crack licking they had to do back in the Soviet days.

Perhaps they need a wake up call, to be honest, wake up calls don't do it for them - they need a few chapals shoved up there to realize that regardless of which foreign intelligence agency one conspires with, it is still treason, doesn't matter whether it is the ISI, CIA, Mossad or KGB.

Regarding Daud Khan, Afghans sing praises of this man but the historical fact, and as you rightly mentioned, is that communists laid the foundation of social and political disintegration in Afghanistan. It was their politicburo inspired policies that divided Afghanistan along ethnic lines which eventually the way and brought unprecedented misfortunes.

It is these commies who are the real traitors, the ibn ul wakht types who are marxists, democrats, secularists, depending on who is calling the shots.

I think after this chapter closes, they will be purged from Afghanistan. The reason this needs to be examined, is people need to see the start point, and it only leads to these militant communists/secularists. What is absurd that for so long they have touted this story that the Mujahideen were in fact some foreign invention that was secretly supplanted upon the Afghan people when all facts indicate that it was actually them who were supplanting foreign ideology upon Afghans.

Historical facts for other readers who pretend they dont know, so I have to constantly rewrite it. After the Soviets were defeated, the Mujahideen then started fighting each other, and it was obvious that there were many problematic figures there too. This then ushered the rise of the Taliban- a reaction to all that crime that took place. Had there been peace, there would be no Taliban.
'
There would have not been a Sayaf, Gulbuddin, Masood, and Rabbani had there not been a Taraki, Karmal, and Najib. There would have not been a Wazir Akbar Khan has there not been a Shah Shuja. Basically, reactionaries will always rise up to foreign invasion whether it be by Russia or America.

The Taliban is back today because of people like Karzai, the modern version of Shah Shuja.

In regards to Daud Khan, in no way am I endorsing him as some savior of Afghanistan as such. I am just pointing out that had Afghanistan been left alone by the subversive actions of these militant communists, the situation would have not spiraled out of control like it did. We would have not had these wars.

There will always be a reaction to an action.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You are just white washing one side of the conflict to support your claim that the Taliban were righteous and good.

You first start your comment by saying justifying Maladanis killings of innocent little girls by pointing the figures at the "forced education" program. Afghans need forced education, its the only way they will come out of the backward society and the lazyiness lifestyle they enjoy.

Then you go onto highlighting all these Western claims of how bad the communists/secularists were, but fail to mention how evil and twisted the mujdahideen were, how they bombed kabul with rockets, and how they killed looted and then started killing themselves.

Then you go onto calling Christian civilisations as bad etc etc, but live happy in one in America.

Bacha Bazi, was well known within the Taliban, Communistsm would of rid this from Afghan society, but they failed to do so, because the society itself enjoys playing with little boys. Taliban never stopped it, Taliban themselves enjoy a bit of boy love.

Why do you post a video of a dancing tranny as a way to insult my political views?

Shall I post the videos about Islamic sex slavery, the harems, the white women sold on the markets of the Islamic empire? How, Islamic laws allowed the purchase of sex slaves?

Tit for tat, if the Secular world was so bad, then you wouldnt be living in America Barakzai, you would be in Saudi or probably Somalia.

Your trying to paint Afghan society and especially Pashtuns in a very dim picture, because you have motives for it.

The radicalisation was not due to Communism, it was due to Pakistan/CIA meddling, they could never see progress in Afghanistan.

Brother,

There is no commentary in my post on the individual character or justice of western civilization.

The post, which you did not rebut with any evidence, except just a repitition of claims (i.e. you provided no answer to the video evidence cited, the textual evidence cited). That doesnt make it right. For instance... **** Cheney repeating again and again that Saddam has nukes doesnt make it true. It just makes it a repetative claim.

Moreover, forced education is one thing, but interventionalists who studied and were indoctrinated in moscow or under Ataturk attempting to foolishly hoist something on a people is nonsensical. But I am glad you admit it was forced.

Regarding Maldani, no one absolved him of the wrong. The issue here is that the response was to the intervention that was done in a completely incorrect way. You also failed to account for his being involved avidly and DIRECTLY in the Karzai government. So on the one hand... he's the tail of the devil... yet on the other hand, your race horse (Mr. Karzai) is willing to have him on board?

Regarding Muj atrocities... absolutely, I maintain 100% that the atrocities they committed in and around Kandahar gave rise and made fertile the chance for the Taliban to move in.

But the bottom line that you have still not PROVEN in regard to the quote above is the sequence of events that all historians quoted above have vouched for (None ISI or Pakistani based) which is:
Communists attempted land reforms and social reforms that were unacceptable to the Afghan populace (see video evidence above of Afghan Army rebelling and undergoing mutiny) ---> Muj arose in this set up ---> Communists and Muj committ atrocities

In Amanullahs time, his and Tarzai's forced new norms were also utilized by his enemies... i.e. he knew very well that his conservative people in the countryside did not want it done his way.

In every situation, you have magically blamed Pakistan, the British, etc. and not even addressed a single failing or possible character flaw you have seen in the communist approach.

