Dr Zbigniew Brzezinski

[sanman]

Are Afghans/Pashtuns aware of who Dr Zbigniew Brzezinski is, and his role in Afghan history? I'd like to start a discussion thread dedicated to this man and his politics, which has affected so much of the world.

He was the main Western architect of the Afghan War against the Soviets. His successor and colleague was Robert Gates III, who became US Secretary of Defense under both Bush and Obama, having only recently stepped down from that role.


Brzezinski And The Mujahideen Boys - YouTube


CRG -- The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.



Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?



B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.


Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?


B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

[khushal]

They were supporting the Rabani/Masood/Hekmatyar alliance back in the early 1970's.


Vice president(at the time) Nixon approached Afghan defence minister(at the time) Daud about a US military base in Bagram in exchange for Aid. When Daud refused, the US started looking for an alternative regime that would be more open to a US military base. The support was much earlier than 1978.

[sanman]

That may have been the US agenda, but I'm talking about Brzezinski's personal agenda.

He rose to power with US President Jimmy Carter, whom he recruited before he became president. So he wasn't really involved during Nixon's time, so your picture has nothing to do with that.

Yes, even Pak Army/ISI supported Masood previously. You discard the Masood pawn to bring in the Hekymatyar pawn. Then you discard the Hekmatyar pawn to bring in the Taliban pawn.

But my main point is that Brzezinski was particularly bold and ruthless because he was fighting for his homeland rather than for the United States. Of course, he always tried to portray the liberation of his homeland as being in the US interest. Just like how you saw him speaking to Afghans and saying he was on their side too.

If somebody other than Carter had been President, and somebody other than Brzezinski had been his advisor, then would the AFghan War have happened? That's a question you need to ask yourself.

Nixon was known for his toughness in ending the Vietnam War, but his toughness is exaggerated, because all he wanted was a withdrawal. After US forces withdrew from Vietnam, and Carter became President, advisor Brzezinski re-started that war covertly.
Nextdoor to Vietnam was Cambodia, which was ruled by US ally Lon Nol. Brzezinski went to Soviet rival China, and told them to support their own pro-China communist group, which became known as the Khmer Rouge. The Khmer Rouge, led by Pol Pot, first killed off all other communists who were pro-Soviet. Then they overthrew the govt of Lon Nol, and established their new govt. Then they did something very sneaky - they invited all educated Cambodians living outside to come back to the country, saying it was time to establish a new paradise. So all the educated Cambodians outside came back. Then very suddenly, the Khmer Rouge rounded up everyone and sent them to do forced labor in the rice paddy fields. And in the process, they killed millions of them. Not thousands - but millions.
The Vietnamese were forced to invade Cambodia, in order to stop the chaos and flood of refugees. The Khmer Rouge were forced back into the jungles, where they waged a very deadly guerrilla war against the Vietnamese Army. By forcing the Vietnamese into invading, Brzezinski was able to give the Vietnamese "their Vietnam". Just like how he later set up a similar trap in another country, by luring the Soviets to invade, so that he could give them "their Vietnam".



So this is an example of a different country, but a similar approach.
You support a militia, you have them say they're fighting to create paradise, and you kill lots and lots of people. Paradise in the name of Allah, Paradise in the name of Communism, Paradise in the name of whatever.


But Brzezinski's goal was not to liberate these people - it was to liberate his own people. He couldn't fight a brutal liberation war back in his own homeland. So he fought that war somewhere else, in somebody else's homeland, far away on the other side of the world, where it couldn't hurt his own homeland.



"I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot. I encouraged the Thai to help the Khmer Rouge. The question was how to help the Cambodian people. Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him. But China could."

-Zbigniew Brzezinski

[khushal]

there was the hungarian uprising in 1956 which was squashed byt he red army.
but why dont you tell us since your such a smart drunk, how are the eastern Europeans supposed to rebel against the soviets. there was no motivation for eastern europeans to revolt.

[sanman]

there was the hungarian uprising in 1956 which was squashed byt he red army.
but why dont you tell us since your such a smart drunk, how are the eastern Europeans supposed to rebel against the soviets. there was no motivation for eastern europeans to revolt.

