What percentage of Taliban are influenced by ISI?

[badmash_khel]

Well some people here claim that Taliban are 100% ISI creation and work for their intrests. Taliban supporters on the other hand claim they are legitimate homegrown freedom fighters and mujahideen whose only goal is to establish sharia law and bring stability. These people claim 0% Taliban are influenced by ISI, infact they cliam ISI is their sworn enemy. I don't agree with this opinion either. so what % of Taliban are influenced by ISI. Its just a general survery and I want to get peoples' opinion about this.

[Soldat_Amir]

Badmash_khel............Stability can never be brought by Taliban, every Afghan knows this, how can an Afghan allow child killers into government.

Day by day, I have his feeling, I should enlist with the ANA, but my commitments with family prevent me from doing this.

I know how to deal with Taliban, Karzai is wrong in calling them his brothers of the soil, they should be all traced and taken care of regardless of their tribe affiliation or where they hide.

Just ask yourself what would have happened if the Americans never came to Afghanistan?

[Talal]

you cant really measure it in terms of a fixed percentage, the top leadership might be in contact ..maybe some trainers too..other right people at the right places..spies informers .. These kinda people would be far less in numbers but essentially be running the show

[Admin Khan]

In my opinion, 0.1-10% max.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Badmash_khel............Stability can never be brought by Taliban, every Afghan knows this, how can an Afghan allow child killers into government.

Day by day, I have his feeling, I should enlist with the ANA, but my commitments with family prevent me from doing this.

I know how to deal with Taliban, Karzai is wrong in calling them his brothers of the soil, they should be all traced and taken care of regardless of their tribe affiliation or where they hide.

Just ask yourself what would have happened if the Americans never came to Afghanistan?

Stability, evolution through many decades, possibly even 150 years or so of thought. Top Bin Ladin analyst Michael Scheuer, former CIA Alec Station head interviewed to this extent with the Speigel. Your response might be: well the CIA basically created the Taliban (unproven assertion). This is an inadequate response in that the CIA also backs the Karzai regime, so this would be like the pot calling the kettle black. In fact Karzai official Salehi is confirmed to be on the CIA payroll here.

Scheuer's key comment on what sustained the Taliban was as follows:

"Scheuer: We're really not in a position to push these people. Who's going to replace them? There isn't anyone less corrupt. Probably the only incorrupt people in Afghanistan are the Taliban. If you want no corruption, give the government back to the Taliban."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...714936,00.html

As a separate confirmation on this concept, here is fascinating Harper's weekly discussion of the CIA backed strong man Abdurrazzaq of the Achekzaay in the south:

It is entitled The Master of Spin Boldan:

http://harpers.org/archive/2009/12/0082754

In contrast to the many assertions that the Taliban are the only folks benefiting from a backward operating base in the former NWFP, we see, from the well researched Harper's article that Abdur Raziq's enforcer:

"My driver, as it turned out, was Razik’s paternal cousin, also named Abdul Razik—a twenty-nine-year-old lieutenant in the Border Police force, whom the locals, when they want to distinguish him from his slightly older relation, call Small Razik. Small Razik lived a cross-border existence: he had three wives and two houses, one in Chaman and one in Spin Boldak, and he carried both a national-identity card from Pakistan and an Afghan passport."

So these guys are Karzai's southern mafia hitmen and they basically are connected to Pakistan s well.

What is this Little Raziq proud of?

"Razik turned to me suddenly. “Do you know what I do?” he asked. “I am a smuggler.” He said it proudly—it is, after all, the natural heritage of his tribe, which has straddled the border since the British drew it in 1893. “I take cars and things to Pakistan.”"

Regarding what his Uncle Monsour Achekzai and Adozai tribesman Esmat Muslim (Communist) did in the region:

"His family’s fortunes soared when Esmat Muslim, a warlord from the same Adozai branch of the Achakzai, came to prominence in the region. A former military officer who had been trained by the Russians, Esmat became a mujahideen commander during the early 1980s and organized a force drawn mainly from his tribe; Razik’s uncle Mansour became one of his principal lieutenants. Notorious for his treachery and cruelty, Esmat shattered the delicate peace that had existed between the Achakzai and Noorzai smuggling clans, and he eventually sided with the Communist government in return for control over the border trade. In the end, Esmat was driven out of Spin Boldak in 1988 by a combined mujahideen offensive, and later died of cancer in Moscow."

How did the Taliban then emerge??