Regarding Christian civilizations being bad, no one stated they were bad. It was an EVIDENCE based answer to your claim regarding Muslims and jihadists committing the disproportionate number of killings. In actuality, it was the communist revolutionaries who brought the killing to Afghanistan with their foolish, unwelcomed intervention, dependence on russian aid, and then call for open russian military might intervention. The reference shows clearly that Athiestic civilizations have committed a disproportionate number of savage massacres as well. That is a fact you have not dealt with.

Regarding the ISI and the CIA, you need to find a new reason... that doesnt work for everything. On the one hand, you say that Bhutto and the ISI killed Dauod and the communists were saintly... yet on the other hand, Najibullah took care of Mortaza Bhutto for years and allowed him to hijack Pakistani airplaines.

Regarding Bacha Bazi. You are wrong, the evidence speaks for itself and najibullah quereshi documented it. So now, the burden of proof is on you to rebut this claim. Its backed by the Gaurdian as well.

Regarding living in the West... thats a standard cop out response when confronted with incontrovertable fact. It doesnt meet the need anywhere or anymore and is seen as a canard. It also doesnt answer the evidence based criticism above.

If one accepts your premise about living in the West, then the question bounces to you:

1) You advocate the Karzai regime so avidly. Please go live under it now. Please, no excuses, serve in the ANA. Accept the same pay the Afghan soldiers do.
2) You advocate communism, but live in the secular capitalistic west. Secularism departs from communism in its ideology by the way. Secularism does not comment on abrogation of religion. Your chosen ideology, communism calls for a purge of it. Please go move to china, vietnam, cambodia, or cuba.
3) Regarding Saudi and Somalia, they, as you certainly know are situations where the US is actively involved. In Saudi, the US funded Shah Saud and he killed the Ikhwan that brought him to power in the first place when he proposed allowing Britishers and Americans to harvest oil. In Somalia, the US is actively funding Ethiopians and other African nations to invade and destabilize it as well. So each and every failed state currently is a failure that falls at your door step, not mine.

So i advise, you leave Britainia at once and move to China, Vietnam, North Korea etc. As the states and foreign ideologies you propose to hoist on Afghans are ones you are unwilling to live under.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What amuses me is that you think that Daud Khan was a proper muslim who fought for Islam. Oh please did you see his pictures, and pictures of his wive and family. A bald beardles man who alway wore Western clothes, whith a wife that dressed in clothes were you could see her legs in public. Do you think he wanted Sharia, his laws and reforms were also secular. Almost al of the Afghan kings and his family members were secular oriented, for them Islam was something of cultural thing. But you are to dum to understand that.

And you say again, that communist and secularist did everything bad. Secularist and communist were the reaction of 100 of years Islamic governing were peopel were poor and uneducated, its not the other way around. Becuase of the underdevolpment and poverty peopel came in resistance. The educated elite saw our neigbours building citys and economy growing. If you went in the 70 to Iran it looked like Europe, meanwhile Afghanistan looked like a country that steal was in the dark ages. Its the fault of Mullahs and extremist like you and your taliban lovers that we are in this condition, you opressed modernesation and now we are weak and poor and veryone is doing what they want whith us.

Thats historically inaccurate. You havent studied the history of America or the other great nations to see their rises and falls. In each case of a super power rising, there was no forced program of change on the indigenous people. I am happy you agree that the rural masses did not want these things enforced on them. The educated elites themselves were not as educated as you might think. Take Iran for example... its an ideal example of human response and how it works. The Americans went in and removed Mossadegh in the 50s and put him under house arrest and installed the Shah of Iran. The Shah brutalized his people and even used the nation's wealth for fancy and elaborate parties:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,500_y...Persian_Empire

This breeded discontent in the masses. Professor Jerade of Vanderbilt noted that nearly 100% of the iranian population was unhappy with the Shah's supposed reforms.

So basically, what this shows is that people have to progress on their own. No one can hold a gun to a man's head and say: you MUST send your daughter to school. You MUST adhere to this new way of life.

I have met men whose sisters were given in trade for a solla because of tribal war. These men are now educated today and are educating their daughters because they saw these situations and said: Never again... my daughter will not be treated like my sister. In this same way... if the kalaay mishr sends his daughter to school, people may laugh, people may say whatever they want about his daughter's morality... but when people see the returns to that household and how education lifts people up... and when they see every other household getting ahead, they will come to this conclusion on their own.

Things take time to be stabile. Forced change always creates blowback.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What amuses me is that you think that Daud Khan was a proper muslim who fought for Islam. Oh please did you see his pictures, and pictures of his wive and family. A bald beardles man who alway wore Western clothes, whith a wife that dressed in clothes were you could see her legs in public. Do you think he wanted Sharia, his laws and reforms were also secular. Almost al of the Afghan kings and his family members were secular oriented, for them Islam was something of cultural thing. But you are to dum to understand that.