Yes, there was that Hungarian revolt, as well as the 1968 revolt in Czechoslovakia called "Prague Spring". (This is where "Arab Spring" gets its name from)

So the Eastern Europeans had motivation to revolt, but no chance to succeed, since the mighty armies of the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact were standing ready, and could have crushed such attempts in a bloody way. It took some time for their refugee communities to settle in other countries and climb to positions of greater power, where they could make a difference and affect policies in the free world.

But since you are such a fan of Brzezinski to make excuses for him, can you tell me - was it right of him to exploit another people to achieve his own personal ends? After all, it's not as if Afghans had caused Eastern Europe to come under Soviet occupation. For that, you can blame the power games of Europeans.

So why should Afghans have paid the price? Is the reason because Afghans love to fight? Yes, everyone likes to brag about their own fighting spirit, but isn't it true that most would prefer to just earn a living and raise families?

[khushal]

if they had motivation to revolt, why didnt they.

[sanman]

We've just discussed 2 instances where they did revolt - Hungary in 1956, and Prague Spring in 1968 - but both of these uprisings were quickly and brutally crushed.

As I've said, the people of Eastern Europe wanted their freedom, but they had no chance to succeed in any uprising, because the Iron Curtain under which they lived was too powerful.

Brzezinski didn't seek to send them any arms or Stinger missiles, etc. He didn't want a bloody war to claim the lives of his people. Why do that, when you can sucker people into fighting war elsewhere on the other side of the Soviet Union? Why ask your own family to fight and die, when you can get somebody else to fight and die for them instead?

Tell me - why did the dovish Jimmy Carter give diplomatic support to Pol Pot at the UN?



They were supporting that man.

"I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot. I encouraged the Thai to help the Khmer Rouge. The question was how to help the Cambodian people. Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him. But China could."

-Zbigniew Brzezinski

[khushal]

so why was this iron curtain not so powerful when the iron curtain came to afghanistan and why is brezinski not giving stinger missiles to poland today. whats going on, did brezinski plan fail of making poland the control room of europe instead of some backyard nation of europe.

[sanman]

so why was this iron curtain not so powerful when the iron curtain came to afghanistan

Because strategists like Brzezinski were willing to create a much more ferocious fight in Afghanistan, as compared to doing it where his own people lived.

and why is brezinski not giving stinger missiles to poland today. whats going on, did brezinski plan fail of making poland the control room of europe instead of some backyard nation of europe.

But Poland was liberated with the fall of the USSR, and given membership in NATO, and lots of aid to benefit their country. You seem to think that "winning" means getting all your family killed. Brzezinski told other people to get their families killed, but meanwhile he kept his own family safe.

You have to also understand that Brzezinski's native Poland was badly crushed during WW2, and then later oppressed by Soviet-supported communism. But if someone hurts you or your family, is it right to go prey on some other innocent person, in order to save your family?

Tell me, since you are a God-fearing person. If you were given the choice of killing some innocent person, in order to save your own family, would you do it? Since you are standing up for religious values, will you give a direct answer?



"I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot. I encouraged the Thai to help the Khmer Rouge. The question was how to help the Cambodian people. Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him. But China could."

-Zbigniew Brzezinski

[khushal]

so what your saying is the brezinski has the power of god and can make people fight at will. oh wait I forgot you dont beleive in god. so he has super natural powers that science can not explain to make people fight at his will.

OK, now go right a book and sell it as a comedy.

[Tjanaparh]

so what your saying is the brezinski has the power of god and can make people fight at will. oh wait I forgot you dont beleive in god. so he has super natural powers that science can not explain to make people fight at his will.

OK, now go right a book and sell it as a comedy.

Dear Khushel - but it is obvious that he isn't saying that things.
Stay at the serious!
He isn't even something special - he is doing what zionists are doing their whole life - planing to crush other peoples one to the other for their own interests, even Rome was doning same, Stalin too.
That is nod God, exactly the opposite - God is ib strong, light and trouthfull - were did You see in what Sanman says any quality that makes You do tht conclusions?

[sanman]

He does not want to be serious, because he is pro-Pakistan, and for Pakistan a man like Brzezinski was a very useful ally who helped get lots of aid and support for Pak military and Zia-ul-Haq. So naturally he will not be happy if Pak's friend Brzezinski is criticized or examined.

