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  • US Killed Over 1,500 Afghan Civilians in 10 Months

    WASHINGTON - U.S. Special Operations Forces (SOF) killed well over 1,500 civilians in night raids in less than 10 months in 2010 and early 2011, analysis of official statistics on the raids released by the U.S.-NATO command reveals.

    That number would make U.S. night raids by far the largest cause of civilian casualties in the war in Afghanistan. The report by the U.N. Assistance Mission in Afghanistan on civilian casualties in 2010 had said the use of Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) by insurgents was the leading cause of civilian deaths, with 904.

    Except for a relatively few women and children killed by accident, the civilians who died in the raids were all adult males who were counted as insurgents in press releases and official data released by the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF).

    The data on night raids, which were given to selected news media, cover three distinct 90-day night raid campaigns from May through July 2010, early August to early November, and mid-November to mid- February. The combined totals for the three periods indicate that a minimum of 2,599 rank and file insurgents were killed and an additional 723 "leaders" killed or captured in raids. [See Sidebar].

    Assuming conservatively that one-third of the alleged leaders were killed, the total number of alleged insurgents killed in the raids was 2,844.

    SOF night raids during the 10-month period totaled 6,282, according to the same ISAF data.

    A third crucial statistic, repeated frequently by U.S and NATO officials in 2010 and 2011, is that shots were fired by SOF units in only 20 percent of night raids.

    A U.S. military source who has been briefed on SOF operation confirmed to IPS what has been generally known among outside observers – that anytime shots are fired by SOF troops in a night raid, someone is killed.

    If shots were fired in 20 percent of the 6,282 raids, it means that 2,844 were killed in 1,256 raids.

    With very rare exceptions, night raids target only individuals rather than groups. They are carried out at night because they are aimed at catching the individual at home asleep and therefore taken completely by surprise.

    Therefore, a minimum of 1,588 people (2,844 total killed minus the 1,256 targets in the lethal raids) were killed in the raids even though they weren't targeted.

    Not every one of the untargeted individuals killed in night raids was a noncombatant civilian. But the socio-cultural and physical setting of the raids guarantees that the percentage of civilians in that total is extremely high.

    Within the Afghan compounds that are the physical targets of U.S. night raids live extended family households that normally include not only the male head of family and his wife, but his brothers, sons and cousins and their families.

    In Afghanistan, every adult Pashtun male has a weapon in his home, and is obliged by the ancient code of conduct called "Pashtunwali" to defend his home, his family and his friends against armed intruders. In a typical extended family compound, several males have weapons.

    As a result, the non-targeted civilians killed in night raids have invariably been either close relatives or neighbours who have come out to assist against an armed assault.


    SOF commanders and the command and staff of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) have essentially denied all civilian deaths in night raids, except for women and children, by counting all adult males killed in raids as insurgents.

    That ISAF policy has been confirmed to IPS by a U.S. military source briefed on the operational aspects of the raids.

    ISAF has counted adult dead in raids as insurgents even when the victims held prominent positions in the Afghan government, as was the case in the Gardez night raid of Feb. 12, 2010.

    In that raid, two men who were shot dead in the targeted compound by an SOF unit when they came out of their dwellings with Kalashnikov rifles turned out to have been a district prosecutor and a local police chief. Nevertheless, ISAF reported in its press release on the raid that two insurgents had been killed.

    The killing of family members and neighbours who responded to night raids with weapons was already a major issue within the U.S. mission to Afghanistan as early as 2008, according to Matthew Hoh, who was the senior U.S. civilian official in Zabul province in 2009.

    "Pashtunwali was causing serious problems for us in the context of night raids," Hoh told IPS. "It was raised as a key issue in our training even before I went to Afghanistan."

    The problem had become so prevalent by early 2010 that Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal referred to it explicitly in his early 2010 directive on night raids, parts of which were released to the public by ISAF Mar. 5, 2010.

    McChrystal noted that the Afghan adult male had been "conditioned to respond aggressively in defense of his home and his guests whenever he perceives his home or honor threatened. In a similar situation most of us would do the same."

    McChrystal expressed regret that these "[i]nstinctive responses by an Afghan man to defend his home and family are sometimes interpreted as insurgent acts, with tragic results."

    Although a large proportion of those targeted in the estimated 1,256 lethal raids were undoubtedly Taliban insurgents, a very substantial proportion were civilians.

    Some were targeted after malicious tips by tribal and personal enemies. Others fell victim to a targeting system that is overwhelmingly dependent on electronic intelligence. Phone calls to a known insurgent are regarded as a basis for adding a cell phone number to the "kill/capture list".

    One detainee picked up in a night raid earlier this year was told by his interrogator that it was because he had made phone calls to an insurgent, IPS learned from a friend of the detainee's family.

    Hoh, who was briefed on the list, called the Joint Priority Effects List (JPEL) in 2009, told this writer that a large proportion of the targets on the list were not identifiable individuals at all, but mobile phone numbers.

    But in the Pashtun zones of Afghanistan, contacts with Taliban commanders and other Taliban figures are nearly universal, according to Michael Semple, former deputy EU representative in Afghanistan and a leading specialist on the Afghan insurgency.

    In addition, SOF commanders have begun consciously targeting individuals who were not believed to be insurgents but who were believed to have provided moral or material support, or to have intelligence information about them.

