Message Of Felicitation Of The Esteemed Amir-Ul-Momineen On The Occasion Of Eid-Ul-F

[khushal]

I asked you for evidence ....

Well to be fair you did not have evidence of what I asked for. So I will concede I cant provide any evidence for what you ask for. The moghul and safawid power and influence were waning so that is when the Hotaki took advantage and broke free. But It is not impossible that they would get some support from the moghuls since they were sunni and they viewed the safawids as their greatest threat and not the pashtuns. Since hindsight is 20/20, later on the persian nadir shaw did got to delhi and ransacked it.

the Turkish one I'll concede but the Turks were in no way trying to kill Pashtuns to serve while serving another Imperialist power and harming Afghans, but were allies with the Afghans......Pakistan has been an enemy of Afghans and Muslims in general ...and is helping Infidels .targeting Muslims ..and supports a group that pretends to be Muslim. Mir Wais killed many Persians who were occupying and oppressing his people. ....Taliban are oppressing the people they're claiming to liberate by a country that is Helping Imperialists oppress their people.

I would like to say I am not defending Pakistan here but I do want to explain why alliances and support is going in the direction it is going. So your analysis of Pakistan as a baighyrata enemy of humanity is correct.
The Taliban perceive that the ones they are killing are the enemies of Afghans and are aiding the imperialists. Mirwais neeka was no different, wazir akbar khan was no different. They both killed Afghans and non afghans whom they perceived as enemies.

But we are going back to our old debate in the thread that was deleted about Aid. I was explaining that because of the pushtuns location and lack of resources, the pashtuns no mater who they whether its Karzai, masood, fahim, hekmatyar, omar hotak, ismael khan, etc will be forced to be aided because the countries economy can not support its people whether during peace times or war times. It has always depended on foreign aid. The only reason the mirwais neeka succeeded(and still with aid) was because moghul and safawids power and influence waned.

By the way it's a misnomer, that Sunni Arabs are helping Taliban, Khariji Wahhabis from Saudi Arabia and Dubai are helping....Egypt.....Syrian Sunnis,, Iraqi Sunnis, ..Yemeni Sunnis by and large have no widescale support for the Taliban. the Wahhabi States and Pakistan are also both ALLIES to America, Yemeni Sunnis, Egyptian Sunnis are repelling American proxies in the Middle East.

no matter how you cut it the analysis is totally inconsistent.

While you are right that most of the support comes from the rich arab states who can afford support and who has the most to lose if iran influence grows. The other arab states have their own problems and cant really lend support. Egypt, jordan, PLO, are totally financially aided by america just like pakistan is and the rich arab states are totally militarily aided by america and Afghanistan is finacially and militarily funded by america.
while yemen and egyptian sunnis are trying to repel american proxies, they are in a different situation. They are different societies structured differently and are in a more economical suitable location. Afghanistan does not have those luxeries.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Egypt WAS supported by the U.S., Palestinian PLO, doesn't even factor into this discussion so far. My point still stands that Sunni Arabs are not unanimously in support of the Taliban, while the Pakistani establishment covertly are doing it.

What I said about Mir Wais, was deductive reasoning, he opposed the Safawids because of their harm, Taliban embrace the ISI INSPITE of their harm. In Mir Wais' based on what we know, this is treachery. And we know that the Hotakan would not hesitate to end treacherous members of their clan. Mullah Omar being hotak (although I'm in doubt of that) would not equate his beghairat Pakistani slave nature to the Righteousness of Mir Wais Khan Hotak.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I asked you for evidence ....the Turkish one I'll concede but the Turks were in no way trying to kill Pashtuns to serve while serving another Imperialist power and harming Afghans, but were allies with the Afghans......Pakistan has been an enemy of Afghans and Muslims in general ...and is helping Infidels .targeting Muslims ..and supports a group that pretends to be Muslim. Mir Wais killed many Persians who were occupying and oppressing his people. ....Taliban are oppressing the people they're claiming to liberate by a country that is Helping Imperialists oppress their people.

By the way it's a misnomer, that Sunni Arabs are helping Taliban, Khariji Wahhabis from Saudi Arabia and Dubai are helping....Egypt.....Syrian Sunnis,, Iraqi Sunnis, ..Yemeni Sunnis by and large have no widescale support for the Taliban. the Wahhabi States and Pakistan are also both ALLIES to America, Yemeni Sunnis, Egyptian Sunnis are repelling American proxies in the Middle East.

no matter how you cut it the analysis is totally inconsistent.

It might be a little more complex right? After all, Hamid Karzai has multiple enemies at this point:

1) Northern Alliance factions
2) Pakistan because of his Simla associations and generation inclination to neutralize Pakistani influence in Afghanistan with Indians support (the increased presence of Indians economically and government wise):

"Clearly, Afghanistan’s battered infrastructure needs this help and much more. Like all foreign aid, however, India’s aid has come with accompaniments the Hamid Karzai regime fully accepts, but which tend to drive Pakistan’s government—and especially its general officers—to distraction and deep strategic worry. New Delhi, for example, has built one of its biggest embassies in the world in Kabul, and with it has built four consulates—some media reports say as many as seven—two of which, in Jalalabad and Kandahar, face Afghanistan’s border with Pakistan."

http://the-diplomat.com/2010/08/30/t...ar-flashpoint/

So this is Pakistan's motivations for dealing with Karzai.

3) The Taliban: for obvious reasons, though it appears that they themselves are not necessarily as avid to kill him as they were his brother as they viewed Ahmad Wali as a CIA collaborator:

"All in all, the most striking aspect of the Taliban statement is that it deftly sidesteps President Karzai. He is not bracketed with Ahmad Wali's "crimes"."

http://atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/MG16Df02.html

So if the Taliban were to have had a meeting with Hamid Gul and a discussion took place regarding such a plan, a strong differential diagnosis is common interest versus equal interest.

