The Citizen vs. The Tribesmen

[ScimitarXEdge]

Episode 2: "The Citizen Vs. The Tribesman" - YouTube

an interesting anthropological examination, I don't necessarily agree and don't think this "proves" anything, but it shows some insights.

[Toramana]

Nice...enjoyed it---I though would not agree that a tribeman surrenders his autonomy to the group. Rather, I will say that in each case, there is a different conception of autonomy which the member (citizen or tribeman) adheres to. As much a tribeman is tied to the tribe, so much the citizen is bound by the notions of good citizenship in a modern society.

[Karachi]

some times i wish i was part of some tribe, it is probably interesting to live like that. I agree with him that sense of "belonging" is very important for humans. Here in the west most of us dont feel that feeling and often feel very lonely and alienated.

[kakargirl]

Tribes will always win i believe in tribal system.

[randolph85]

the problem of tribalism is when the sense of pride pits one tribe against another. tribes who are both pashtun, afghan, and muslim. islam didn't eliminate tribalism, it only set to redefine its bounderies. the tribe became one based on common belief rather than dumb luck of being born to certain people and geography. pashtuns need to take the tribal mentality and apply it to all pashtuns and all afghans within the country. once that happens, we aim higher. but one step at a time.

[khushal]

@scimitar I am surprised you put this video up. are you coming around yet.


@Randolph,
most tribal conflicts in afghanistan stems from lack of resources. It has nothing to do with pride but survival. Since there is finite resources, the tribes must fight as groups in order to control and use those resources for survival of tribal members.


on a side note, tribal societies function better and more effeciently in chaotic situations like war because there is no governmental institutions so people have rely to on other members of the tribe to survive.

[khushal]

some times i wish i was part of some tribe, it is probably interesting to live like that. I agree with him that sense of "belonging" is very important for humans. Here in the west most of us dont feel that feeling and often feel very lonely and alienated.

You are correct. people in the west do feel lonely and hunger for belonging to a group. Youth gangs sprout up because we as humans naturally form groups. The wests answer to youth gangs are sport teams as something more positive because you cant stop the feeling of wanting to belong. you cant fight evolution.

I disagree with how he talks about progress.
The industrial citizen(man and woman) is conditioned(educated and trained) to work as effeciently as possible for maximum production. tribesmen only work enough to survive(each sex have their own role to survive effeciently), to the tribesman extra production is unnecessary and destructive nad Use only what is needed. This is why industrial societies are more advanced(materially) than tribal and feudal societies.

Native Americans saw the european man as selfish, disloyal creature that destroys the earth because he takes more than he needs and destroys what he does not need.

[khushal]

have any of you guys lived around black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods in the west. From my experience, when I lived around black people, I felt like I belonged to the community, people were social and wanted to get to know you.
When I lived in white neighborhoods, I never knew any of the neighbors. Nobody even waved, they just went in their homes and came out to go to work. They were like robots. when I would wave at someone, they looked at me as if I was doing something wrong. they were not all like that but the majority were.

[Afghanistan2010]

some times i wish i was part of some tribe, it is probably interesting to live like that. I agree with him that sense of "belonging" is very important for humans. Here in the west most of us dont feel that feeling and often feel very lonely and alienated.

i will report you from my tribe,just to show you how it is.

yes it is an honour to be in a tribe,im happy beloning to one the afghan tribes.

in case of war , you have to go to war ,even if they are the people you are in peace with.

and other things that goes against islamic rulings.

so there for i do not agree with everything in the tribe what goes against Allah (the most high) and his messenger (pbuh)and dont follow it.

[ScimitarXEdge]

@scimitar I am surprised you put this video up. are you coming around yet.
.

No, I clearly stated I don't necessarily agree with it, numerous examples of tribes giving up their autonomy, especially these days, but perhaps in the past this was true.

[AFG21]

have any of you guys lived around black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods in the west. From my experience, when I lived around black people, I felt like I belonged to the community, people were social and wanted to get to know you.
When I lived in white neighborhoods, I never knew any of the neighbors. Nobody even waved, they just went in their homes and came out to go to work. They were like robots. when I would wave at someone, they looked at me as if I was doing something wrong. they were not all like that but the majority were.

I hade expirince the athore way around. When I first came to The Netherlands I leaved in predominataly muslim and black neigebourhood. But I don't knew my neighbours, everybody just stickt to there own group. Turks whith Turks Morocan whith Morocans and Some African whith Africans and becuase we were the only Afghan family nobody talked or had contact whith us, I only had contact whith the children of my neighbourhood. Then few years later we moved to another neighbourhood that was actauly white everebody was Dutch there, the neighbours always greeted us and they also talked to my mother, my mother spoke at that time not that good, the language but the neighbours steel talked to her and now she can comunicate really good whith them and they come in the weekends for cupof cofe. So I think it's not about white or black but only about the culture, US white folks are just racist I think.