    That targeting shift, acknowledged by military officials to the authors of a recent study by the Open Society Foundations and The Liaison Office, was reflected in an 82-percent increase in the number of people seized in raids and detained briefly during the August- November campaign, compared with the May-July campaign.

    Those detainees were also counted as insurgents in the data released to the news media, despite the fact that up to 90 percent of them were released as civilians within days or months, as IPS reported last June.

    Some of those targeted civilians were killed in raids when they appeared to challenge the SOF intruders, adding to the 1,588 non- targeted individuals killed in the raids. However, estimating the additional toll of civilians is impossible.

    The ISAF Public Affairs Officer for SOF issues and officials responsible for civilian casualties monitoring at the U.N. Assistance Mission in Afghanistan did not respond to requests for comment on this article.

    Afghan human rights officials and foreign observers have suggested that fewer civilian deaths have occurred in night raids with the increasing use of the so-called "soft knock", in which Afghan personnel are used to announce the presence of the raiding party with a loudspeaker before entry into the house.

    The toll of civilians in more recent 90-day periods may well have been reduced in 2011 compared with a year earlier, as suggested by smaller numbers of alleged insurgents said to have been killed over the course of the three campaigns.

    But night raids clearly remain the overwhelmingly primary – though still unacknowledged – cause of civilian deaths in the war.

    Gareth Porter is an investigative historian and journalist specialising in U.S. national security policy. The paperback edition of his latest book, "Perils of Dominance: Imbalance of Power and the Road to War in Vietnam", was published in 2006.
    This item was first published at IPS Inter Press Service


    _______________________

    Let's wait for Soldat Amir and ScimitarXEdge to exhonart NATO by diverting our attention to the 150 suicide bombings that happened in the last 10 years.

  • #2
    I already condemned NATO attacks and war crimes for months; of which you were anxiously trying to kiss my hind quarters over and thanking my posts

    now it's the Taliban's turn to receive the same criticism for the same crimes NATO do.

    If anything this thread is a diversion from the Taliban's crimes. As if killing your own people is justified for fighting an imperial army for ...the most ironic reason ....killing your people?

    Comment


    • #3
      893669.jpg

      893680.jpg

      893682.jpg

      893684.jpgMore protests this week held in the capital city kabul , people traveled from every province to protest out side USA bases , embassy, they want USA OUT.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ScimitarXEdge View Post
        I already condemned NATO attacks and war crimes for months; of which you were anxiously trying to kiss my hind quarters over and thanking my posts

        now it's the Taliban's turn to receive the same criticism for the same crimes NATO do.

        If anything this thread is a diversion from the Taliban's crimes. As if killing your own people is justified for fighting an imperial army for ...the most ironic reason ....killing your people?
        Oh you got that right buddy.

        The Taliban flew from mars and stationed their headquarters in Pakistan. Their mission is to kill Afghans, because they are not Afghans. Wouldn't make sense to kill your own people now, does it? Not unless you are some sick psychopathic cannibal. They aren't the second generation to live through war. They have been displaced and orphaned by Afghans which is why they are always targeting civilians, intentionally. Their whole purpose is to compete with NATO to see who kills more Afghans. Because they are receiving money from Pakistan (which the pakis in turn receive from the States). Money which they use to buy condos in Dubai with. Some of those taliban even make it here to Canada and even the States and take all those millions of dollars given to them by NATO to stage a fake war, to buy properties and business. Their intention isn't to force the imperials out of the land. Sometimes by accident they target convoys when really they wanted to kill civilians.

        Oh I am so stupid..I even read it in their manual: Kill Civilians because the more civilians you kill the more the civilians will fear and respect you. And why didn't I see it all along? It's not that they reject the Karzai administration because it is set up by foreigners or that democracy is foreign and alien to Islam...they are just peeved that they weren't chosen to be the puppets. Maybe it was their beards? Maybe it was Karzai's chapan that got him where he is now?

        Damn... you are so right. It makes so much sense! There was no suicide bombings until AFTER ISAF invaded Afghanistan! Clearly these taliban are in cahots with the Imperials.

        And yeah .. you are right. The Hizb e Islami run by Hekmatyar is so much more Islamic. They NEVER killed muslims. They used to do suicide bombings but now they are OK. And Ismail Khan? He is no gangster or bully. Oh he is a saint.

        You know what dude? In the end of the day...your a halfghan. And even less than that. Go get your story right first then come preach to us.

        Comment


        • #5
          wasn't the manual like written in 09-10? Why didn't they have that Manual since 1994?

          There was no suicide bombings until the NATO? Then why did they wait until 2004 to start the Suicide bombings when Mullah Dadushaitan learned it from the dirt bag Saudi manufactured extremists in Iraq

          Your arguments are so inconsistent that their merit doesn't even need to be debunked formally.

          Comment


          • #6
            You agreed there is always a natural and legitimate resistive force that will rise up against colonizers.
            According to your faulty logic, suicide bombing delegitimizes the Taliban as that resistive force which even the colonizers recognises. So up until 2004 you were ok with them? But then Arabs and Pakistanis came along and strap bombs on themselves, because they think its cool, and the Taliban are to be blamed. Even dadullah was dismissed by Omar as a military commander.. what his faction does still represents the tacts of all taliban.