In fact, per this Frontline documentary, the Taliban recognize that this relationship with the ISI is detrimental. One Talib on this video indicates that a strategic partnership exists and laments the double game that forces them to be reliant on the ISI for their own strategic depth, but at the same time to be killed at the whim of the ISI to diffuse some US pressure:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/kill-capture/

Moreover, if we look at the actual wikileaked file, it was information that was collected by NDS agents. Are we really to believe that the NDS under Saleh had all its ducks in a row? How is the NDS any different than the ISI? The NDS itself has had a hard time with Karzai. If the plot were "botched" as the memo describes, but by the NDS, the NDS would have a competency problem to answer for on their hands. It is just as likely that the NDS generated this supposed meeting as most of this mirrors Amrullah Saleh's platform lingo.

Moreover, Hamid Gul is probably and was probably being watched like a hawk... Central Intelligence, which has now proven its capability to track even the likes of OBL himself would have no hard time tracking and/or killing Taliban shura folks were such a meeting to occur.

4) Abdullah Azzam also was based on Pakistani soil. Although he and OBL had issues with the ISI/CIA etc, they still utilized Pakistani soil as a forward operating base of sorts. Had the muj factions and Azzam all packed up and set up shop in southern Afghanistan to avoid any associations at all with Pakistan simply out of this principle that Pakistan is a British creation... they would have been killed within the first 2 days of the struggle. To blame an ill equipped gorilla force like the Taliban for using Pakistani soil and resources to fight the superiorly armed super power would need to be addressed with a reasonable strategy as a replacement. If the answer you give relies on comparing the strategies of the Azzam faction in the 80s era with now, that is like comparing apples and oranges as Azzam's faction was not being squeezed from both sides.

5) Suicide attacks, as Hoh wrote in the Nation rise commensurate with the presence of NATO. We can both agree that this tactic is not optimal, but it comes out to play when assymetric balances are struck. Take care of the disease (Western Imperialism) and the symptoms of the disease will melt away. The same went for the post invasion attacks on minorities. Recall my citation of the status of Sikhs pre and post invasion.

6) I think two concrete examples demonstrate that the Taliban are not necessarily pure ISI proxies:

The Taliban refused to recognize the durand line:

http://www.institute-for-afghan-stud...urand_line.htm

"But this is exactly the point any political observer would make. If a tribe is so cohesively entwined, how could any imaginary line divide it? But the Friday Times report also deals with other aspects of the visit. It says: “However, he (Ahmed) could not explain why it was important for the Taleban interior minister to come to Mohmand Agency all the way from Kabul. According to one malik (chieftain) of the Khoizai tribe, the Taliban expressed anger at the Mohmand sub-tribes' urge to get Pakistani identity cards. "This is our land. We will give you the (identity) cards," the malik quoted one Taliban delegation member as saying at a tea party, attended among other chieftains by Malik Fazal Manan, a former member of Pakistan's national assembly. During one of the ceremonies, the delegation also hoisted the Taliban flag at Khapakh.” It is worth mentioning that the visit had scared the Pakistani government so much so that it went ahead and arrested two tribal chieftains namely Malik Abid and Malik Naseem for interrogation and released them after 72 hours."

The second incident was the arrest of Mullah Baradar.

SXE, I think we all can agree that no one ought to equate the Taliban with a modern day resurrection of the sahabaa and dare to assume that Mullah Omar Hotak is equal in administrative or justice dealing capabilities as the beloved Umar ibn Al Khattab... but he is a far cry from a British agent equivalent like Jinnah who sought to execute his masters will, lock, stock, and barrell.

Addendum:

The Mullah Zaeef quote about the multiple faced nature of the ISI is now famous and need not be requoted by me... but it is an additional evidence that this is a complex discussion and not as simple as folks like Toramana would make it seem where every Talib is an ISI agent with secret Panjabi blood dressed like a Pashtun. Where Zaeef himself likely misses the complexity is that the ISI itself is a mish mash of zealots, punch drunk secularists, nationalists, and double agents.

[khushal]

Egypt WAS supported by the U.S., Palestinian PLO, doesn't even factor into this discussion so far. My point still stands that Sunni Arabs are not unanimously in support of the Taliban, while the Pakistani establishment covertly are doing it.

What I said about Mir Wais, was deductive reasoning, he opposed the Safawids because of their harm, Taliban embrace the ISI INSPITE of their harm. In Mir Wais' based on what we know, this is treachery. And we know that the Hotakan would not hesitate to end treacherous members of their clan. Mullah Omar being hotak (although I'm in doubt of that) would not equate his beghairat Pakistani slave nature to the Righteousness of Mir Wais Khan Hotak.

Egypt STILL IS getting AID, the aid is conditional on the peace treaty with Israel. Im saying the poor arabs are all funded by the US so how could they fund the Taliban besides its the gulf arabs that have the most to lose. i never said that Sunni Arabs unanimously support the Taliban, thats impossible. There are some that support Israel.

What I said about the moghuls supporting their enemies enemy was deductive reasoning. The Taliban perceives NATO as the greater threat because it is them that have boots on the ground while the ISI support is limited and not direct. It is impossible to control the Afghans unless you have boots on the ground and even that is a challenge as the US is realizing. Omar Hotak does not have the same opportunity as Mir Wais when Moghul and safwids power and influence was waning. This war is different from mir wais nekas time. Omar hotaks enemies are far more powerful.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Egypt WAS supported by the U.S., Palestinian PLO, doesn't even factor into this discussion so far. My point still stands that Sunni Arabs are not unanimously in support of the Taliban, while the Pakistani establishment covertly are doing it.

What I said about Mir Wais, was deductive reasoning, he opposed the Safawids because of their harm, Taliban embrace the ISI INSPITE of their harm. In Mir Wais' based on what we know, this is treachery. And we know that the Hotakan would not hesitate to end treacherous members of their clan. Mullah Omar being hotak (although I'm in doubt of that) would not equate his beghairat Pakistani slave nature to the Righteousness of Mir Wais Khan Hotak.