[AFG21]

And they guy is talking about stoning, my father says that he never witnessed a stoning in his live, it was not that in our village never happend something, in contarary, there was a girl who got pregnant and was not married she gave birth to a child, but the parents beat her afterwards and not stoned her to death. She steal leaves there although steal unmarried, but saying that stoning is a part of Afghan tribesman culture is not true. Only the Taliban introduced this thing in Afghanistan and they learnd that from the wagshcie Arabs.

[Soldat_Amir]

And they guy is talking about stoning, my father says that he never witnessed a stoning in his live, it was not that in our village never happend something, in contarary, there was a girl who got pregnant and was not married she gave birth to a child, but the parents beat her afterwards and not stoned her to death. She steal leaves there although steal unmarried, but saying that stoning is a part of Afghan tribesman culture is not true. Only the Taliban introduced this thing in Afghanistan and they learnd that from the wagshcie Arabs.

The reason why you was greeted by White people in Holland was because they were civilized and progressive, and the reason why Turks stuck with Turks and Arabs with Arabs, is because they come from corrupted backgrounds and poor upbringings.

I feel sorry for the West at times, especially when dealing with their immigrant populations, if this was Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Bahrain, they would have mass beaten any migrant who broke any laws. etc etc etc.

Stoning of women is actually a Jewish custom that mohammad introduced to Islam. The ancient Israelites followed this custom, and has nothing to do with "Pure Afghan culture" or Afghanistan as a whole.

Anyone who says, stoning a girl/women is part of Pashtun/Afghan culture needs their head reexamined.

These newly introduced bedion customs are due to the arrivals from the middle eastern during the 70's, and the impact of a identity broken smashed Pakistani public.

Men in Waziristan, back in the 40's, use to hang about near the rivers, brushing their mostachs, and combing their hair, dressing nicely, just to attract the females who would wash their clothes/collect water from the river and springs, one can refer to it as "Traditional love". Those days are gone, now women are chained to their rooms and walk around in Pre-Islamic Bedion Arab Burqas.

The Afghan people of the old ages were tolerant and kind, thats why people wrote about them and referred to them as noble people, now a days, those days are gone, we have a new generation of Lal masjid like lunatics who dont even spare children when they murder.

[ScimitarXEdge]

The problem with personal anecdotes is that anyone can say them, we don't know if any are fact and we can't refer back to them with concrete references because this would be beyond our means. Anyone can make them up.

but based on references of Pashtunwali,while stoning itself is not prescribed, a woman who gets pregnat will definitely get killed

http://www.khyber.org/culture/pashtunwali.shtml#Tor

Tor

As has been suggested earlier that Pukhtoons are sensitive about the honour of their women folk and slight molestation of the women is considered a serious and an intolerable offence. The cases of adultery and illicit relations are put down with iron hand in and no quarter is given to culprits either male or female. Casting of an evil eye on woman is tantamount to imperil one's life. Both sexes, therefore, scrupulously avoid indulgence in immoral practices.

If a Pukhtoon discovers that a particular person is carrying a liaison with any female of his house, then he neither spares the life of the female nor that of her seducer. This is called Tor in Pashto (literally meaning black but used for public disgrace and defamation) or stigmatization of both male and female who are found guilty of illicit amour on sufficient evidence. Both the man and woman are put to death according to the customary law and this type of notoriety, abuse and slander is wiped out with the blood of the culprit. Besides adultery, death penalty is also prescribed for elopement which also falls under the purview of Tor. In cases of Tor murder is not accounted for and the woman relatives are justified by the tribal law to kill their female relation as well as her paramour. In case any of the persons guilty of adultery succeeds in absconding, the heirs of the female have every right to kill him/her whenever and wherever an opportunity presents itself. Otherwise the matter remains Paighor (reproach).

[AFG21]

^ No becuase you don't belive in it doesn't mean it is not true.
I am not a lier like you who says anything. You are not even a Pashtun so what do you know about it. And Afghanistan is not Yemen so there are a lots of storys you don't know. Like there are pashtun women in the army, women who divorced and married again. Women who were when they were kids given to a boy and when they would grow up they would marry, but some didn't accept that and went to the court and asked that the boys familie would leave them alone, and they married some one else. They all leave now and no one is dead. Your idea of pashtun being monoton bakward mountain peopel who kills anyone that don't folow Pashtunwali is false, you jsut need a reality check.