"It was in reaction to such depredations by the warlords that the Taliban emerged, in 1994, from the districts around Kandahar city. Their first major victory was the capture of Spin Boldak on October 12, 1994, an event encouraged by the Pakistani trucking mafia, who saw the group as a means of clearing the roads north to Central Asia. Consequently, the balance between the Achakzai, who were linked to the traditional aristocracy, and the Noorzai, who were more congenial to a radical Islamist movement, swung again. Noorzai tribal figures such as Mullah Akhtar Jan Noorzai, a former commander in Spin Boldak, and Hajji Bashir Noorzai, one of the region’s largest drug smugglers, became influential supporters of the Taliban. (In April, Bashir Noorzai was sentenced to life in a U.S. prison on drug–trafficking charges, after having been lured to New York City by federal agents.) Razik’s uncle Mansour, who had survived Esmat’s departure by rejoining the mujahideen, was hanged from the gun of a tank north of Spin Boldak by the Taliban. Razik’s father also was killed, and his family, along with many Achakzai tribal leaders, fled into exile in Pakistan—until the U.S.-led invasion arrived like a thunderbolt."

How have Razzaq's actions influenced the Noorzai tribe to back the Taliban?

" Soon after he assumed power at the border, Razik began to feud with elements of the Noorzai tribe, particularly the Sultanzai, a rival smuggling clan spread between Spin Boldak and Chaman. One notorious incident took place during the summer of 2006 in Panjwaii District, a volatile area just west of Kandahar city. A predominantly Noorzai district, Panjwaii is a lush river valley crisscrossed by thick orchards and mud-walled compounds, and it provides an excellent springboard for attacks on Kandahar city. During the course of the summer, Taliban fighters had infiltrated the valley, and eventually the district governor, an Achakzai, called in Abdul Razik’s border force.
What followed was a debacle. The Noorzais, fearing their tribal enemies, rose up and joined forces with the Taliban. Razik and his men responded to the unexpected resistance with brutality. “They were killing women and children,” said Ustaz Abdul Halim, a Noorzai and former mujahideen commander who lives in Kandahar city. “After that, everyone was with the Taliban.”

[randolph85]

Just ask yourself what would have happened if the Americans never came to Afghanistan?

continued stability under the taliban?

no afghan ever supported the taliban because they think they are smart guys, but they brought stability in their domain of power. something this government supported by the world and 10s of billions can't do.

as for the poll, its pretty ridiculous. why would a talib foot soldier be influenced by the isi? what can the isi give them for selling their souls that the karzai gov't/US cant give them?

there are commanders that are influenced by the isi but how many commanders are there compared to foot soldiers? if there are 10 commanders who fight at the behest of the isi mixed with their own will to fight, there are 1000 talib soldiers who are fighting for their religion and country. not to say that all these talib foot soldiers have their heads on straight, but they are not isi drones. its like saying the 10s of thousands of afghan mujahids in the 80s fought the soviets because ronald ****in reagan told them to, and not because their nation was invaded by a foreign army that slaughtered its population.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Badmash_khel............Stability can never be brought by Taliban, every Afghan knows this, how can an Afghan allow child killers into government.

Day by day, I have his feeling, I should enlist with the ANA, but my commitments with family prevent me from doing this.

I know how to deal with Taliban, Karzai is wrong in calling them his brothers of the soil, they should be all traced and taken care of regardless of their tribe affiliation or where they hide.

Just ask yourself what would have happened if the Americans never came to Afghanistan?

So what would have happened is what happened in the US in the 1500-1600s when religious fundamentalists founded the Plymouth Rock Colony and hung women in the droves and were basically, a theocracy in all but name.

Nathaniel hawthorne would go on to apologise for the actions of his great grandfather, one of the lead magistrar's (mullahs) that oversaw the brutal witch trials.

When left alone the American theocracy evolved.

By this same token, look at Iran... when left alone Iran evolved from Khomaini to Khatami... right when the Americans started to shove the stick into the beehive, and nudge iran and create issues, the Iranians pushed back and moved farther to the right.

Every country must go through this phase of evolution.

Even the French experienced Robespierre and his brutality, but they evolved as well.

Left alone, and allows trade with the world without the ridiculous UN sanctions, Afghanistan would have experienced its own radical phase and whether it was the sons or the grandsons of the Taliban, a son of Afghanistan would have arisen that would have auto corrected his predecessors.

[randolph85]

pretty much. nations must go through natural processes of radical change. whatever was meant to be will be the end result. though, this only works when nations are not cornholed by outsiders from every damn orifice.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

pretty much. nations must go through natural processes of radical change. whatever was meant to be will be the end result. though, this only works when nations are not cornholed by outsiders from every damn orifice.

Constantly.

[graveyardofempires]

even though this poll is not accurate but i would say isi and paki state is at the mercy of taliban.

[randolph85]

even though this poll is not accurate but i would say isi and paki state is at the mercy of taliban.

i wouldnt say that is correct at all. pakistan has been playing a double game for years, its only recently that there has been groups like the ttp in the mix. the ttp being one of the only offshoots of isi supported groups that have turned against the states military.

the isi still has considerable influence, by all accounts, with the afghan taliban. one recent example being pakistan admitting to setting up contact with the haqqanis and the US, the haqqanis and the US both admitting this meeting took place.