Once again it depends. Ahmad Shah Abdali served in Sunni Nadir Qoli Beg's cavalry. An overwhelming majority of his Iranian army compatriots were Shiites. Would Mir Wais have ended Abdali as well? Omar was born in Deh Rawud, well entrenched in Kheljyaan territory. And once again, we would have to hear from Omar what sort of embrace he gives to the ISI as we see in what I noted above. If the embrace is strategic, then Azzam is as guilty, if the embrace is to extend Zardari and Kiyani's rule over Afghanistan then that is a different story.

Once thing to consider is the choice of the capital. Up to then, the power and wealth center of the Afghan state was Kabul. It was by Omar's choice that Kandahar became that capital of the Afghan state under their era. Power projection out of Kabul would have been far more beneficial for the ISI. Its as Mike Scheuer says... you can pay an Afghan, but he will do what he wants anyway.

[RanadahRanadah]

Unity of all Pashtons/Afghans for the sake of their full rights restoration as dignifed nation on earth among other nation is the answer unity is the best solution for all that will safeguard all their rights in full whoever is supporting unity is true afghans/pashtons those who do not are either foregin agent or the enemy of Afghans/pashtons!

[AFG21]

I am about to catch you up in a trap of your own making. I am proud of you for one reason and one reason alone... you were very honest here at this link:


Here were your OWN words. Please pay special attention to the underlined parts. You were truthful there and did something that many of comrades in here in the past, from Mostafa to Toramana to the whole lot of them were unwilling to do: admit that the rural masses have a different perception of governance than do the elite or the Westernized Muslim population. I think only Osho before you was able to concede that he wanted to SUBVERT the will of his countrymen and was unabashed. You more than admitted that the Taliban's value system overlaps and reconciles quiet a bit more with the masses and made, with your own words, a solid argument for why they, or some acceptable equivalent, is more in line with the aspirations of the Afghan people.:




Your words alone.... not mine. Let us supplement this with scholarly views that affirm something that Mostafa and others are in idealistic denial of, namely that Taliban represent the rural Pashtun far better than available options.:

Here is an article by Dr. Kakar, a notable, renowned, but an ANTI Taliban Pashtun historian CONCEDES the same point you did above:

“In reality, the traditional way of life in villages has changed little by Taliban's rule. The situation of Afghans in the countryside controlled by the Taliban has improved because of increased peace and security, giving them the opportunity to rebuild after two decades of war. But this security comes at a cost. Forced recruitment of young men to fight the ever bloody war of attrition against the Northern alliance has depleted the man-power from these rural centers. In the cities and urban centers, the more modern and liberal way of life conflicts sharply with that of the Taliban's social and religious values.

Now, the Americans also are beginning to admit this very same point, regarding the Taliban being, in the least, a representative of the rural religious tradition:

“History tells a different story. The conflict is very complex, multi-dimensional and goes back three decades. In 2001–02 we installed a government in Kabul headed by Karzai. In doing this, we backed one side in a long civil war—the more progressive-secular and urban camp, Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras, and some Pashtuns and those who live in the north and west. But it excluded one-third of Afghans, the rural, religious, traditional camp, who are Pashtuns in the south and east—which include the Taliban—whose forerunners we backed in 1980s, against the Soviets.
http://www.thenation.com/article/157...-insider-talks

Now to combat this reality (that the Taliban are certainly the best representation of the will of the rural masses, these same folks come up with the nonsense that the Taliban seek to inflict ISI hegemony on all of Afghanistan. They point to the monetary backing and “strategic depth” they afforded the Quetta shura as proof. Hogwash, I respond emphatically. Why? Well, take the example of Abdul Rasul Sayyaf, esteemed in some circles and derided in others. His value system means little to us in this analysis. What we know for sure is that he very likely had American backing and arms at some point during the Russo-Afghan war. Now to say that he was fighting to inflict American ideologies onto Afghanistan, so that Afghan school children could forget Pashto and recite the Pledge of allegiance, and replace Ahmad Shah Baba with Washington Baba is such an absurd thesis that if you recite it to a street fakeer he will show you all of his teeth. This is as absurd as the allegation that the Taliban seek to create Panjabistan solely because of their strategic assetts.

So then, what occurs again and again here is that the nationalists in support of Achekzai and his marxist ilk, and the Afghan elites in support of bygone days of Zahir Shah, Daud Khan, and (sickly enough) Najib create a flat earth society, reality defying narrative where every Pashtun was ready to do his comrade walk or buddy up in a pluralistic society with hindus.

You at least were brave enough to admit that you hold no such illusions. Then, let us speak in plain terms per your own quote above:

1) Why do you feel that you know what is best for the Afghan people?
2) Why do you suppose it is your right and NATOs right to subvert their will (which you admit) and to hoist upon them a secular system foreign to their way of life in some regard?
3) Have you not read history and not understood that generally, imposing such a system on a people rarely results in acceptance? Rather, a reactionary mindset settles in and radicalism increases as a response to occupation. It took nearly 1000 years for democracy to reach the American way, from Runny Meade in Britain, when King John ceded his power to the parliament, to the modern era. For you to think that it is correct to force your westernized views of what is right for not onto the native populace is a subversion of the right of a people to evolve their own way of governance autonomously (rubbish to whatever these folks assert and scream at this point regarding Saudi/Pakistani/Iranian hegemony… this is propaganda, pure and simple and they know it… it need not even be acknowledged.)
4) Dogs rights, womens rights, child labor laws etc… this appears to be the shining light you hold onto as set of privileges we must back the West in imposing on the Afghan people. How absurd. We are talking about a country where brutal warlords are being put back into power by the same modernizing NATO power you seek our support for, and you want to lead us to believe that they will erase thousands of years of customs, tribalism, and a way of life and replace it, no strings attached, with an enlightened modernistic government system that turns the countryside of Jalalabad into Los Angelas? The progression of individual rights in the US took hundreds of years. Black men were afforded the right to vote before women suffrage movements were able to propel a discussion about the 19th amendment into the public arena. Initially, in the US the fight was about who would get vote amongst white men à then who would get vote amongst men à then women were afforded the right to vote nearly 200 years after the American experience initiated on these shores à Under Kennedy further delineations were made regarding rights of all races/Civil rights. And these were the changes instituted on a people by themselves for their own gain to propel their own advancement. What makes you naïve enough to think that this nation, out for its own gain, as all empires are, will bestow such graces on you for your advancement by 2024?