[Soldat_Amir]

He does not want to be serious, because he is pro-Pakistan, and for Pakistan a man like Brzezinski was a very useful ally who helped get lots of aid and support for Pak military and Zia-ul-Haq. So naturally he will not be happy if Pak's friend Brzezinski is criticized or examined.

Khushal is confused and emotional.

The whole world has come to terms with why the West,Zionists, Muslim world used Afghanistan as a proxy state to prevent communism from turning their villas,harems and capitalistic models into land for the masses, by doing so, its a fact, these people used Islamist ideology to defame Islam and the Afghan people, those who used Islamist ideology were Arabs,Pakistanis and the West.

Khushal, thinks those warlords that destroyed Afghanistan, loooted Afghan banks, burnt down schools and killed many intellectuals as heros!

If he disagrees with you, he gives you an instant disapproval of your Pashtuness and calls you "not even a Pashtun", especially in my case, whereby he said it to make a Non Pashtun members here happy(Al-Arab).

Afghanistan should never be used as a proxy state for any country.

If people think, that a bunch of losers, who slaughered girls in Herat and destroyed bridges, and then started killing themselves as heros, they should get their mind re-examined.

America/Arab and Pakistan got its victory when the Afghan government was destroyed and its only ally fled, and the Pashtun/Afghans became the losers not the victors!

As they returned to their homes while we endured another 30 years of war.

Hekmatyar and co, need to be brought to the courts and punished.

One for treason and secondly for killing their own people!

[al-arab]

Khushal is confused and emotional.

The whole world has come to terms with why the West,Zionists, Muslim world used Afghanistan as a proxy state to prevent communism from turning their villas,harems and capitalistic models into land for the masses, by doing so, its a fact, these people used Islamist ideology to defame Islam and the Afghan people, those who used Islamist ideology were Arabs,Pakistanis and the West.

Khushal, thinks those warlords that destroyed Afghanistan, loooted Afghan banks, burnt down schools and killed many intellectuals as heros!

If he disagrees with you, he gives you an instant disapproval of your Pashtuness and calls you "not even a Pashtun", especially in my case, whereby he said it to make a Non Pashtun members here happy(Al-Arab).

Afghanistan should never be used as a proxy state for any country.

If people think, that a bunch of losers, who slaughered girls in Herat and destroyed bridges, and then started killing themselves as heros, they should get their mind re-examined.

America/Arab and Pakistan got its victory when the Afghan government was destroyed and its only ally fled, and the Pashtun/Afghans became the losers not the victors!

As they returned to their homes while we endured another 30 years of war.

Hekmatyar and co, need to be brought to the courts and punished.

One for treason and secondly for killing their own people!

Well, I have never said that Afghanistan should be ruled by Arabs or any other else. I even made this very clear in my first post about Taliban (see "why do so many people support Taliban here" thread for confirmatin". So please, don't put words into my mouth.

The only thing I have said is that in MY OPINION Afghanistan should be truth to their roots and religion which is Islam, whether you like it or not. I also said that the Afghan "government" is a puppet and fake government constructed by usa. Let the people chose themselves.

What I can tell you for certain is that your dream of a communist Afghanistan will never happen nor has it happened in any Muslim country. There is a reason for this.

You claim to be a defender of Pashtuns but at the same time you hardly do anything other than critize the society, culture, religion and those problems that have nothing to do with those aspect you neglect and claim that everybody else is behind this (mainly you bash Arabs and look away from USA war criminals and Iranian influence).

You also want a secular state, tolerance and a western minded country but at the same time you claim to be a ultranationalist who oppose everything that is none Pashtun. And you want to create a new Afghanistan with that philosophy. I am afriad that if that is your plan you will end up like Najibullah.

Why do you not travel to Waziristan or settle their and spread your political views (Communism, secularism, un-Islamic traditions etc.) and see how successful you will end up to be.

[abassinafghan]

before being concerd about our communists

remove the jews in riad , in jiddah , in aman , in marrakesh ,in abu dhabi ........


2 brezensinski next to kissinger is on of the main reasons for our current situation , the interview which brezinski gave in 98 is no secret but till today people watch charlie wilson fiction books and strange stories .