[graveyardofempires]

i wouldnt say that is correct at all. pakistan has been playing a double game for years, its only recently that there has been groups like the ttp in the mix. the ttp being one of the only offshoots of isi supported groups that have turned against the states military.

the isi still has considerable influence, by all accounts, with the afghan taliban. one recent example being pakistan admitting to setting up contact with the haqqanis and the US, the haqqanis and the US both admitting this meeting took place.

history my friend.
learn history to know the peopel and how they react.

dont let the pakis fool you,they are using those stories because karzai and co made those stories up and now pakistan is compensating.

at the end of the day that gives pakistan a greater which karzai and co are giving them and lets not forget about all the talk about neighbouring countries being part of the peace process.

[randolph85]

history my friend.
learn history to know the peopel and how they react.

dont let the pakis fool you,they are using those stories because karzai and co made those stories up and now pakistan is compensating.

at the end of the day that gives pakistan a greater which karzai and co are giving them and lets not forget about all the talk about neighbouring countries being part of the peace process.

its called a double game. i could go ahead and post all the pictures, but i will spare myself the time. things are not always as they seem. we have all seen the pictures of hekmatyar with isi and cia agents while hekmatyar denounced the west in speeches. massoud with isi agents and paki religious group leaders when he was the least favored of the muj leaders. rabbani when he was president visiting islamabad when the isi supported hekmatyar was rocketing kabul. even recently, the pro taliban paki political leaders sitting and smiling with rabbani in tehran 2 days before his death.

america met the haqqanis, this is fact since both parties admit to it.

pakistan set up the meeting, this is confirmed by both the americans and the pakis, with no denial from the haqqanis.

the same haqqanis who have recently been making pronouncements based on recent news in the region. its not like they dont know what the pakis or americans have been saying. they have already publicly stated the meeting happened. if they wanted to deny pakistans role in setting it up, they could have but didn't.

[Admin Khan]

I've said this over and over again, Taliban is not an "ISI-creation". That's a myth. Taliban was an actual movement, that was fully endorsed and supported by the Pukhtuns because they were the best of the worst. No one, in my opinion, is claiming they are the only option for Afghanistan. That is ridiculous, and hypocrisy at it's best. We should always want the best for Afghans. However, one can't sit here and claim that those bunch of rural Pashtuns from Kandahar began this movement for "fame" and "power". Had they wanted fame and power, they could've accepted Bush's offer. Mullah Omar would have been a billionaire right now, if such was his primary goal and intent.

Caveat:
There is absolutely no denial in the fact that Pakistan nurtured, and supported the Taliban once they were in full-effect. They did, in a hidden sense, serve as a proxy for Pakistan to secure a friendly Afghanistan against the Indian funded Northern Alliance. When judging the Taliban, we must take into account the context of their uprising. This is a time where looting, and rape was just as common as buying a cheese-burger from Mcdonalds. Initially, they vowed to prevent that. They were not 'politicians' so they did make many mistakes. For one, many in the group, served as pawns for the ISI, where they were inadvertently serving their interests. They tried to make the Taliban recognize the border, but they weren't as dumb as the Punjabi leadership had thought they were. As of right now, to claim everyone who opposes the US presence in Afghanistan is part of the "Taliban" is also a blanket statement. Many of the Afghans, who are opposing western presence in Afghanistan, are regular Afghans who have seen torture of some sort, or lost a relative or a son. Revenge plays a crucial role in Afghan culture.

In conclusion, Afghanistan does not deserve the Taliban, or this current government. She deserves a competent administration, where her interests and institutions are built. Afghanistan does not need Pakistan or Iran to dictate her policies through various proxies. Also, Afghanistan should not dare to harbor or support instability in her neighboring nations, if such was ever the case. If the aforementioned is at play right now, then Afghanistan is no different then her terrorist-supporting neighbor Pakistan. To be fair, we should not be completely oblivious - Afghanistan also had detrimental policies, which naturally prevented growth and stability. Afghanistan shouldn't blame everything on her neighbors.

[R3SISTANC3]

However, last Friday, the Friday Times of Pakistan published a comprehensive report on an important incident that challenges the very existence of the notion of the Durand Line. It reported a visit by a high level group of 95 Taleban including their interior minister in a convoy of heavily armed vehicles to Mohmand Agency. The report says the visit “has revived Afghanistan's claim on the area and left Islamabad shocked.” The report added TFT has learnt that the delegation, which was accorded a warm welcome by local chieftains and returned the same day whence it had come, visited a number of places in the agency, most notably the Khapakh area, some 20 kilometers west of Ghalanai. It seems that the visit had prompted the local assistant political agent Mutahar Zeb, to send urgent reports to the Home and Tribal Affairs Department. But Pakistani authorities have downplayed the significance of the visit stating that the group was there to offer condolence to a bereaved family.

The Unholy Durand Line


So much for creation of Pakistan.