            The problem with an intellectually lazy keyboard warrior like you is that you only skim the surface of the mass media propaganda to find those titbits that reassert your delusions. Most likely the reason why the taliban made those manuals was part of their wider tact at organizing themselves and separating themselves from other factions. In 1994 the main body of the taliban were the government and had institutions. It is common knowledge that any pashtun male that sports a beard and wears traditional afghan clothes, and has an AK47 is automatically labelled a taliban. He could be fighting for some local warlord or from some drug trafficker or even for a foreign entity like the ISI...but regardless, whatever he does comes to represent the actions of Taliban. So in 2004 those taliban that want to establish a sharia based government have had to distinguish themselves from the other factions operationally.

            You are not trying to understand the situation in Afghanistan and the interactions of powers. You are completely blind to the tact and abilities of the US and you keep shouting phrases like "Pork, homosexual, suicide bombing" like some nut with a billboard sign on his chest. The US is conducting psywars in Afghanistan on a massive scales. There are about 300,000 foreign personal in Afghanistan and someone said the other day that there are only 100,000 active mujahid Afghans. So we have a larger and superior, advanced military fighting against an indigenous population whose war ravaged country has been completely decimated for the past 40 years ...to fight "Fairly". You are sitting on your shaitan's donkey and preaching to us. Suicide bombing has not much to do with arabs or pakistanis. Suicide bombings happened in Vietnam too. The people who do commit suicide bombings do not drive their aspirations from religion, but are primarily secular and grievence based. It is a statistical fact that suicide bombings happen in proportion to NATO air strikes...since 2004 till now the number of air strike has risen by 5,800% ...there are more bombs dropped in Afghanistan than in Iraq, yet lesser suicide bombings happen in Afghanistan than in Iraq. 6 suicide bombings in Afghanistan from 2001 to 2004, up to 120 in 2008, 140 attacks in 2010, and 30 attacks this year...400 attacks in iraq in 2004 and you could say it correlates with the population but that wouldn't make sense given the fact that NATO has more troops in Afghanistan now than in Iraq and carries out more operations there. So in the last 8 months, 736 people (civilians and NATO soldiers combined) have been killed due to suicide bombings, but a little less than 3000 people killed by NATO bombings. Given the fact that "precision bombs" do more damage than suicide bombings...the scope of damage to property is more and resulting number of wounded is even greater!

            The big difference is that the mass media will never show the wailing Afghan mothers who have been terrorized in their homes by these night raids because they are not allowed to by their governments. You will see the carnage left behind by suicide attacks but you won't see the effects of US air strikes, which is why you are more emotionally aroused by the thought of "suicide bombing".


            More importantly the word "suicide bombing" connotes the practice to be born of hopelessness and despair, but the data shows that most "Suicide bombers" come from the educated middle class people. These people are more mostly altruistically invested in life and don't show signs of depression or mental disease. And it is widely acknowledged that suicide bombing is linked to political freedom, so if a place like Saudi (where 20,000 members of ONE family controls 20 million "saudies") produces suicide bombers, then should there be any surprise? It would be more appropriate to call them "human bombs". While most even agree that these human bombings occur mostly as a response to occupation so it maybe that you are blaming the fever for your woes, but don't realize that it is the fever that actually kills the bacteria that put you down in the first place.

            You have to learn to make the distinction between terrorism and resistance fighting. And you have to learn which faction is more deadlier and a bigger cause for the woes of Afghanistan - NATO or Taliban? Going around the forum challenging every one's view without an understanding of the situation only makes you look like a troll with a chip on your shoulder - because it is obvious that you only care to "win" arguments but never to find truths. You have been getting more and more pathetic with your arguments as time goes by... instead of analysing this modern phenomena towards which the ummah feels ambivalent you throw slogans around like some distraught old woman devoid of any capability to be reasoned with.

            Comment


            • #7
              Really ? 1500 civils ??? Oh my god, americans are criminals !!!!
              Punjabis Will invade USA my brothers

              Comment


              • #8
                Alchemist (chemia dan) brother, now it seems you are turning from an intellectual into a propagandadist---

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Alchemist View Post
                  You agreed there is always a natural and legitimate resistive force that will rise up against colonizers.
                  According to your faulty logic, suicide bombing delegitimizes the Taliban as that resistive force which even the colonizers recognises.
                  Faulty logic, what someone perceives and what the reality of something is are not identical.

                  The problem with an intellectually lazy keyboard warrior like you is that you only skim the surface of the mass media propaganda to find those titbits that reassert your delusions.
                  Yeah I'm the keyboard warrior but you get stirred up to defend and vindicate the Taliban no matter what crime they do. You're an E-Taliban

                  which is ironic to say since it wasn't more than 4 months ago you were decrying them for killing Massoud ..wahh wah.



                  Most likely the reason why the taliban made those manuals was part of their wider tact at organizing themselves and separating themselves from other factions.
                  Most likely? so you're making a guess. The Taliban have been organized since 1994, and were rampantly murdering civilians, go look at interviews with your Hero Massoud about the Taliban killing civilians.

                  So given that, your case lacks any support.



                  In 1994 the main body of the taliban were the government and had institutions.

                  and governments have manuals and ordinances they weren't actually the Government in 1994, it wasn't until much later that they started instituting governmental bodies

                  Read Ahmed Rashid's books on the Taliban, it's all there.

                  It is common knowledge that any pashtun male that sports a beard and wears traditional afghan clothes, and has an AK47 is automatically labelled a taliban.