I don't claim that what I know is the best, but it is in my vieuw and so many other peopel vieuws, better than what the Taliban have to offer, I want Afghanistan to be a devoloped nation, I don't want to wait another 100 or 1000 years before this mass will realise what they are doing is not correct. I didn't say that NATO and US have to change Afghanistan. I want that Afghans realise them self that taliban are no good and come whith another alternative, it don't have to be secular, it can be islamic. And you don't have to be a genius to realise that wat the taliban did and what they wont now is actually unacceptable.
Like in any other country, small individulas began whith a change, sometimes the mass didn't accept that because they didn't saw the good in it. Like in Europe when women where aloved to vote do you really think that the majority of men were happy whith that, No. They didn't want that, but the goverment stil accepted the law. And now evereone in Europe don't even question if women are allowed to vote or not. When in China the cultural revolution tooke place do you think the majority were happy, No they were againts it, but the goverment forced them and now they are accepted the changes and are becoming worlds supper power. This was just a few examples, there are many changes that hapend in this world that began whith a smal group of individuals who wanted to inlight there country and leed it to progress.
The bigest problem whith Afghanistan is. Is that each time when Afghanistan gets a chance to develope or to change, our neighbours manipulate this rural peopel and set them against our goverment. They manipulate them to think that how they leave now is the only good way, not that they say to them be extrime they are extrime, the mindset of our rural peopel didn't change since 1929. I know what I have said in that other post. I have leaved in Khost in a village, I know how rural peopel are. Like when Amanullah Khan wanted to devolope Afghanistan. England manipulated them to raise against him, to say that he is a kafir and wants to destroy Islam. But we all know that is noncense becuase his Laws were all based on Sharia, only some were not really Islamic. Becuase of his deprature Afghanistan was frozen in time. Only the cities changed and also the cities where majority were Farsiwan, they had some contact whithe the modern world. In the 70s the qhalk and parchamies were not the most honest or the most good peopel on this planet, but they were the reaction to this 50 years of sleeping. They wanted Afghanistan to wake up and to devolope, But again the rural mass didn;t want that. The rural mass was not stronger than the goverment now, the goverment could have controled them but our neighbours saw that if Afghanistan become strong this will be not so good for there countries. Pakistan didn´t want to give the pashtun lands to Afghanistan and Iran didn´t want to have a secular Commie like country as aneighbour. So they gave wapons and money to them. This kind of thing is now whith Taliban they where traind in Pakistan recived money from the US/Arabs/Pakis to fight and weaken us. I know that our chance to have a secular goverment is gone. But even if there will come an Islamic based goverment that can alowe the peopel to devolope and after time to change and become a better country, I would accept that. The problems where actually not completly whith the rurals. Most of the modern Afghan leaders wanted to change to fast, and you are right about that we have to change our country in our own way, but taliban don't want any change.
I am just sick and tired of Taliban and there stupidity, there waghshie way of live, I want culture, education, devolopment. I want that when peopel think of Afghanistan they would think about a beautiful country whith smart and educated peopel in stead of bearded apes who thinks that if you watch tv,listen to music, alowe women in public space whitout a burqa, waire jins or other western clothes, its a schame and haram. And do you know way the rural peopel and taliban have so much in comon, they are both besiwad and folow more old cultural habits than Islam. And culture must change. Pashtunwali is not writen in stone, Pashtunwali is not din, like any onter culture if its not gona evolve and change whith time it will be destoyd and forgoten.

I am an idealist, meybe becuase I am still young that I think that Afghanistan some day will be a stabel and progressive country, but still, I would not give up my hoope for a better future, becuase like my father sayed you have to have high standarts and ideals to succeed in this world.

AND PLEASE STOP ASSUMING THAT I AM PRO NATO AND US, I AM ONLY PRO MODERNISTION ENLIGHTMENT AN PROGRESS AND BECUASE TALIBAN ARE NOT WILLING TO CONTRUBUTE IN THAT I AM AGAINST TALIBAN. AND BECUASE NATO AND US ARE JUST USING US I AM AGAINST THEM TO.

P.S.
( I wrote this whitout cheking spelling mistakes so please just read over it, I didn't have any time, I am really busy)

[ScimitarXEdge]

Once again it depends. Ahmad Shah Abdali served in Sunni Nadir Qoli Beg's cavalry. An overwhelming majority of his Iranian army compatriots were Shiites. Would Mir Wais have ended Abdali as well?

Hotakan and Sadoziyan were long time rivals in Afghanistan, this halcyon of some type of Grand Pashtun/Afghan Nationalism probably never unanimously existed. In All likeliness Hotaks motives were primarily from Sunni Orthodoxy. Which he conferred with the Shayukh of the Hijaz to finally strategize a plan against the Safawids. On that account he quite possibly would have opposed Abdali.

Our history isn't as neat and clean ad we'd like to believe it was.

Omar was born in Deh Rawud, well entrenched in Kheljyaan territory. And once again, we would have to hear from Omar what sort of embrace he gives to the ISI as we see in what I noted above. If the embrace is strategic, then Azzam is as guilty, if the embrace is to extend Zardari and Kiyani's rule over Afghanistan then that is a different story.

According to Ahmed Rashid, a staunch opponent of the Pakistani Government and Noted Whistle Blower. Mullah Muhammad Umar was born in Naw Deh in Kandahar other sources claim Sangsar, pro-Taliban sources claimed Uruzgan. Where he was born isn't so much the issue but it demonstrates that there is a high probability that Mullah Umar may in fact be nothing more than a mythified fabrication, emphasizing the fact he's a Hotak to play off of some backdated local rivalry between Hotak and Sadozai to galvanize the Taliban.

