The two great "shars" afflicting Pashtuns today

[Toramana]

These two "shars" or turbulances or problems or whatever the appropriate term(s) for them afflicting the contemporary Pashtun society are, (1) the shar or turbulance of South Asian Muslims--this has origin in the communal politics of South Asia (2) the "shar", "turbulance", and also "timult" of Arabs, which has origin in Arab-Jews, both semitic cousins, rivalry.

This is a very important topic. And members should dilate on it.

[al-arab]

What has Pashtun internal problems with Tajiks, Hazaras, Punjabis, Balochs and Sindh people to do with Arabs and vice versa (Arab-Jewish problems) to Pashtuns in Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Both are thousands kilometers away.

Jews have no support in any Muslim country so if anything the anti-feelings toward the Zionist state is something shared by nearly all Muslims.

[randolph85]

the only thing of note is the indian/paki rivalry that is played out via proxy war in afghanistan, though this would not of been possible without the disaster that the soviet invasion brought, so its an afterthought.

as for the arabs, they are today a non issue in afghanistan. there are probably more jewish american rabbis in american bases than there are arab fighters in the country right now.

[Al Hanif]

The main problem for afghans currently is not arabs, nor south-east asians, not even americans. The main problem for afghans and muslim in general is Shaytan and the people like you who follow him and betray their own race, their own customs, their own religion for the sake of money, power and western values.

[al-arab]

the only thing of note is the indian/paki rivalry that is played out via proxy war in afghanistan, though this would not of been possible without the disaster that the soviet invasion brought, so its an afterthought.

as for the arabs, they are today a non issue in afghanistan. there are probably more jewish american rabbis in american bases than there are arab fighters in the country right now.

Well this is very truth, brother.

Most fundamentalist Arabs are found in Waziristan and they are a small minority. Islamic fundamentalism is not an Arab phenomenon nor any other phenomenon but a political phenomenon.

The biggest fundamentalist are often Western converts. I am talking from personal experience since I have meet a few in the Middle East. Those are often marginalized people for whatever reason who often have a limited knowledge about Islam but influenced by bad people they can be transformed into tools.

When I say fundamentalist, I refer to does who do not follow the Holy Quran but their own political ideology.

This term can be used by virtually everyone from Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists to communists, liberals etc. This is a human phenomenon.

But tell me, Toramana what is your point of this thread? To divide Muslims yet again, create hatred and exploit your blatant racism?

It is very strange that you and communist-Amir can spread your racism and hate without any warnings constantly. And it is also strange to see that in every topic and debate that involves race/strong nationalistic views you are always there to create problems.

I will again remind you of the fact that the Holy Quran STRONGLY condemns racism and nationalistic views as is the case in the Hadith.

[emkhan]

The real shar is secularism and materialism which have attacked our Pashtun and Islamic culture. This shar is penetrating in our minds and our veins.
This shar has disturbed the real and thoughtful Pashtuns thats why they have been forced to resist in their defence. Pashtuns who are fighting in the shape of talibs or whatever are fighting for Islam and pashtunwali actually. Because secularists, materialists, atheists (the followers of dajjaal) are spreading their dirty and anti god ideologies through tv, internet, secular literature and many other mediums.
These have really disturbed our Pashtunwali. Thanks to god we have some ghairati people among us who have stood up against these dajjaali tools.

[Alchemist]

These two "shars" or turbulances or problems or whatever the appropriate term(s) for them afflicting the contemporary Pashtun society are, (1) the shar or turbulance of South Asian Muslims--this has origin in the communal politics of South Asia (2) the "shar", "turbulance", and also "timult" of Arabs, which has origin in Arab-Jews, both semitic cousins, rivalry.

This is a very important topic. And members should dilate on it.

1) Muslims 2) Muslims...


So you have solved the problem of Pashtun society by abandoning Islam and Islamic brotherhood and wish them to do the same.