                  So this Shinwari Tribesman who have AK-47s and are fighting the Taliban is being deemed Taliban now?

                  Don't back peddle and change goal posts now; you said that Pashtun Males sporting beards/traditional clothes and has an AK47 is labeled a Taliban.

                  YOUR words not mine.

                  He could be fighting for some local warlord or from some drug trafficker or even for a foreign entity like the ISI...but regardless, whatever he does comes to represent the actions of Taliban.
                  Already debunked the claim in last point; You're merely trying to appeal to emotion and interpolate your own narrative as if it is 100% fact.

                  [QUOTE] So in 2004 those taliban that want to establish a sharia based government have had to distinguish themselves from the other factions operationally.

                  They wanted to distinguish themselves operationally? By Suicide bombing? Borrowing AlQaeda tactics in Iraq?, putting more Muslim Afghans, especially Pashtun lives at risk?

                  This argument makes no sense; on A.) how suicide bombing makes them operationally dstinct B.) What does operational distinctiveness have to do with suicide bombing to begin with.

                  It's a RED HERRING....you're trying to smokescreen that the Taliban started suicide bombing, LONG after NATO was involved so NATO is not the cause of suicide bombing. Morally depraved Wahhabis are.

                  You are not trying to understand the situation in Afghanistan and the interactions of powers.
                  It's YOU who are not trying to understand; you're trying to make excuses for whatever evil the Taliban do. Which makes you no better than people who blindly defend NATO such as Toramana.

                  The claim of operational distinction as the basis for suicide bombing is unsupported. The claim that Taliban are concerned about civilians is also falsified by Taliban crimes on civilians historically and in recent. They're concerned about their REPUTATION, and THAT is why they started making these edicts in 09-10, because their power base is destabilized and therefore civilian approval would become necessary, unlike the 90's where they could act with impunity irregardless of whether civilians supported them. The fact they made these edicts demonstrates that civilian approval is very skim overall in Afghanistan.

                  That's a much more sensible narrative in context of the given variables; since you seem to be ok with throwing in your own spin into things.

                  You are completely blind to the tact and abilities of the US and you keep shouting phrases like "Pork, homosexual, suicide bombing" like some nut with a billboard sign on his chest.
                  Figures you'd have such an image in your mind since you rely on Conspiracy ut Websites and Tabloid Articles for "The News"; I can understand why you'd make that mistake

                  But again, you're bantering conspiracy nut talk.

                  I'm well aware of the "tact" ; I'm the one who was teaching you their tact, but they're not omnipotent, Mullah Dadullah was using children for suicide bombers, that wasn't some Mullah Dadullah look alike with some Mexican kids made to look Pashtun.

                  You support Murderous Zalimeen. Your Jihad is a fraud; it contradicts the standards of Islam; which you don't care about

                  The "Pork, homosexual and suicide bombing" are symbols of what you represent and exactly why your Posturing that you're just a Simple Muslim wanting Muslims to liberate themselves are disingenous.

                  You're an egotistical megalo maniac; who only argues to redeem yourself against forum posters because you suffer from a complex of working at lowly menial jobs and being unable to support yourself. And you'll argue ANY point, even if your words enable ****stains like Pakistan2010 to feel secure telling his Taliban connections (something he himself admitted) to blow themselves up around innocent Muslims; and taking their lives for granted.




                  The US is conducting psywars in Afghanistan on a massive scales.
                  No **** Sherlock; and guess who are their patsies in helping their Imperial Desgns?

                  You guessed it, The Taliban; because the more the Taliban fight their fraudulent jihad the wrong and TOTALLY Harram way, the more Pashtuns will run to the arms of Imperialists declaring them the hero; which they aren't. And alas the Noble Pashtuns end up lap dogs of the Imperial scheme. Toramana is proof of that.

                  do you not see how Toramana and that other freakshow use Taliban actions as a scapegoat to encourage other Pashtuns to embrace the Imperial Nexus???

                  Are you really THIS blind fool?


                  There are about 300,000 foreign personal in Afghanistan and someone said the other day that there are only 100,000 active mujahid Afghans. So we have a larger and superior, advanced military fighting against an indigenous population whose war ravaged country has been completely decimated for the past 40 years
                  Yeah not much different from the Soviet era, and yet Muslims of Afghanistan were able to bring down that seemingly insurmountable force; and this was PRIOR to Stinger Missiles being involved.



                  ...to fight "Fairly"

                  It's not about fighting fairly you dungheap ....it's about fighting in a way where you don't defeat YOUR own validity for fighting. You can't fight an Invader for tyrannizing your people; by TYRANNIZING your people. Doesn't the Logical inconsistency in that REGISTER in your diseased brain?

                  I couldn't care less if Taliban use manipulative tactics to cause more NATO casualties; if that was the case the Taliban would have a LEGITIMATE Jihad.
                  . You are sitting on your shaitan's donkey and preaching to us. Suicide bombing has not much to do with arabs or pakistanis. Suicide bombings happened in Vietnam too.
                  Yeah I'm sure the Taliban were suicide bombing because the Viet Kong inspired them. Heh.

                  do you actually THINK before you write? I never said suicide bombing was exclusive to one group. But the Pathology of the Taliban and their suicide bombing is definitely Pakistan and their cohorts from the Middle East.