There is no arguing that the Taliban-ISI nexus is motivated by strategy, this is obvious and no one is breaking any new ground by stating this. The question to be asked is who's strategy and for what aims? In the logic of strategy, if we examine it from an ecological stand point, alliances are based on symbiosis and such a symbiotic survival strategy is based on mutualism. If it becomes Parasitic , then one entity benefits at the expense of the other. This is equally applicable in regards to the Imperial Nexus in relation to the puppet Govt. , Pakistan is compliant with Imperial Hegemonic Interests, which in turn are aimed at Galvanizing it to occupy Afghanistan, at the benefit of gaining American AID, resources and support, which in turn means that the Taliban-Pakistani relationship is not one of mutual support against American Imperialism; but rather parasitism in which Pakistan via the Taliban benefit from American support, who in turn place Afghanistan in harms way by galvanizing the American hegemonic establishment.

With all due respect; you're merely repeating what Ashraf said in previous posts, which I gave more or less a similar response. That crucial point of how if Pakistan and Taiban are mutual allies against American Imperialism, that Pakistan is working for American Imperialism; if you concede that Pakistan and Taliban are in strategic alliance. If you reject the Pakistani-Taliban alliance, which is undeniable fact at this point, then why aren't the Taliban making equal strategy against Pakistani officials and government members for enabling Imperalist Hegemony as it does for Afghanistan.

Once thing to consider is the choice of the capital. Up to then, the power and wealth center of the Afghan state was Kabul. It was by Omar's choice that Kandahar became that capital of the Afghan state under their era. Power projection out of Kabul would have been far more beneficial for the ISI. Its as Mike Scheuer says... you can pay an Afghan, but he will do what he wants anyway.

If that was true there would have been no need for focusing on Kabul at all, the fact the taking of Kabul was paramount, shows that the ISI understood how Kabul being the only thing close to a quasi-modernized city was crucial to control. The take of Kandahar was really symbolic to manufactured initial Pashtun support., giving a "Pashtun" face to a Pakistani agenda.

Michael Scheuer's statement isn't an unbending truth, proof is the fact that 34 Million Pashtuns, exist as servants of Pakistan.

[unknownprince]

[QUOTE]

Hotakan and Sadoziyan were long time rivals in Afghanistan

If you had more than a WIKIPEDIA knowledge of this, you would have also known that the Hotaki and Abdali are related through several marriages. This is not news at all. You could have done further "research" instead of depending on the internet.

Our history isn't as neat and clean ad we'd like to believe it was.

The history presented by Wikipedia and google suggest this, but reality indicates otherwise.

According to Ahmed Rashid, a staunch opponent of the Pakistani Government and Noted Whistle Blower.

Ahmad Rashid is a PUNJABI PAKISTANI who has supported the US war on Afghanistan. If this is where you get your info from, please quit embarrassing yourself.

Mullah Muhammad Umar was born in Naw Deh in Kandahar other sources claim Sangsar, pro-Taliban sources claimed Uruzgan.

Barakzai got it right. You on the other hand are regurgitating Wikipedia discussion about Mullah Muhammad Omar. You really do not fail to make a clown out of yourself. Is Wikipedia your homepage?

Where he was born isn't so much the issue but it demonstrates that there is a high probability that Mullah Umar may in fact be nothing more than a mythified fabrication, emphasizing the fact he's a Hotak to play off of some backdated local rivalry between Hotak and Sadozai to galvanize the Taliban.

Actually, unlike you, he has never claimed to be Hotak. Please show your sources that he did. He has never spoken about himself like you or anyone else. Others have spoken of him.

There is no tribalism in opposition the the US war against Afghanistan. In fact just to hone in on the point, there are many Popalzai who are against the US.

With all due respect; you're merely repeating what Ashraf said in previous posts, which I gave more or less a similar response. That crucial point of how if Pakistan and Taiban are mutual allies against American Imperialism, that Pakistan is working for American Imperialism;

While Barakzai may be more polite and refined in his responses, I won't

With all due respect, your responses are absurd and retarded. According to you illogical views, the Vietnamese resistance was invalid since they got support from both Russia and China. The Korean resistance was also invalid due to the same reasons. ACTUALLY, according to you, ALL RESISTANCE MOVEMENTS IN THE WORLD ARE INVALID.

In regards to Pakistan, they have no legit claim to Pashtun land in Pakistan, and it will be wise for them to continue to leave those areas alone.

In regards to your other stupid claim, Pakistan is put in check by the tribes already.

It ill do you well to stop relying on google and wikipedia, and regurgitating their info. you lack a solid foundation of the facts on the ground. Denying them does not make them false at all- just further shows how stupid wikipedia info is.

[ScimitarXEdge]

If you had more than a WIKIPEDIA knowledge of this, you would have also known that the Hotaki and Abdali are related through several marriages. This is not news at all. You could have done further "research" instead of depending on the internet.

The history presented by Wikipedia and google suggest this, but reality indicates otherwise.

This is merely a rhetorical accusation; you have shown no evidence that "only" wikipedia is the source of these claims nor have you shown any evidence that these assertions are false.

How are intermarriages inconsistent with rivalry? Isn't it common for rival clans to trade brides because they have conflict?

where is your evidence that the claim that Sadoziyan and Hotakan weren't rivals .....if your claim is that they had intermarriages, then that is beyond horse crap, for the reasons I mentioned above.

Ahmad Rashid is a PUNJABI PAKISTANI who has supported the US war on Afghanistan. If this is where you get your info from, please quit embarrassing yourself.

you're a racist and ignorant moron; on one hand you argue against racism and ethnicism ...and then when it is convenient you play the ethnic card like a typical beghairat munafiq.

here you are dividing Muslims along ethnic lines, did you forget there are Muslim Punjabis too?