Even before I clicked the thread I had guessed that you were going to say Islam is the problem.


How many pashtuns have been killed by Arabs in the past 30 years?

It is interesting to note that you did not say Pakistan, but south asian MUSLIMS. Even though all of us can agree that the government of Pakistan plots day and night to subdue Afghanistan...we still don't consider the ordinary people of Pakistan as lepers that have to be avoided in the streets and spat on on sight.

It's not your fault for having a colonized mentality. You and soldat and some other atheists on this site seem to think that Islam is the root of all evil. And that by adopting western secular ideals Afghanistan will be welcomed to the G8 and NATO with open arms. Your Afghan passport...err your pakistani passport will have a better status in every embassy you walk into. You will be finally accepted as "one of them".

You don't offer any solutions. You simply keep bashing on Islam and arabs and try to scapegoat them. So what do you think? If arabs disappear off the face of the planet NATO will stop dropping bombs in pakhtunkhwa? We will all live happily after?

The problem is that you are a minority. If you go to a gathering of pashtuns and speak your mind openly....you will get your head chopped off. Which is why this forum is the only place you can vent your "conspiracy theories". I have been to many large gatherings of Pashtun men...reciting poetry...talking politics...sporting long beards and all dressed the same. I would love to see you get up on their stage ...declare your disbelief in Islam. And then tell them: "There are two problems with you people - Your arabic Quran and your Muslim brothers...abandon them and embrace western ideology and stop wearing those baggy pyjamas. Wear pants like I do. Shave your beard off like I do." ... If you had that much courage... I would have some serious respect for you.

But I don't. You sound like a lonely man to me. Isolated in your own society. You have this need to "come out of the closet" but you are too afraid to do it in your own community. Because you know the consequences would be dire. Which is probably why you are not politically active. And which is probably why you keep practising it here on this forum. Fantasysing that one day you will speak it out loud to Pashtuns. Get on TV and say it out loud.

Where are those khalqi, parchami Afghans that abandoned Islam? They are all in hiding like you. In the closet.

[Toramana]

So, I was talking of two shars i.e., the Shar of South Asian Islam---and the Shar of Arab Islam....

In the last one thousands years since the campaign of Mahmoud of Ghazna and Allauddin Ghouri, Muslim population in the Subcontinent has grown manifold mostly through conversion and also through ethnic contributiion of Muslim ruling classes from Central Asia (Turks, Mughals, Iranians/Persians, Afghans/Pashtuns).

During the late Mughal period, the Muslim phenomenon in Hindustan became indegenised no longer looking north and west for culutural and ideological inspiration and political leadership. Indegenous Muslim political power elite arose and Urdu got a firmer foothold visa-vis the foreign Persian during the late Mughal era. Lakhnawoo, Dehli, Deccan, etc. became focal points of the rise of an indegenous Indian Muslim Culture. The later Mughals in fact were more Indians than they were Central Asians.

Ideological resurgence of Indian Muslim identity also started taking shape during the late Mughal era. The movement of Shah Waliullah was one of the first indegenous Indian Muslim ideological movements followed by the emergence of myraids of other movements right into the late British era. Movements and schools of theology/thought like Deoband, Barelvi movement, Jummath-i-Iislami, Qadiani Tehrik, Ahrar, etc. are some example of such movements. The political rhetoric of most of these movements was pan-Islamist and theocratic. They also influenced swathes of Muslim population.

During the British period, the cultural and ideological resurgence of South Asian Muslims gained momentum. The influence of Urdu spread thanks the patronage by the British authorities. Indian Muslim Culture expanded weward into north-west Pakistan. The political resurgence of Indian Muslim Natinalism too took place during the British era. The landed Muslim elite (allied with British -) unable to maintain their power in a parliamentary system started to campaign for separate sufferage for Muslims and thus played a pivotal role in communalising Indian politics. This rivalry was also fanned by the British Raj for its own imperial agenda. It ended in an intense communal conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims ---the result of which was the birth of two states India and Pakistan. Pakistan later was partitioned giving birth to Bangla Desh.