                  How ironic you call condemning suicide bombing tactics as "sitting on Shaitan's Donkey" but offer apologetics for a tactic which kills more civilians than invaders as if it were Noble and a blessing from God.

                  You are really shameless. You should lynched like Najib was.

                  The people who do commit suicide bombings do not drive their aspirations from religion, but are primarily secular and grievence based.
                  But Islam encompasses ALL spheres of life; if this is a Jihad and they are Mujahideen, their obligations are to follow the rules of Islam PERIOD.

                  The fact is it's a DISTORTION of religion which motivates suicide bombing IN the Afghan context. Suicide bomber interviews use the manufactured Saudi Martyrdom rhetoric. So please let's not ignore the elephant in the room.
                  It is a statistical fact that suicide bombings happen in proportion to NATO air strikes...
                  False there were more airstrikes in the first 3 Months of the Afghan invasion there were in the 9 1/2 years since. If what you're saying was true we'd have seen suicide bombings from the start of the ground war.

                  The reason the Taliban had to resort to suicide bombing; if because most Afghans civilians refused to side with them. NOT because they want NATO, but they hated the type of perversion of religion the Taliban represented.
                  since 2004 till now the number of air strike has risen by 5,800% ...there are more bombs dropped in Afghanistan than in Iraq, yet lesser suicide bombings happen in Afghanistan than in Iraq.
                  Correlation-Causation Fallacy; again more airstrikes in 2001 since the whole 9 1/2 years since the Taliban fell.

                  6 suicide bombings in Afghanistan from 2001 to 2004, up to 120 in 2008, 140 attacks in 2010, and 30 attacks this year...
                  This actually disproves your argument; if suicide bombings were contingent on air strikes; we should see a similar rise in suicide attacks; and this year shouldn't have seen a decrease in suicide attacks but an INCREASE.

                  You debunked yourself.

                  400 attacks in iraq in 2004 and you could say it correlates with the population but that wouldn't make sense given the fact that NATO has more troops in Afghanistan now than in Iraq and carries out more operations there
                  This is a narrative argument at best


                  So in the last 8 months, 736 people (civilians and NATO soldiers combined) have been killed due to suicide bombings, but a little less than 3000 people killed by NATO bombings.
                  wrong;
                  In the first half of of 2011, the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan again brought yet higher numbers of civilian deaths as violence intensified and security spiralled downward. According to UNAMA/AIHRC figures, 1,462 Afghan civilians were killed in the first six months of 2011, another 15% jump over the same period in 2010.[27]
                  UNAMA/AIHRC attributed 1,167 of those deaths as having been caused by anti-government elements, up 28% from the same period in 2010 and representing 79.8% of the civilian deaths.[27]
                  UNAMA/AIHRC attributed 207 Afghan civilian deaths as having been caused by U.S.-led military forces, down 9% from the same period in 2010 and representing 14.2% of the civilian deaths.[27]
                  and Don't cry foul that this is a NATO source; because yours is from Time Magazine and other Western Sources; which you decry as propaganda. But its not propaganda if you can spin it in your favor right?

                  I'm not justifying NATO, because even 1 Muslim death in Afghanistan delegitimizes NATO as anything but an Imperialist occupier in my opinion. Te fact is they're killing less than the Taliban.

                  Given the fact that "precision bombs" do more damage than suicide bombings...the scope of damage to property is more and resulting number of wounded is even greater!
                  But suicide bombs are usually done in densely populated areas, so the damage factor increases due to target location.
                  The big difference is that the mass media will never show the wailing Afghan mothers who have been terrorized in their homes by these night raids because they are not allowed to by their governments.
                  Actually I have seen both the aftermath of a suicide bombing and airstrike represented in the media; you're being intellectually dishonest here.

                  You will see the carnage left behind by suicide attacks but you won't see the effects of US air strikes, which is why you are more emotionally aroused by the thought of "suicide bombing".
                  I've seen both in about even frequency
                  More importantly the word "suicide bombing" connotes the practice to be born of hopelessness and despair,
                  Which it is; and you proved it; earlier you said suicide bombing is a byproduct of being disadvantaged militarily which entails that they resort to the tactic out of desperation, it's desperation alright; they have no unanimous local support, they have no choice but such tactics.

                  but the data shows that most "Suicide bombers" come from the educated middle class people.
                  Uh the 9/11 Hijackers definitely did; but there is no significant educated middle class in Afghanistan.

                  These people are more mostly altruistically invested in life and don't show signs of depression or mental disease.
                  The 9/11 Hijackers visited strip clubs ....moving on., and to QUOTE YOU in THIS THREAD

                  Originally posted by Alchemist contradicting himself again
                  but are primarily secular and grievence based.
                  Grievance based, grievance, emotional turmoil, instability, mental illness ....do I need to paint this more clear.

                  Way to totally contradict yourself.

                  And it is widely acknowledged that suicide bombing is linked to political freedom, so if a place like Saudi (where 20,000 members of ONE family controls 20 million "saudies") produces suicide bombers, then should there be any surprise?
                  acknowledged by who? If this were the case we'd see suicide bombing every other day in Saudi Arabia.....and not Afghanistan and Iraq, both of which are used as play grounds for their agendas. coincidence?
                  It would be more appropriate to call them "human bombs".
                  Yeah they call that euphemism.
                  While most even agree that these human bombings occur mostly as a response to occupation
                  "Mostly" ; why not totally? Why weren't they prominent in the first Gulf War, why weren't they prominent in the Soviet-Afghan conflict?