Also, the part addressing schemes by Anti-Muslims/anti-Afghans in dividing the country along ethnic lines was clear.
.

Ahmed Rashid is more against Pakistan, than even you and your fellow Pakistani Slaves, he actually fought Pakistan while you sent your sisters to America to play soccer in American Christian Schools

LAHORE, Pakistan

FRESH out of Cambridge University in the late 1960s, and steeped in the era’s favorites — Marx, Mao and Che — Ahmed Rashid took off for the hills of Baluchistan, a dry, tough patch of western Pakistan. He stayed for 10 years.

He was a guerrilla fighter and political organizer, and with a couple of like-minded Pakistani pals, led peasants seeking autonomy against the Pakistani Army. He emerged, after bouts of hepatitis, malaria and lost teeth, not exactly disillusioned but defeated, he recalled recently from the comfort of his study overlooking a garden of palms.

Barakzai got it right. You on the other hand are regurgitating Wikipedia discussion about Mullah Muhammad Omar. You really do not fail to make a clown out of yourself. Is Wikipedia your homepage?

then prove it wrong with EVIDENCE, if it's all just coming from Wikipedia.

Actually, unlike you, he has never claimed to be Hotak. Please show your sources that he did. He has never spoken about himself like you or anyone else. Others have spoken of him.

Exactly, which means it is all probably manufactured by the ISI, read my post again, I never claimed that "HE claimed", I said "IT IS CLAIMED", and the claims seem to be sourced to the Pakistani ISI.

which you seem to peddle

There is no tribalism in opposition the the US war against Afghanistan. In fact just to hone in on the point, there are many Popalzai who are against the US.

that's not what I said though, you're making a logical fallacy called a Straw Man argument. Just like there are many Hotakan and Ghilzai who are against the Taliban, but the claim here.

Read my remark carefully, I said the Pakistani ISI are attempting to exploited outdated Ethnic Rivalries to stir animosity and dividing lines by creating this false persona of a "Ghilzai" Taliban and a "Sadozai" Government

While Barakzai may be more polite and refined in his responses, I won't

With all due respect, your responses are absurd and retarded. According to you illogical views, the Vietnamese resistance was invalid since they got support from both Russia and China. The Korean resistance was also invalid due to the same reasons. ACTUALLY, according to you, ALL RESISTANCE MOVEMENTS IN THE WORLD ARE INVALID.

This is where your illogical views are at work; China and Russia were not secretly or overtly cooperating with the United States against the Vietkong, and were overtly against the U.S.; Pakistan supports the U.S. invasion, cooperates with them, and yet is trying to fund and support the Taliban. At the expense of the locals, that's what makes Taliban illegitimate.

a resistance isn't cooperating with a participant who is cooperating with your adversary.

In regards to Pakistan, they have no legit claim to Pashtun land in Pakistan, and it will be wise for them to continue to leave those areas alone.

and yet you think their support for the Taliban is unconditional?

In regards to your other stupid claim, Pakistan is put in check by the tribes already.

you seem to like contradicting yourself, you just admitted that the Taliban are supported by Pakistan and saw it as "valid support for resistance". Of course Pashtun tribes spit at Pakistan, because Pakistanis are supporting the Taliban.

It ill do you well to stop relying on google and wikipedia, and regurgitating their info. you lack a solid foundation of the facts on the ground. Denying them does not make them false at all- just further shows how stupid wikipedia info is.

With all these accusations of using wikipedia information; which would not in itself refute the claims from a Logical STandpoint as there is no such "Wikipedia" logical fallacy; you have yet to demonstrate one piece of evidence to support your refutation or claims that "this is all laughable"

[ScimitarXEdge]

Egypt STILL IS getting AID, the aid is conditional on the peace treaty with Israel. Im saying the poor arabs are all funded by the US so how could they fund the Taliban besides its the gulf arabs that have the most to lose. i never said that Sunni Arabs unanimously support the Taliban, thats impossible. There are some that support Israel.

What I said about the moghuls supporting their enemies enemy was deductive reasoning. The Taliban perceives NATO as the greater threat because it is them that have boots on the ground while the ISI support is limited and not direct. It is impossible to control the Afghans unless you have boots on the ground and even that is a challenge as the US is realizing. Omar Hotak does not have the same opportunity as Mir Wais when Moghul and safwids power and influence was waning. This war is different from mir wais nekas time. Omar hotaks enemies are far more powerful.

Oh and is that why most Egyptians oppose U.S. AID?
Egyptians Oppose U.S. Aid to Political Groups

Your deductive reasoning is fragmented, Pakistan is collaborating with NATO, hence would be apart of that NATO block making Pakistan equilateral enemies. ISI support is nether limited NOR indirect. Pakistani are also allowing Drones, making attacks on Militant hideouts in Pakistan, sending military personel to border regions. So this nullifies any justifiable legitimacy for taliban association with the ISI. Umar Hotak is all in ll most likely a fabrication by the Pakistani ISI, the only people who claim to have met him are or were at one time open collaborators with the ISI, God knows Best. The Moghul support doesn't seem to have any support, even if we factor deductive reasoning.

where is your information from that Egypt is still going to receive U.S. AID?

[unknownprince]

No offense, but there is almost no way to speak to you without being disrespectful.

AHMAD RASHID supports the US war against Afghanistan. Is this who you champion?

You are no longer worth engaging with. Just because your google/wikipedia BS fails to find info on a man, it means BULL SHIIIT.

Real men don't obsess about this and that. No one in Afghanistan LIES about their tribal background. Stuff like that is hard to fabricate. You really are a frustrated person, when you post sources from people who support the US war on Afghanistan, and claim them to be FACTS, but then deny FACTS and call whatever you don't like as false. This is ridiculously LOW and pathetic.




Your views of the ISI hysteria are only in line with ethnocentric pimps like Saleh and Spanta.

Continue spitting that crap you pervert.