And you say again, that communist and secularist did everything bad. Secularist and communist were the reaction of 100 of years Islamic governing were peopel were poor and uneducated, its not the other way around. Becuase of the underdevolpment and poverty peopel came in resistance. The educated elite saw our neigbours building citys and economy growing. If you went in the 70 to Iran it looked like Europe, meanwhile Afghanistan looked like a country that steal was in the dark ages. Its the fault of Mullahs and extremist like you and your taliban lovers that we are in this condition, you opressed modernesation and now we are weak and poor and veryone is doing what they want whith us.

Also you and I both know its more complex than this. Soraya Tarzai and her father had spent a lot of time in Turkey. And you and I both know the kalaay wrorra. If I go to the kalaay right now, and I go house to house telling the people in Afghanistan: Hey guys, guess what... in America, girls can actually do very monetarily fruitful and very powerful fields like dermatology and still maintain hayaa and still be very feminine.. so send your daughters to medical school... and by the way they should learn to use this computer program and that computer program.... the kalaay people would look at me and say: Ok, as a doctor if you are here to treat our illnesses, thats your job... its not your job to tellus you are better than us and to be arrogant to us and tell us how our lives need to be run. They certainly would feel this way about any completely foreign ideal like this. So these folks should have used their heads as well. There are ways that these things get done, but not like that where all of a sudden, when you dont even have all the support of the womenfolk, you decide you will impose certain new marriage laws and limitations.

Its the same way with the Americans. Here for isntance, their health care spending and ideas are causing a huge deficit and massive spending to occur. Yet American patients are known for demanding hotel style treatment in the hospital. There are medically unncessarily tests that their government is forced to put on the taxpayer's back. However, when Obama tried to deal with these healthcare issues, the American people were roused to rebel against these changes because they were told that this outsider secret closet Muslim president was trying to put changes in place that would force Americans towards socialism.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What amuses me is that you think that Daud Khan was a proper muslim who fought for Islam. Oh please did you see his pictures, and pictures of his wive and family. A bald beardles man who alway wore Western clothes, whith a wife that dressed in clothes were you could see her legs in public. Do you think he wanted Sharia, his laws and reforms were also secular. Almost al of the Afghan kings and his family members were secular oriented, for them Islam was something of cultural thing. But you are to dum to understand that.

And you say again, that communist and secularist did everything bad. Secularist and communist were the reaction of 100 of years Islamic governing were peopel were poor and uneducated, its not the other way around. Becuase of the underdevolpment and poverty peopel came in resistance. The educated elite saw our neigbours building citys and economy growing. If you went in the 70 to Iran it looked like Europe, meanwhile Afghanistan looked like a country that steal was in the dark ages. Its the fault of Mullahs and extremist like you and your taliban lovers that we are in this condition, you opressed modernesation and now we are weak and poor and veryone is doing what they want whith us.

Btw I agree with you about Daoud. I dont think any of the Muhammadzai kabul court were really inclined towards Islam as the rural people were. However, it is fact that the communists sanctioned his killing. The fact that every single failure that goes wrong in Afghanistan is attributed to the ISI and the CIA is as bad as what Soldat is saying Muslims do with Jews, which is to blame them for all their problems.

[abassinafghan]

the lie

do you have cognitive problems ? can you read ?

what is your point ?

moving afghanistan closer to islamic nations ? excuse me which islamic nation ? pakistan ? iran ? saudi arabia ?

do we have to ask now the roll chor , which eats british and american **** for decades to teach us islam and truly islamic state , mean while their country is occupied by american french and english soldiers for decades , but now one realize it , because no one care .

or pakistan ?


facts are ,that your non islamic napak friends interacted in our internal affairs even before on single soviet soldier was in afghanistan .

and no the "jahad " was not a response to the soviet intervention but a plan which was workout before , brenzinski admitted this in several interviews , and their are lot of afghan sources which clearly show , that this invasion was provoked by the americans thrue the so called mujahedin and the isi.

so what is your point ? do you want that every ones admitts that its all the "commies " fault and that the ones who are now sitting in kabul are all inocent and for nothing responsibel ???

grow up my child .

and to all non afghans ,especially the ones have the muslim muslim talk .

why is there no sharia in your country and why your people commit so much shirk and kufr ?

[akbarkhan]

Btw I agree with you about Daoud. I dont think any of the Muhammadzai kabul court were really inclined towards Islam as the rural people were. However, it is fact that the communists sanctioned his killing. The fact that every single failure that goes wrong in Afghanistan is attributed to the ISI and the CIA is as bad as what Soldat is saying Muslims do with Jews, which is to blame them for all their problems.

Being one of the insiders, I can tell you that the house of Mohammadzai/Barakzai had nothing to do with Islam, not even remotely. I know people who slept with their servants and had no concept of fornication. In fact, I know people who had kids by way of fornication yet they had no concept of what it meant - to some extent.

And ill-faithed bunch, a despicable house that bartered the honour of Afghans in return for lowly gains. Even the last one of them had to do his pimpwork before he passed away, yes i am referring to the traitor of nation, King of Gulkhanas, Zahir Shah.