                  I know why, it's nonsense. That's why. Suicide bombing promulgated because of doctrine which tries to align noble prestige with Martyrdom with the tactic and then is indoctrinated.

                  There's other ways to fight an occupation; suicide bombing do not become necessary because you're occupied; in fact JUST the opposite.

                  so it maybe that you are blaming the fever for your woes, but don't realize that it is the fever that actually kills the bacteria that put you down in the first place.
                  So you're saying that the Taliban by harming more civilians is actually doing us some good?

                  LOL
                  You have to learn to make the distinction between terrorism and resistance fighting.
                  oh I have, resistance fighting = fighting against an invader while caring for the welfare of your own people and keeping them out of harms way the very best you can.

                  Terrorism (Taliban version)= who gives a flying **** ...Mullah Dadullah said we'll be rewarded ..**** everyone else ....Yalla yallallalalala

                  Terrorism (Imperialist version)= We're entitled to conquer and subjugate, those who oppose will be crushed.
                  And you have to learn which faction is more deadlier and a bigger cause for the woes of Afghanistan - NATO or Taliban?
                  If we go quantitatively; then the Taliban, since more Muslims lose their lives due to them than NATO. In terms of the future of Muslims, it's a toss up, they're both equally damaging.

                  Going around the forum challenging every one's view without an understanding of the situation only makes you look like a troll with a chip on your shoulder -
                  were you looking in the mirror when you wrote that? Because nothing is more a description of you than this.

                  Most people here are AGAINST the Taliban. Just like the other forum.
                  because it is obvious that you only care to "win" arguments but never to find truths.
                  how ironic., ...and by truths, you mean the numerous times you interjected your own spin on things?

                  That's about as much truth as unicorns.

                  You have been getting more and more pathetic with your arguments as time goes by...
                  This is from the guy who said Grievance motivated suicide bombing; but that suicide bombers aren't mentally ill.

                  LOL

                  instead of analysing this modern phenomena towards which the ummah feels ambivalent you throw slogans around like some distraught old woman devoid of any capability to be reasoned with.
                  This is from the guy who thinks killing your own people is the best way to fight other people who are killing your people.

                  You don't even have the capacity FOR reason; how can you reason with anyone?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    [QUOTE=ScimitarXEdge;536463]Faulty logic, what someone perceives and what the reality of something is are not identical.



                    Yeah I'm the keyboard warrior but you get stirred up to defend and vindicate the Taliban no matter what crime they do. You're an E-Taliban

                    which is ironic to say since it wasn't more than 4 months ago you were decrying them for killing Massoud ..wahh wah.





                    Most likely? so you're making a guess. The Taliban have been organized since 1994, and were rampantly murdering civilians, go look at interviews with your Hero Massoud about the Taliban killing civilians.

                    So given that, your case lacks any support.






                    and governments have manuals and ordinances they weren't actually the Government in 1994, it wasn't until much later that they started instituting governmental bodies

                    Read Ahmed Rashid's books on the Taliban, it's all there.






                    So this Shinwari Tribesman who have AK-47s and are fighting the Taliban is being deemed Taliban now?

                    Don't back peddle and change goal posts now; you said that Pashtun Males sporting beards/traditional clothes and has an AK47 is labeled a Taliban.

                    YOUR words not mine.



                    Already debunked the claim in last point; You're merely trying to appeal to emotion and interpolate your own narrative as if it is 100% fact.

                    So in 2004 those taliban that want to establish a sharia based government have had to distinguish themselves from the other factions operationally.

                    They wanted to distinguish themselves operationally? By Suicide bombing? Borrowing AlQaeda tactics in Iraq?, putting more Muslim Afghans, especially Pashtun lives at risk?

                    This argument makes no sense; on A.) how suicide bombing makes them operationally dstinct B.) What does operational distinctiveness have to do with suicide bombing to begin with.

                    It's a RED HERRING....you're trying to smokescreen that the Taliban started suicide bombing, LONG after NATO was involved so NATO is not the cause of suicide bombing. Morally depraved Wahhabis are.



                    It's YOU who are not trying to understand; you're trying to make excuses for whatever evil the Taliban do. Which makes you no better than people who blindly defend NATO such as Toramana.

                    The claim of operational distinction as the basis for suicide bombing is unsupported. The claim that Taliban are concerned about civilians is also falsified by Taliban crimes on civilians historically and in recent. They're concerned about their REPUTATION, and THAT is why they started making these edicts in 09-10, because their power base is destabilized and therefore civilian approval would become necessary, unlike the 90's where they could act with impunity irregardless of whether civilians supported them. The fact they made these edicts demonstrates that civilian approval is very skim overall in Afghanistan.

                    That's a much more sensible narrative in context of the given variables; since you seem to be ok with throwing in your own spin into things.



                    Figures you'd have such an image in your mind since you rely on Conspiracy ut Websites and Tabloid Articles for "The News"; I can understand why you'd make that mistake

                    But again, you're bantering conspiracy nut talk.

                    I'm well aware of the "tact" ; I'm the one who was teaching you their tact, but they're not omnipotent, Mullah Dadullah was using children for suicide bombers, that wasn't some Mullah Dadullah look alike with some Mexican kids made to look Pashtun.