PASHTUN AREAS IN PAKISTAN ARE NOT CONTROLLED BY YOUR PAKISTANI FREINDS

[unknownprince]

Pakistan was forced with money and coercion to play a double game. Contrast this with nuclear armed North Korea who for lack of a better term show the whole world the middle finger. Mind-set matters in this world, and nations are either slave like or free. Pakistan and India both got their "independence" not out of a armed resistance, but pretty much through begging. Hence, the consequences for such a feeble path are seen today where they have no independent foreign policy at all. Indians and Pakistanis are similar after all.


Hekmatyar urges Pakistan, Iran to end US support


Hekmatyar urges Pakistan, Iran to end US support

Saturday, September 03, 2011






PESHAWAR: Former Afghan prime minister Engineer Gulbadin Hekmatyar has urged Pakistan and Iran to stop supporting Americans against Afghan nation.

In his message issued on Eidul Fitr, he said the United States had also prepared the same plan for Pakistan and Iran like that of Afghanistan and Iraq. Governments of Pakistan and Iran should stop searching their own benefits in the blood of Afghans, Hekmatyar, who is chief of Hizeb-e-Islami, said. The Afghan resistance leader rejected the formation of peace commission, saying the withdrawal of foreign forces from Afghanistan was the only solution to Afghan crisis.

Hehmatyar observed the recently formed peace commission was making hollow slogans and was trying to create groups within Mujahideen on the basis of dollars, but only the fools could be deceived as the American were searching honourable way out from Afghanistan.

Without naming anybody, he said some (of leaders) within the commission had invited American to attack Afghanistan and had also asked Iran to control Hirat, Mazar and Takhar and later handed over it to them. The same forces, he said had control over the Afghan army and police, and were fighting under American command against Afghan nation. He said majority of the Afghan nation had not participated in Afghan elections, which was a drama staged by the Americans to bring those people in power, who had already sold their loyalties. He said Americans had no other choice expect withdrawal from Afghanistan.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Hotakan and Sadoziyan were long time rivals in Afghanistan, this halcyon of some type of Grand Pashtun/Afghan Nationalism probably never unanimously existed. In All likeliness Hotaks motives were primarily from Sunni Orthodoxy. Which he conferred with the Shayukh of the Hijaz to finally strategize a plan against the Safawids. On that account he quite possibly would have opposed Abdali.

Our history isn't as neat and clean ad we'd like to believe it was.




According to Ahmed Rashid, a staunch opponent of the Pakistani Government and Noted Whistle Blower. Mullah Muhammad Umar was born in Naw Deh in Kandahar other sources claim Sangsar, pro-Taliban sources claimed Uruzgan. Where he was born isn't so much the issue but it demonstrates that there is a high probability that Mullah Umar may in fact be nothing more than a mythified fabrication, emphasizing the fact he's a Hotak to play off of some backdated local rivalry between Hotak and Sadozai to galvanize the Taliban.

There is no arguing that the Taliban-ISI nexus is motivated by strategy, this is obvious and no one is breaking any new ground by stating this. The question to be asked is who's strategy and for what aims? In the logic of strategy, if we examine it from an ecological stand point, alliances are based on symbiosis and such a symbiotic survival strategy is based on mutualism. If it becomes Parasitic , then one entity benefits at the expense of the other. This is equally applicable in regards to the Imperial Nexus in relation to the puppet Govt. , Pakistan is compliant with Imperial Hegemonic Interests, which in turn are aimed at Galvanizing it to occupy Afghanistan, at the benefit of gaining American AID, resources and support, which in turn means that the Taliban-Pakistani relationship is not one of mutual support against American Imperialism; but rather parasitism in which Pakistan via the Taliban benefit from American support, who in turn place Afghanistan in harms way by galvanizing the American hegemonic establishment.

With all due respect; you're merely repeating what Ashraf said in previous posts, which I gave more or less a similar response. That crucial point of how if Pakistan and Taiban are mutual allies against American Imperialism, that Pakistan is working for American Imperialism; if you concede that Pakistan and Taliban are in strategic alliance. If you reject the Pakistani-Taliban alliance, which is undeniable fact at this point, then why aren't the Taliban making equal strategy against Pakistani officials and government members for enabling Imperalist Hegemony as it does for Afghanistan.



If that was true there would have been no need for focusing on Kabul at all, the fact the taking of Kabul was paramount, shows that the ISI understood how Kabul being the only thing close to a quasi-modernized city was crucial to control. The take of Kandahar was really symbolic to manufactured initial Pashtun support., giving a "Pashtun" face to a Pakistani agenda.

Michael Scheuer's statement isn't an unbending truth, proof is the fact that 34 Million Pashtuns, exist as servants of Pakistan.

Lets discuss this in two separate responses.
While it is true that the Dorani Pashtuns and the Khiljiaan were rivals, the lines were not so clear cut even in those days. I can give you a solid example, in Kandahar and Helmand province/Uruzgun and the areas, the discussion of Mir Wais Neka being a Hotak and Ahmad Shah Abdali being a Sadozaay is generally mute. If you travel there and discuss his personality with the folks, he and his descendent Ashraf are generally honored even by the rival Fofalzaay faction to this day. Mr. Karzai named his son after Mir Wais. A great example of the era I can give you is that whenever these tribal discussions are brought forth, the local learned people say rubbish and note that Mir Wais's wife was a Dorani Pashtun of Sadozaay blood (I believe). I have not confirmed that last bit of knowledge, but it comes up in discussions. This is not to down play real divisions... for example, Ahmad Khan Sadozai (at the time) and his brother were held in Kandahar by Hotaks... but even Ahmad Shah Dorani gave ostensible praise to Ashraf Hotak when he wrote: Daa Fareed au daa Ashraf daur ba byaa shee (The eras of Farid and Ashraf shall come again [implication is in his rule]).

The other objective evidences I can give you that the ISI/CIA etc had little to do with this Ghilzaay, Dorani division is that Najib was an Amadzaay and even if Omar were by DNA confirmed to be a Hotak, how transfer of power from a non Fofalzaay/Barakzai to another one would stoke an old division has to be dealt with factually.