Cutting long story short, the cultural, ideological, and political evolution of Indian Muslim Nationalism (Later called Pakistani nationalism) occured through the (1) rise of Urdu and expanding influence of the art and culture of the late Mughal era (2) the emergence of religious orthodox school of thoughts and movements like Deoband, Jummath-i-Islami, etc. and (2) resurgence of political movments like Muslim League, Jumatth-i-Islami, Ahrar, Khaksar, etc.

All this time, the South Asian Mulsim elite consistently tried to consolidate the Indian Muslim Nationalism and identity through expansion of Indian Muslim Culture and an exaggerated emphasis on Islam as a basis of identity.

The "strategic depth" of Pakistan is not just a depth in military or political terms---It is fundamentally a depth in cultural terms aimed at expanding the sphere of Indian Muslim Culture and Nationalism westwards into Afghanistan and integrating Pashtuns and Baluchis with their distinct sense of identity in Indian Muslim milliu. This is a kind of forward policy i.e., thwart the spectre of Pashtun natioanlism and identity before it challenges the political and cultural domination of Indian Muslims. Thus there is consistent effort being made to nuetralize and replace Pashtun identity with a religious-based identity to consolidate their bonds with Pakistan.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

So, I was talking of two shars i.e., the Shar of South Asian Islam---and the Shar of Arab Islam....

In the last one thousands years since the campaign of Mahmoud of Ghazna and Allauddin Ghouri, Muslim population in the Subcontinent has grown manifold mostly through conversion and also through ethnic contributiion of Muslim ruling classes from Central Asia (Turks, Mughals, Iranians/Persians, Afghans/Pashtuns). During the late Mughal period, the Muslim phenomenon in Hindustan became indegenised no longer looking north and west for culutural and ideological inspiration. Indegenous Muslim political power elite arose during this period. And Urdu got a firmer foothold visa-vis the foreign Persian Mughals themselves became more Indians than Central Asians.

Culturally vitalized/re-vitalized, indegenous Indian Muslims also ideologically resurged evidence of which is the rapid growth of schools of Muslim thought and Islamic theology and relgious movement e.g., the Shah Waliullahi, Deobandi, Barelvi, Qadiani, Nudwatul Ulamma, Jummath-i-Islami, etc. schools/movement emerged and gained influence in large swathes of Muslim population.

During the British period, the cultural and ideological resurgence of South Asian Muslims gained momentum. The influence of Urdu spread thanks the patronage by the British authorities. But the in particular, South Asian Muslims started to become organized politically under the Muslim landed elite who no longer could maintain their power in a paliamentary system. So, the concept of a Muslim Indian nation vis-a-vis Hindus was coined. This rivalry was also fanned by the British Raj its own imperial agenda. All this ended in an intense communal conflict---the result of which was the birth of two states India and Pakistan. Pakistan later split into two giving birth to Bangla Desh.

Cutting long story short, the cultural, ideological, and political maturation of South Asian Muslim phenomenon manifested into (1) Urdu and the art and culture inherited from late Mughal period, (2)religious orthodox school/thoughts and movements like Deoband, Jummath-i-Islami, and (2) Muslim League and Pakistan. The South Asian Mulsim elite have consistently tried to consolidate the South Asian Muslim Culture (of which religion forms a component) through placing an exaggerated emphasis on Islam and through expansion.

The "strategic depth" is actually not just depth in military terms---It is foremost a depth in cultural terms aimed at the integration of Pashtuns and Baluchis in South Asian Muslim milliu. Pashtun identity and nationalism are considered to be the gravest threat to the position of Indian Muslim cultural phenomenon vis-a-vis Hindu and therefore constant effort is made to nuetralize and replace it with a religious-based identity consciousness.