                    You support Murderous Zalimeen. Your Jihad is a fraud; it contradicts the standards of Islam; which you don't care about

                    The "Pork, homosexual and suicide bombing" are symbols of what you represent and exactly why your Posturing that you're just a Simple Muslim wanting Muslims to liberate themselves are disingenous.

                    You're an egotistical megalo maniac; who only argues to redeem yourself against forum posters because you suffer from a complex of working at lowly menial jobs and being unable to support yourself. And you'll argue ANY point, even if your words enable ****stains like Pakistan2010 to feel secure telling his Taliban connections (something he himself admitted) to blow themselves up around innocent Muslims; and taking their lives for granted.






                    No **** Sherlock; and guess who are their patsies in helping their Imperial Desgns?

                    You guessed it, The Taliban; because the more the Taliban fight their fraudulent jihad the wrong and TOTALLY Harram way, the more Pashtuns will run to the arms of Imperialists declaring them the hero; which they aren't. And alas the Noble Pashtuns end up lap dogs of the Imperial scheme. Toramana is proof of that.

                    do you not see how Toramana and that other freakshow use Taliban actions as a scapegoat to encourage other Pashtuns to embrace the Imperial Nexus???

                    Are you really THIS blind fool?




                    Yeah not much different from the Soviet era, and yet Muslims of Afghanistan were able to bring down that seemingly insurmountable force; and this was PRIOR to Stinger Missiles being involved.






                    It's not about fighting fairly you dungheap ....it's about fighting in a way where you don't defeat YOUR own validity for fighting. You can't fight an Invader for tyrannizing your people; by TYRANNIZING your people. Doesn't the Logical inconsistency in that REGISTER in your diseased brain?

                    I couldn't care less if Taliban use manipulative tactics to cause more NATO casualties; if that was the case the Taliban would have a LEGITIMATE Jihad.


                    Yeah I'm sure the Taliban were suicide bombing because the Viet Kong inspired them. Heh.

                    do you actually THINK before you write? I never said suicide bombing was exclusive to one group. But the Pathology of the Taliban and their suicide bombing is definitely Pakistan and their cohorts from the Middle East.

                    How ironic you call condemning suicide bombing tactics as "sitting on Shaitan's Donkey" but offer apologetics for a tactic which kills more civilians than invaders as if it were Noble and a blessing from God.

                    You are really shameless. You should lynched like Najib was.



                    But Islam encompasses ALL spheres of life; if this is a Jihad and they are Mujahideen, their obligations are to follow the rules of Islam PERIOD.

                    The fact is it's a DISTORTION of religion which motivates suicide bombing IN the Afghan context. Suicide bomber interviews use the manufactured Saudi Martyrdom rhetoric. So please let's not ignore the elephant in the room.


                    False there were more airstrikes in the first 3 Months of the Afghan invasion there were in the 9 1/2 years since. If what you're saying was true we'd have seen suicide bombings from the start of the ground war.

                    The reason the Taliban had to resort to suicide bombing; if because most Afghans civilians refused to side with them. NOT because they want NATO, but they hated the type of perversion of religion the Taliban represented.


                    Correlation-Causation Fallacy; again more airstrikes in 2001 since the whole 9 1/2 years since the Taliban fell.



                    This actually disproves your argument; if suicide bombings were contingent on air strikes; we should see a similar rise in suicide attacks; and this year shouldn't have seen a decrease in suicide attacks but an INCREASE.

                    You debunked yourself.



                    This is a narrative argument at best




                    wrong;


                    and Don't cry foul that this is a NATO source; because yours is from Time Magazine and other Western Sources; which you decry as propaganda. But its not propaganda if you can spin it in your favor right?

                    I'm not justifying NATO, because even 1 Muslim death in Afghanistan delegitimizes NATO as anything but an Imperialist occupier in my opinion. Te fact is they're killing less than the Taliban.



                    But suicide bombs are usually done in densely populated areas, so the damage factor increases due to target location.


                    Actually I have seen both the aftermath of a suicide bombing and airstrike represented in the media; you're being intellectually dishonest here.



                    I've seen both in about even frequency


                    Which it is; and you proved it; earlier you said suicide bombing is a byproduct of being disadvantaged militarily which entails that they resort to the tactic out of desperation, it's desperation alright; they have no unanimous local support, they have no choice but such tactics.



                    Uh the 9/11 Hijackers definitely did; but there is no significant educated middle class in Afghanistan.



                    The 9/11 Hijackers visited strip clubs ....moving on., and to QUOTE YOU in THIS THREAD



                    Grievance based, grievance, emotional turmoil, instability, mental illness ....do I need to paint this more clear.

                    Way to totally contradict yourself.



                    acknowledged by who? If this were the case we'd see suicide bombing every other day in Saudi Arabia.....and not Afghanistan and Iraq, both of which are used as play grounds for their agendas. coincidence?


                    Yeah they call that euphemism.


                    "Mostly" ; why not totally? Why weren't they prominent in the first Gulf War, why weren't they prominent in the Soviet-Afghan conflict?

                    I know why, it's nonsense. That's why. Suicide bombing promulgated because of doctrine which tries to align noble prestige with Martyrdom with the tactic and then is indoctrinated.

                    There's other ways to fight an occupation; suicide bombing do not become necessary because you're occupied; in fact JUST the opposite.