The death blow to the argument is that the same Ahmad Rashid has a well dilineated table in the back of his book that is not even in need of being utilized if one is from Kandahar and has heard the locals discuss the Kandahar Shura (now Quetta Shura). It shows something very important SXE: the majority, overwhelming majority of subcommanders under Mullah Muhammad Omar were Dorani Pashtuns (e.g. Mullah Baradar is a Fofalzaay). There was no play off of the "old rivalry"

The Hotak/Sadozaay rivalry is a thing of the past generally, like the Hatfield and McCoys in Kentucky or a better example, like the Khattkaan and the Yusufzyaan. You are more likely to hear about a clan on clan fight between Khattaks in Karaak then between the two mega tribes or the two khan khels. It is no longer as clean a division as the Wazir and Mehsud skirmishes and territorialism (even that is something blown out of proportion).

Regarding the existance of Mullah Muhammad Omar:
Anectodally: Karzai's father saw him. He gave some khutbaas at the Jumaa Masjid in rural Pashto. A historical event that bristled many in the Muslim world was his brandishing the cloack of the Prophet Muhammad (S). Osama Bin Ladin met him, and more impartially, Rahimullah Yusufzai was famously, an interveiwer of him. Zaeef, now in government hands, has also clearly met him and refers to his oratory. Turki Al Faisal has met him as well. So to claim that he is a vapor phantom does no justice for a think tank style discussion.

In Kandahar, he is just a regular type guy and even had an official residence. His rising up against the fake mujahideen commanders was celebrated by commoners.

None of these things buttress his credentials to lead an ummah. However, a real world based discussion is necessary to understand the very real problem of the Afghan occupation.

Western journalism has had great difficulty in general, in penetrating the tribal belt and Kandahar region as well. I can give you a clear example, take a look at this picture:

Do you see anything wrong for the name Rateb Popal?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2....html?ref=asia

Thats actually a Taliban official... not the Karzai family member they are talking about. Western journalism has hard a very hard time indeed, with nailing down facts in the Pashtun belt.

Do you see the blank pic under Yama Karzai? There are very few pictures, until now of Yama in existence, but I have personally met the SOB.

This happens all the time in the regions, with pictures of various folks being not utilized correctly or existant at all.

Regarding Deh Rawud: this is the general word on the street of Kandahar as to where his familial hadeerah is. These associations of Sangsar are A) because Sangsar is in Uruzgan and B) it is where he fought his most famous battles. Naw Deh and Sangsar are not too far from each other and Deh Rawud falls to the north of the Kandahar.

Finally, birth place and proof of existence, or even tribal affiliation are not intertwined with a 1:1 correlation. A powerful proof of this is the reported history of Ahmad Shah Abdali’s birth. Non Afghan historians vehemently back Multan as his birth site, in that Zaman Khan, his father, fled there under duress. Their basis is the confirmed existence of his tribesmen that aided him in Panipat that came from Multan (that is historical fact). Afghan historians on the other hand swear by Herat as the birth place. Northern alliance members that are ardent in backing a Khorassaan conversion utilize the Multan birth as propaganda to malign Abdali, and the Pakistanis utilize it for propaganda purposes.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zJU...palzai&f=false

[ScimitarXEdge]

No offense, but there is almost no way to speak to you without being disrespectful.

AHMAD RASHID supports the US war against Afghanistan. Is this who you champion?

this is a complete lie and merely propaganda tactic used by Pakistani ISI servants like yourself. Ahmed Rashid isn't Pro-U.S. Invasion, he's against the ISI's exploitive stratagem, being against the ISI and their Taliban stooges isn't being "Pro-U.S."

"Descent Into Chaos": Ahmed Rashid on How the US Aid to "War on Terror" Ally Pakistan is Aiding the Taliban
This video pretty much exposes everything you're claiming as lies; here Ahmed Rashid tells Amy Goodman that the U.S. Government had facilitated the ISI in resurging the Taliban.

Stop posing as pro Liberation and resistance, you're Pro Pakistani slavehood.

You are no longer worth engaging with. Just because your google/wikipedia BS fails to find info on a man, it means BULL SHIIIT.

That's because everything you've argued has been exposed

No one in Afghanistan LIES about their tribal background. Stuff like that is hard to fabricate

This has nothing to do with anything we're talking about, you committed a straw man fallacy again we're talking about the Pakistani ISI, and their probably made up character Mullah Umar, which would nullify your argument as moot.

You're clearly and obviously a Pakistani slave as evidence at your attempt at diverting

. You really are a frustrated person, when you post sources from people who support the US war on Afghanistan

I use more or less the same sources that you do

even PressTV confirm that the Taliban were manufactured by the ISI
PressTV - Quick Facts: The US and Taliban

Even journalists from The Nation confirm this
The WikiLeaks Papers and the Pakistani Intelligence

and of course Wikileaks, a source even the Taliban themselves expressed support for, that is until they got exposed by them.

WikiLeaks Memos Say Ex-ISI Chief Plotted Karzai Assassination: Daily Outlook, Afghanistan

http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=18038

and claim them to be FACTS, but then deny FACTS and call whatever you don't like as false. This is ridiculously LOW and pathetic.

I use the same sources you do, the problem is you cherry pick stuff which you think make the Taliban look heroic and ignore all the bad stuff the Taliban do.

Your views of the ISI hysteria are only in line with ethnocentric pimps like Saleh and Spanta.

Yet, even Pakhtuns from Pakistan themselves confirm that the ISI supports the Taliban.

Afrasiab Khattak said ISI was saving Taliban from defeat: WikiLeaks | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Continue spitting that crap you pervert.

your told the forum that you let your sisters prance around in soccer shorts in from of Catholic priests and you call me the pervert?

PASHTUN AREAS IN PAKISTAN ARE NOT CONTROLLED BY YOUR PAKISTANI FREINDS

What does that have to do with beghairat Taliban slaves of the ISI?