Did you see the camels here looool?:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/pashtun...76/#post535052


I thought you might have a heart attack!

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Hahahahahhaha look at this one wrorra:

Best Toy In Pakistan - YouTube

Looks like the Camel rules supreme[/URL]

[Toramana]

Did you see the camels here looool?:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/pashtun...76/#post535052


I thought you might have a heart attack!

How can pan-Islamists value national honour and dignity---they can sacrifice the whole 50 millions Pashtuns at the alter of Arab glory and some grand Ummah utopia.

Thanks...will have a look at it.

[Toramana]

This is an ample proof of what I want to say.

"Pakistan’s biggest nightmare is a strong, centralized, nationalist Afghan state — just the kind the Americans have been striving to create. Such an Afghanistan, Pakistani leaders fear, will lay claim to the Pashtun areas that straddle a border that was drawn carelessly by the British and that Afghanistan has never fully accepted. They also fear that the Pashtuns might someday want a nation of their own.

So in the thinking of Pakistan’s military and intelligence establishment, the Haqqanis make sense. They are Pashtuns but not nationalists, and they are increasingly seen as being more reliable partners than even the Quetta Shura, the Afghan Taliban leadership council based in Pakistan. And they provide a hedge in Afghanistan against any encroachment by Pakistan’s chief rival, India. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/wo...&smid=fb-share

[BarakzaiAbdali]

This is an ample proof of what I want to say.

"Pakistan’s biggest nightmare is a strong, centralized, nationalist Afghan state — just the kind the Americans have been striving to create. Such an Afghanistan, Pakistani leaders fear, will lay claim to the Pashtun areas that straddle a border that was drawn carelessly by the British and that Afghanistan has never fully accepted. They also fear that the Pashtuns might someday want a nation of their own.

So in the thinking of Pakistan’s military and intelligence establishment, the Haqqanis make sense. They are Pashtuns but not nationalists, and they are increasingly seen as being more reliable partners than even the Quetta Shura, the Afghan Taliban leadership council based in Pakistan. And they provide a hedge in Afghanistan against any encroachment by Pakistan’s chief rival, India. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/wo...&smid=fb-share

The question is whether you will also accept this facet of the article as well which seems to throw Farhat Taj ANDERSEN 's ideas into the trash bin (where other processes deposited her brain matter long before):

"Osama bin Laden was thought to have been hiding in the tribal areas, too, said a tribal elder reached by telephone in the Haqqani stronghold of North Waziristan. Instead, Bin Laden was killed by American commandos in Abbottabad, a small city deep in Pakistan that is home to a top military academy. Whether he was there with the knowledge of Pakistan’s spy agency is still unclear.
“The Americans have taken the hell out of us through drones all these years trying to target O.B.L.,” said the elder, referring to Bin Laden, and not wanting to be named for fear of his safety. “But they found him in Abbottabad. The same will happen with the Haqqanis, too.”"

The other part of the article you forgot to quote is:

"Some in the Pakistani military have acknowledged this merging of insurgent groups, yet the policy of support for the Haqqanis is unchanged. “We know that the Haqqanis are playing a double game,” a Pakistani military official in North Waziristan said last year. “We support them and they support our enemies, the TTP,” as the Pakistani Taliban are known."

Sort of takes the wind out of your sails regarding who is playing who.

[Tjanaparh]

Leave camels in peace and all other animals please!
They are not responsible for no human crime!
Animals are great - they are nor fanatics nor materialists!
They take from earth only as much as they really need and they do not call to kill all their brothers - no stupid fanatic, perverted, materialist, or ideologist, religious missuser, racial theoric .... should be compared to animals! He wont be worth even to be the **** of an animal !
Sorry for the remark

[AFG21]

Extremism and dum peopel like the Taliban and there suporters are the real chars here. Arabs and Punjabi and Western poepel know that in Afghanistan you have a lot of this kind of *******s who you can use, so thats way they are in Afghanistan now.