                    So you're saying that the Taliban by harming more civilians is actually doing us some good?

                    LOL


                    oh I have, resistance fighting = fighting against an invader while caring for the welfare of your own people and keeping them out of harms way the very best you can.

                    Terrorism (Taliban version)= who gives a flying **** ...Mullah Dadullah said we'll be rewarded ..**** everyone else ....Yalla yallallalalala

                    Terrorism (Imperialist version)= We're entitled to conquer and subjugate, those who oppose will be crushed.


                    If we go quantitatively; then the Taliban, since more Muslims lose their lives due to them than NATO. In terms of the future of Muslims, it's a toss up, they're both equally damaging.



                    were you looking in the mirror when you wrote that? Because nothing is more a description of you than this.

                    Most people here are AGAINST the Taliban. Just like the other forum.


                    how ironic., ...and by truths, you mean the numerous times you interjected your own spin on things?

                    That's about as much truth as unicorns.



                    This is from the guy who said Grievance motivated suicide bombing; but that suicide bombers aren't mentally ill.

                    LOL



                    This is from the guy who thinks killing your own people is the best way to fight other people who are killing your people.

                    You don't even have the capacity FOR reason; how can you reason with anyone?
                    "It's a RED HERRING....you're trying to smokescreen that the Taliban started suicide bombing, LONG after NATO was involved so NATO is not the cause of suicide bombing. Morally depraved Wahhabis are."

                    My friend, thats an errant and non evidence based statement (dont know about the Wahabi part... but talking about the NATO and suicide bombing connection.


                    Pape's seminal work has debunked this theory with hard evidence to the contrary. The numbers and their correlations to the cropping up of suicide bombing and NATO's relationship to this is discussed thoroughly in his work and runs counter 100% to what you are saying per his analysis of the full decade of data. I look forward to your response here:

                    http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...25/index2.html
                    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Where is the evidence based argument again

                      all I see is quotations with arbitrary statistics; and no reference to their origins but no evidence.


                      Someone writing a correlation-causation fallacy, is not evidence of causation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ScimitarXEdge View Post
                        Where is the evidence based argument again

                        all I see is quotations with arbitrary statistics; and no reference to their origins but no evidence.


                        Someone writing a correlation-causation fallacy, is not evidence of causation.

                        Compadre, Pape's text references the the location of the stats and where he derived them from. Also refer to his cited academic paper. The Carnegie Endowment paper is a discussion of Pape's text itself. Also, merely labeling an conclusion that is evidence derived, with logic jargon doesnt make it wrong. Its merely naming something with the hopes that referring to it as a fallacy makes it so (which you have to prove). Its a cop out, and I expect more from you since I know you are capable of more. Until you deal with Pape's work, in a point by point analysis, then your future arguments against the Taliban, and your commentary on the tactic of suicide bombing, as well as why it is utilized, as well as the Pakistani factor have had a hole blown right through them.
                        "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You also have to address the issues I noted, of assymetric warfare, the utility of various weaponry, the actual metrics, and the logical fallacy you make by imposing the Russian Afghan war parameters onto the Afghan American war.
                          "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            it also doesn't make it right ...thus cannot be considered "evidence based".

                            this is what logic is used for, to test the merit of alleged claims

                            so far you have guy shooting numbers into the air

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ScimitarXEdge View Post
                              it also doesn't make it right ...thus cannot be considered "evidence based".

                              this is what logic is used for, to test the merit of alleged claims

                              so far you have guy shooting numbers into the air
                              Wrong, thats a negligent statement. Pape is an authority on the matter. In fact he is the authority. No single author has done as indepth research on suicide bombing as a phenomena across cultures as he has. When a paper is written,and references are given, they are there for folks like you to go and dissect the references. For instance, if an article refernces Edward Gibbons The Fall of the Roman Empire in a discussion of the number of Romans killed in battle X, the reader has the right to go to the source and dissect it (ie. Gibbon's book). Pape's numbers derive from his text derived from the world incidents tracking system (National Tracking Center) amongst other primary number counts.

                              If you publicly challenge his citations I am sure he would oblige you in a debate. Otherwise, as most of us do, when references are given, it is our job to go to the primary source. Its not Pape's job to attach the actual primary source to teh back of his book.

                              So once again, if you choose to be lazy (which you usually are not) and merely label his arguments are present red herring arguments against them, that doesnt mean you have at all dealt with his work.

                              He is agendaless in this and his primary focus initially was the Tamil Tigers.

                              Until then, the you have not succeeded in dealing with Qardawi's construction of the argument regarding legality in Islamic jurisprudence... and you have not succeeded in dealing with why the Taliban utilize the tactic.

                              As I read your current set of arguments, the thesis you posit is that The Taliban act as an imperialistic proxy and level suicide bombings as a false flag operation of sorts to rally the people towards the agents of imperialization (e.g. Toramana). However, as Pape has noted, the correlations run counter to your argument. In any brand of research, whether it be cholesterol research and drug effectiveness or the presence of American soldiers and the numbers of suicide bombings going up in a commensurate fashion, data is analyzed and discussions and conclusions are made based on this evidence.

                              The bottom line of it all is that Pape's reputation is pristine, his numbers are credible, and his data provides strong correlative evidence that runs counter to the theory you posit (i.e. the complicated theory regarding the Taliban serving as a proxy to validate Toramana's existance)
                              "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

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